JST: Joseph Smith changing the words of this book (Revelation)

[RevelationTestament]

If we're saved we're in Christ and we have His spirit.

I have a feeling that Christians say the Lord's Prayer a lot more often than Mormons.

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil:

It is evil to not forgive others. Is a Christian following Satan or Jesus?

John 10
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Matthew 22:39
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Loving and forgiving go hand in hand.

you seem to be skirting the issue that repentance is an ongoing process. That seems to bother you because it implies we might lose our salvation, and we might be punished....
[Here comes the "none can pluck them from my hand proof text...]

 

[EarlyChristianresearcher]

Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (Mormons, LDS), testify that a new line of prophets, like the line up of Old Testament, & New Testament line up of prophets, & apostles, have been restored, as with also the spiritual gifts, & the gospel. They produced new scriptures that testify of Christ & his gospel. People can pray about it & get their own confirmation from the Spirit of Truth. During the centuries after Christ, many things were preserved to a certain extent through the efforts of many saints & good people. But there were also areas where the apostasy legendized many of the doctrines & rituals, the "mysteries."

Many today think that God is done speaking, writing scriptures through prophets & apostles that no more of his words are needed. So, from LDS perspectives, God has said this:

"And because my words shall hiss forth—many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.
But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles?

O ye Gentiles, have ye remembered the Jews, mine ancient covenant people? Nay; but ye have cursed them, and have hated them, and have not sought to recover them. But behold, I will return all these things upon your own heads; for I the Lord have not forgotten my people.
Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews?

Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the earth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth?

Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.

And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.

For I command all men, both in the east and in the west, and in the north, and in the south, and in the islands of the sea, that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.

For behold, I shall speak unto the Jews and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto all nations of the earth and they shall write it.

And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

And it shall come to pass that my people, which are of the house of Israel, shall be gathered home unto the lands of their possessions; and my word also shall be gathered in one. And I will show unto them that fight against my word and against my people, who are of the house of Israel, that I am God, and that I covenanted with Abraham that I would remember his seed forever." (The Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 29:3-14).

We are expecting more to be restored, more to be found, gathered together, & revealed, (Acts 3:19-21). Which is why many of us are interested in these other writings cited by earlier bible writers, & now missing passages of scriptures, cited by early Christians. (I'll save that for another post). For us, the canon is not a closed collection of books, but an open ever growing collection of books, with more to be collected & gathered in the future. We believe all that God has revealed, all he reveals now, & that he will yet reveal many things in the future. (Article of Faith, 9).

Like the Talents in Matthew 25, what are we doing with God's words that we now have, some with more, some with less. Tertullian argued for the "genuineness of the prophecy of Enoch, (ANF 4:15-16, Tertullian, On The Apparel of Women, Book 1, Chapter 3). That the reason the Jews had rejected it was because it testified of Jesus. As for Ezra "...every document of the Jewish Literature is generally agreed to have been restored through Ezra." (ANF 4:15-16). The writings of Enoch were part of the Jewish Literature, (Angelo S. Rappoport, Ph. D., Ancient Israel Myths and Legends, (New York: Bonanza Books, 1987), 3 in 1 vols. Charles Francis Potter, (Rev. & Dr.), The Lost Years of Jesus Revealed, From the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag-Hammadi discoveries,(Greenwhich, Conn.: A Fawcett Gold Medal Book, Fawcett Publications, Inc., 1958, 1962). Potter, Did Jesus Write This Book? A Study of The Book of the Secrets of Enoch, Reappraising it in the light of the Qumran, Chenoboskion, and other recently discovered manuscripts and papyri. (Greenwhich, Conn.: A Fawcett Crest Book, 1965, 1967). Dr. Huge Nibley, Enoch The Prophet, (1986).

Some writers here, treat LDS posters here with little respect & will automatically reject any sources Mormons cite, if it comes from another Mormon writer or scholar. They then set up a standard & demand only "credible" sources. Those sources, which I'm sure will have to be from only Christians sources they accept. Are they to be the only acceptable sources here? But why can't an LDS poster here use the same standard & reject all Christians sources when cited from another Christian? I refuse to be pulled into this type of game because that would limit my chances of learning from my fellow Christian brothers & sisters here, even if I don't agree with everything. I'd rather stay more open minded to new & challenging perspectives, or at least learn to appreciate others' religious points of views, even though I might not ever believe the same ways. So, I'll cite whom I want to cite as being reasons why I believe & testify of what I believe is the truth. But they are my own reasons, not reasons why others have to believe, & nor do I need others' approvals, or will I get pulled into others' strict standards which often end up being double standards anyways, in citing from my own fellow LDS researchers, historians & scholars, & LDS Leaders.

