Kallistos Ware Comes Out For Homosexual Marriage

[gzt]

Met Kallistos is pretty intent on thinking within the Tradition.

 

[Platina]

He's not merely pointing out the questions that will be discussed. He himself is asking the questions, which means he thinks there is no set answer. If he believes there are set answers then he would see the journal issue as unnecessary.

He asks can we really expect homosexuals to be celibate? The fact that he asks that without answering YES means he thinks the answer is not clear. He thinks there is room for homosexual sex, or at the very least that the answer isn't clear. But he has been at this far too long to actually be that ignorant.

Otherwise, that whole section of his foreword is entirely pointless and only misleading and scandalizing the faithful. It's still scandalous of course, but because a metropolitan thinks homosexual sex might be alright.

He's not just talking pastorally. This is theology.

 

[gzt]

That's a pretty aggressive, even hostile, interpretation that doesn't have much basis in reality.

 

[GregConstantine]

He's not merely pointing out the questions that will be discussed. He himself is asking the questions, which means he thinks there is no set answer. If he believes there are set answers then he would see the journal issue as unnecessary.

He asks can we really expect homosexuals to be celibate? The fact that he asks that without answering YES means he thinks the answer is not clear. He thinks there is room for homosexual sex, or at the very least that the answer isn't clear. But he has been at this far too long to actually be that ignorant.

Otherwise, that whole section of his foreword is entirely pointless and only misleading and scandalizing the faithful. It's still scandalous of course, but because a metropolitan thinks homosexual sex might be alright.

He's not just talking pastorally. This is theology.

Right. One could also pose a similar question along the same lines as Ware. For example, can the Church expect single people to be celibate? What if someone never marries? Can we expect them to be celibate?

I'd like to ask anyone here who thinks what Ware is asking is perfectly fine to come out and outright answer Ware's question.

So...We await your answers!

 

[FenderTL5]

I'd like to ask anyone here who thinks what Ware is asking is perfectly fine to come out and outright answer Ware's question.

So...We await your answers!

Done. actually already done in post 171

 

[GregConstantine]

"He asked can we expect homosexuals (or anyone else who is not married because this question can very easily be applied to them) be celibate?"

Please answer this question. Just in case I was not clear before, hopefully this repetition will make it very clear.

 

[All4Christ]

The time I see being most difficult both with same sex marriages (say for example, someone comes in as a convert and is in that situation with marriage outside the Church) where there are kids who are previously adopted by them both - or for example a family with polygamous marriages, is the lack of teaching for how to handle situations like that. The reality is that the former is common in Western society, and the latter happens in some other societies on a regular basis. What is the course of action for situations like that? Obviously, continuing same sex sexual intercourse is wrong - and I’m guessing with the latter, it should be stopped as well. Beyond that, can they live in the same house with brotherly or sisterly love (non-romantic) since there are children who love them? Do we break up families in the sense of having a common household? What is the course of action with these situations?

Honestly, it’s not that far off, and there are situations where people are in non-compatible situations prior to becoming Orthodox. A similar situation would be having missions work in communities that still practice polygamous marriage.

Is now a time where a council should address how we should handle these situations, with love that recognizes that the situations must also be addressed and not ignored?

Honest question - have you heard of a course of action commonly taught by the Church as a whole?

 

[All4Christ]

Before anyone accuses me of being liberal or trying to promote the validity of same sex marriage or polygamous marriages - I am not doing that. I am proposing however that there are situations where it is difficult on all parts - and where there is a lack of definition within the Church of how to pastorally address this. It is something that should be defined so that people interested in Orthodoxy or people trying to come back to the Church can have an answer on how this can be handled. There are not always quick and easy decisions, and these situations shouldn’t be ignored.

These are some situations that certainly should be acknowledged and addressed by the Church as a whole.

 

[GregConstantine]

The time I see being most difficult both with same sex marriages (say for example, someone comes in as a convert and is in that situation with marriage outside the Church) where there are kids who are previously adopted by them both - or for example a family with polygamous marriages, is the lack of teaching for how to handle situations like that. The reality is that the former is common in Western society, and the latter happens in some other societies on a regular basis. What is the course of action for situations like that? Obviously, continuing same sex sexual intercourse is wrong - and I’m guessing with the latter, it should be stopped as well. Beyond that, can they live in the same house with brotherly or sisterly love (non-romantic) since there are children who love them? Do we break up families in the sense of having a common household? What is the course of action with these situations?