Thus, here's some of the reasons why I believe the canon of scriptures is open, because modern revelations are open. Prophets, often rejected during their days, are open & revelations continue. The testimony of Jesus being the spirit of prophecy. We invite all to at least see what other nations have testified of Christ. That he is the savior of the whole world, not just a certain area only. That's the whole point of the Book of Mormon as a second witness, to the bible, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

 

[Der Alte]

. . . Like the Talents in Matthew 25, what are we doing with God's words that we now have, some with more, some with less. Tertullian argued for the "genuineness of the prophecy of Enoch, (ANF 4:15-16, Tertullian, On The Apparel of Women, Book 1, Chapter 3). That the reason the Jews had rejected it was because it testified of Jesus. As for Ezra "...every document of the Jewish Literature is generally agreed to have been restored through Ezra." (ANF 4:15-16). The writings of Enoch were part of the Jewish Literature, (Angelo S. Rappoport, Ph. D., Ancient Israel Myths and Legends, (New York: Bonanza Books, 1987), 3 in 1 vols. Charles Francis Potter, (Rev. & Dr.), The Lost Years of Jesus Revealed, From the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag-Hammadi discoveries,(Greenwhich, Conn.: A Fawcett Gold Medal Book, Fawcett Publications, Inc., 1958, 1962). Potter, Did Jesus Write This Book? A Study of The Book of the Secrets of Enoch, Reappraising it in the light of the Qumran, Chenoboskion, and other recently discovered manuscripts and papyri. (Greenwhich, Conn.: A Fawcett Crest Book, 1965, 1967). Dr. Huge Nibley, Enoch The Prophet, (1986). . . .

Here you quote from Tertullian to support your false argument but you misquote him, which invalidates the rest of your argument.. Please note the correct way to cite the ECF.

Tertullian, On the Apparel of Women. Book I.Chap. III. - Concerning the Genuineness of “The Prophecy of Enoch.”

I am aware that the Scripture of Enoch, which has assigned this order (of action) to angels, is not received by some, because it is not admitted into the Jewish canon either.
...
If (Noah) had not had this (conservative power) by so short a route, there would (still) be this (consideration) to warrant our assertion of (the genuineness of) this Scripture: he could equally have renewed it, under the Spirit’s inspiration, after it had been destroyed by the violence of the deluge, as, after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian storming of it, every document of the Jewish literature is generally agreed to have been restored through Ezra.

Five Books in Reply to Marcion. Book III. Of the Harmony of the Fathers of the Old and New Testaments.
280 Ezra the seer, doctor of Law, and priest Himself (who, after full times, back did lead The captive People), with the Spirit filled Of memory, restored by word of mouth​

 

[Rescued One]

you seem to be skirting the issue that repentance is an ongoing process. That seems to bother you because it implies we might lose our salvation, and we might be punished....
[Here comes the "none can pluck them from my hand proof text...]

No, I'm not bothered by beliefs of others, because the Holy Spirit is capable of teaching and motivating people. My shepherd leads me in the path He wants me to follow.

 

[EarlyChristianresearcher]

"Here you quote from Tertullian to support your false argument but you misquote him, which invalidates the rest of your argument.. Please note the correct way to cite the ECF."

You took two different citations to claim I misquoted Tertullian. I didn't in the one that I had in mind, which was: "Tertullian argued for the "genuineness of the prophecy of Enoch, (ANF 4:15-16, Tertullian, On The Apparel of Women, Book 1, Chapter 3). That the reason the Jews had rejected it was because it testified of Jesus. As for Ezra "...every document of the Jewish Literature is generally agreed to have been restored through Ezra." (ANF 4:15-16)." As I clarified. You then pulled out another sources which I didn't quote, to claim that I "misquoted" Tertullian, when I didn't even know of the source. But now that you've brought it to our attention, it says that: "Ezra the seer, doctor of Law, and priest Himself (who, after full times, back did lead The captive People), with the Spirit filled Of memory, restored by word of mouth." Restored what?

It's interesting that this thread is about the Word of God. The charge being, did Joseph Smith add to the Book of Revelation, which is often to allege that JS added scriptures to a closed canon. That God can't give additional scriptures, for the Christian world has all that is needed, thus no more prophets are amongst Christians writing canonical scriptures because "the bible says you can't add to it, & if you do, you'll be subjected to the horrors in Rev." That's the basic argument I've heard. I've pointed out other books missing, including the book of Enoch, highly regarded as scriptures by early Christians. Tertullian Against Marcion, Book 3, "280" (280 What? Footnote, page, chapter? Which edition, which translation? How about a link?), is used to claim the way Ezra restored the Book of Enoch? "With the Spirit Of memory, restored by word of mouth." OK, I good with that, he was a prophet. But how about giving us a link.

There is also this interesting section in Tertullian Against Marcion, Book III, chapter XIV: Tertullian cites a portion of David, then suggests that the word of God would be advanced to all lands & nations: "Ride on prosperously in Thy majesty," advancing His word into every land, so as to call all nations: destine to prosper in the success of that faith which recieved Him, and reigning from the fact that he conquered death by His resurrection, thy right hand." says He, "shall wonderfully lead thee forth," even the might of thy Spiritual grace, whereby the knowledge of Christ is spread...." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, p. 333, Tertullian Against Marcion, Book III, chapter XIV).

The imagery that is often depicted in early Christian writings, art works & militant Christ lore & legends is how Christ defeats a personified death, & resurrects the dead. With banner-cross-weapon that defeated the fallen devil, or a personified death under the gates or doors of hades, limbo, purgatory, Christ's victory march throughout the world is underway. He goes forth throughout the world on his victory march, leading the way. Thus, Christ advances his word into every land & nations. Tertullian, who introduced the imagery of Christ kicking down the doors of the underworld, also wrote of Christ going to other nations, & entering into the gates & doors of all nations. He lists a number of areas, then includes divers nations, islands many, to us unknown the knowledge & reign of Christ has been extended too.

Bibliography:

Anna D. Kartsonis, Anastasis, The Making of An Image.

Chandler Rathfon Post, A History of Spanish Painting.

Jeffrey Burton Russell, Satan, The Early Christian Tradition.

P. De Roo, History of America Before Columbus, (J. B. Lippincott Co., 1900).

Darell Thorpe, Christ, The World Wide Wounded Wanderer, (rough draft, 2002). See this section & notes. Also. And.

The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol.3, p.157-8, Tertullian, An Answer to the Jews, chapter vii.


Psalms 16:8-10; 17:4-7; 20:6; 24:3-10; 25:4-5; 68:18; 73:23-4; 89:13; 118:16-21; & Psalm 23. Roselle Williams Crawford, Survival of Legends, (Legends and Their Relation to History, Literature and Life of the Southwest), (San Antonio, Texas:The Naylor Co., 1952), pp. 62-3, see also notes 74 & 79, & p.82, which makes reference to R. H. Schauffler's book: Christmas, N.Y. 1907).
Geoffrey R. King, The Forty Days, 15-20. The Golden Legend, medieval poetry about Christ's descent into hell, and of him bursting through the doors of hell to free the captive spirits held there. History of America Before Columbus, P. D. Roo, 1900, Vol.1, p. 205-9; Isaiah 13:2; 45:1-3, Tertullian, Adversus Judaeos, in vol.2 of Patrologiae Latina, 650; Epistle of Barnabas A.D. 100, cites from Isaiah, "...And again saith the prophet, "I will go before thee & make level the mountains, & will break the brazen gates, & bruise in pieces the iron bars; & I will give thee the secret, hidden, invisible treasures, that they may know that I am the Lord God." (Isa. xlv. 2-3). Later the writer of this Epistle cites from David's psalms "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit at My right hand, until I make Thine enemies Thy footstool." (Psa.cx:1 & Matt.22:43-5). "And again, thus saith Isaiah, "Thy Lord said to Christ," my Lord, whose right hand I have holden," (Codex Sinaitius, Latin Text has, "he has taken hold"), that the nations should yield obedience before Him; & I will break in pieces the strength of kings." (Isa.xlv.1), "Behold how David calleth Him Lord & the Son of God." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers 1: p.144 & 145, chap.11, & 12, The Ep. of Barnabas, Justin Martyr, p. 207). Tertullian [A.D. 145-220], The Ante-Nicene Fathers, 3: p.40, Tertullian, Apology chap. xxvi; p.156, An Answer to the Jews, chapter v; see also: Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; Luke 24:45-48; Psalm 19:4; Romans 10:18.