Honestly, it’s not that far off, and there are situations where people are in non-compatible situations prior to becoming Orthodox. A similar situation would be having missions work in communities that still practice polygamous marriage.

Is now a time where a council should address how we should handle these situations, with love that recognizes that the situations must also be addressed and not ignored?

Honest question - have you heard of a course of action commonly taught by the Church as a whole?

That's a pastoral issue that quite frankly should be discussed between a bishop and his priests. But, once again, Ware is asking a very specific question. Can We Expect Homosexuals To Be Celibate?" We await the answer to that specific question from those here who think Ware is "keeping with the tradition".

We've already talked about pastoral alternatives that could be done in economia between the pertinent and his or her spiritual father, while staying within and obedience to the teachings of the Church. I've yet to see those who think Ware is keeping with the tradition acknowledge those alternatives.

 

[All4Christ]

That's a pastoral issue that quite frankly should be discussed between a bishop and his priests. But, once again, Ware is asking a very specific question. Can We Expect Homosexuals To Be Celibate?" We await the answer to that specific question from those here who think Ware is "keeping with the tradition".

We've already talked about pastoral alternatives that could be done in economia between the pertinent and his or her spiritual father. I've yet to see those who think Ware is keeping with the tradition acknowledge those alternatives.

Sure, this is a pastoral issue, but it is also something that I don’t believe we have an answer from the Church as a whole. It may be slightly off topic, but it is related and is something that is a valid topic to be addressed by the Church.

It is an honest question that I wish people would not ignore or shrug off as something that is not pertinent to the discussion. I have never seen people take it seriously when I ask. Perhaps I should create a new thread, but it is a controversial subject that I’d prefer to confine to one thread in the forum personally

 

[GregConstantine]

Before anyone accuses me of being liberal or trying to promote the validity of same sex marriage or polygamous marriages - I am not doing that. I am proposing however that there are situations where it is difficult on all parts - and where there is a lack of definition within the Church of how to pastorally address this. It is something that should be defined so that people interested in Orthodoxy or people trying to come back to the Church can have an answer on how this can be handled. There are not always quick and easy decisions, and these situations shouldn’t be ignored.

These are some situations that certainly should be acknowledged and addressed by the Church as a whole.

If you scroll back to the early part of this tread, you'll see a partial possible solution I suggested. I've also suggested other alternative living arrangements, and group counseling done by and for Orthodox Christians struggling with SSA, but I have not seen those who think Ware or anyone else who had said similar things to Ware acknowledge and accept these possible solutions as valid or reasonable possibilities. They keep going back to the question that yet remains unanswered: Can We Expect Homosexuals To Remain Celibate"? We yet again, await the answer.

 

[ArmyMatt]

"He asked can we expect homosexuals (or anyone else who is not married because this question can very easily be applied to them) be celibate?"

Please answer this question. Just in case I was not clear before, hopefully this repetition will make it very clear.

I can answer that. and the answer is yes. I know a guy who struggles with SSA, and he is not a monastic but is celibate.

the only options are celibacy or marriage to the opposite sex. and repentance for when/if you screw up (which we all do).

plus, if straight people can do it, I see no reason why someone with SSA cannot do it.

 

[GregConstantine]

I can answer that. and the answer is yes. I know a guy who struggles with SSA, and he is not a monastic but is celibate.

the only options are celibacy or marriage to the opposite sex. and repentance for when/if you screw up (which we all do).

plus, if straight people can do it, I see no reason why someone with SSA cannot do it.

Thanks for answering Fr! I am hoping that those who think Ware is staying within the tradition also answer this question.

I would say though that there might be possible living arrangements in which someone who is not a monastic, but is celibate and struggles with SSA could live in that would help them in their struggles. A monk has his fellow brothers at the monastery, so he isn't alone. But a lay person, if they don't marry, could be living alone. Some people can do that, but not everyone. This is why I suggested three possible solutions: Living with a family or other single people who you are not in a same sex relationship with, marrying another person of the opposite gender and live as brothers and sisters, having group counseling, or some kind of accountability group, similar to AA. All three will require counseling, confession, and accountability.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Within Christian society broadly (not specifically in the Church) ... the question already seems to be "Can we really expect young people to be celibate before they marry?" Often you are treated as something archaic, or even out of your mind, if you say yes!

But I know many who hold to that standard. It isn't unheard-of, nor is it impossible. I wish this were more well-known and understood.

FWIW, we have at least one (and I think at least two) same-sex attracted persons in our parish, as well as a number of young people not married. What they do in their bedrooms is none of my own business (meaning I'm not asking them) but every seeming expectation and outward indication is that they are all celibate). One of the SSA persons is in Church nearly every time the door is open and I finally realized they don't receive the Eucharist. But again that's not my own business. My point - is that no one shuns or treats any of these people any different from anyone else. I do think the expectation is that everyone not married is celibate.

If anything our parish tended to be more concerned about me, since I was received as a married person without my husband converting. They know of decade or longer times being barred from the Eucharist for marrying outside the Church so some thought I shouldn't be able to receive it either. But that's where their strictness radar is pointed. I don't think it even occurs to some of them that an unmarried person could be sexually involved. But no one cares it would seem if someone struggles against improper attractions.

All things considered, I think it's a good general sentiment about such matters. Since I guess Father has explained to them that I'm not violating any canons.

 

[All4Christ]

If you scroll back to the early part of this tread, you'll see a partial possible solution I suggested. I've also suggested other alternative living arrangements, and group counseling done by and for Orthodox Christians struggling with SSA, but I have not seen those who think Ware or anyone else who had said similar things to Ware acknowledge and accept these possible solutions as valid or reasonable possibilities. They keep going back to the question that yet remains unanswered: Can We Expect Homosexuals To Remain Celibate"? We yet again, await the answer.

I do appreciate the alternatives mentioned, and perhaps if I would like additional answers, I should make a different thread. You are absolutely right about the group counseling being needed, both for this and other sexual passions. If we pursue ways to support people in their journey, it may help with other discussions or concerns regarding SSA and other sins.

 

[GregConstantine]

I do appreciate the alternatives mentioned, and perhaps if I would like additional answers, I should make a different thread. You are absolutely right about the group counseling being needed, both for this and other sexual passions. If we pursue ways to support people in their journey, it may help with other discussions or concerns regarding SSA and other sins.

Absolutely. I would agree with you that the group counseling alternative would be helpful for other passions as well. Another great passion that many people struggle with especially with the advent of the internet is pornography. Porn is a huge problem across the board that doesn't get talked about enough either. Having such an alternative like counseling would be a great help.

We need to support each other outside of going to confession. We are not supposed to sin, go to confession, sin again, go to confession, and keep repeating the cycle. We are supposed to actually stop sinning! (easier said than done right?)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Sure, this is a pastoral issue, but it is also something that I don’t believe we have an answer from the Church as a whole. It may be slightly off topic, but it is related and is something that is a valid topic to be addressed by the Church.

It is an honest question that I wish people would not ignore or shrug off as something that is not pertinent to the discussion. I have never seen people take it seriously when I ask. Perhaps I should create a new thread, but it is a controversial subject that I’d prefer to confine to one thread in the forum personally

Father addressed that briefly with me a few years ago. What he said is that people are accepted as they are, but the expectations of the Church are explained to them. I got the impression that it was usually accepted that the person would have only one fully consummated marriage from that point, but that the expectation may well be that he provide for all if necessary. What happens if that means enforced celibacy on other wives who might not be disposed to it - I'm not sure?

 

[All4Christ]

Absolutely. I would add that the group counseling alternative would be helpful for other passions as well. Another great passion that many people struggle with especially with the advent of the internet is pornography. Porn is a huge problem across the board that doesn't get talked about enough either. Having such an alternative like counseling would be a great help.

We need to support each other outside of going to confession. We are not supposed to sin, go to confession, sin again, go to confession, and keep repeating the cycle. We are supposed to actually stop sinning! (easier said than done right?)

One thing I really appreciate about my old church (before I became Orthodox) is the group counseling they have. It’s called Celebrate Recovery. It is for all passions, habitual sins, or struggles with addiction of all kinds, etc. Of course, there are things I believe we should do differently, but acknowledging that it is needed and pursuing it is very important - and is something I think we should do as well. It really helped a friend of mine who experienced guilt for the sins of her husband and guilt for what he did to her and her family. It meant a lot to have support, understanding and non-condemnation.

 

[GregConstantine]

I would also like to see those here who think Ware is within the tradition to respond to this:

Metropolitan Kallistos and The Wheel – No Other Foundation

 

[Platina]

That's a pretty aggressive, even hostile, interpretation that doesn't have much basis in reality.

It's the only logical way of seeing what he wrote. You ask questions when you don't know the answer, or want people to rethink the answer.

Even stranger, a metropolitan asks the questions, then the journal puts them in the hands of openly "married" homosexuals to answer ...