 

[lilmissmontana]

Good question. God continues to speak through the Holy Spirit, who is our counselor and comforter.

I don't believe the Holy Spirit would going to reveal anything to us the Lord didn't ... true revelations must line up with the Word ... not change it ... or alter it ... or rearrange it or whatever ... God doesn't divide Himself anymore than the enemy does ... a house divided won't stand ... and didn't Jesus say somewhere if there were more He would have told us ... or something like that ...

i'm very thankful for this thread ... I have a dear friend who joined the Mormon church a few years ago ... when I asked her if she was sure Jesus told her to, her response was, "yes, david (her dead ex-husband) came in a dream and told her to ... of course, my response was 'seriously!' but, i was uneducated and didn't really know how to handle it ... just knew that was a red alert to me ... as time moved on she continued to go ... and I became more and more alarmed at what I heard ... so I started coming here to this forum to collect verses and such ... and went with her three times ... sooooo much disturbed me ... anyway, we're in a new place ... and she is seeing some things for herself ... the friend who involved her fights hard to keep her in the church ... she won't go because the Lord finally opened her eyes to the understanding she needs to understand these things for HERSELF ... keeping her eyes on Jesus only ... i'm sorry if this is OT ... I just wanted to let you know how I use threads like this ... as they feed her ... I collect the verses on the subject from here ... and then present them to her to study for herself ...thank you for all the effort you put into this ... the more she does that ... the more she realizes ...

 

[lilmissmontana]

Even if that Bible is against the True Gospel or against Christianity in general? What about the Satanic Bible? or how about a Bible that contradicts the true Bible's teaching?

totally ... is the Koran not considered a Bible ...

i believe the Lord can use all scriptures form all Bibles how He chooses ... that the accountability is with the 'changer' or author ... not with the person who has no knowledge of these things ... they are babes of God being made to stumble ... and that with knowledge comes accountability ... once we know, we should know better ... I also believe knowing if the Word you are studying is as accurate as possible is crucial ... the Word teaches us about sheep and wolves ... the wolves pick off the babes before they can become strong and useful ... i know i felt like my friend was 'picked off' before she know what she was doing ... we also know of the Kenites ... surely we must understand they will have their finger in all this ... so when things happen like the word Lucifer being removed ... or scriptures mistranslated like the examples given in this thread ... well, why should we not believe some do change the Word ... for their own purpose ...

 

[ivanc0]

Revelation 22 (KJV) says:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:


19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.


=======

The LDS Joseph Smith Translation both adds and subtracts from the Book of Revelation. I will illustrate this in this thread with examples.


EXAMPLE ONE: Adding Words to the Book


JST Rev 1:7

7 For behold, he cometh in the clouds with ten thousands of his saints in the kingdom, clothed with the glory of his Father. And every eye shall see him; and they who pierced him, and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

Revelation 1: 7 (KJV)

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

Revelation 1:7 (Greek Text)

ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται μετὰ τῶν νεφελῶν καὶ ὄψεται αὐτὸν πᾶς ὀφθαλμὸς καὶ οἵτινες αὐτὸν ἐξεκέντησαν καὶ κόψονται ἐπ’ αὐτὸν πᾶσαι αἱ φυλαὶ τῆς γῆς ναί ἀμήν​

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The text in red in the JST is added. Can any LDS cite ONE ancient manuscript that supports this addition? If not Joseph is deserving of the Plagues of Revelation.

This Argument is a complete fallacy, at the moment of writing the bible did not yet exist, so one book of the bible will forbid another to be added,
Unfortunately your logic is very poor, the passages refer to the book by the author not the bible.

You need to get a valid argument if you want to show the wrong with Mormonism, out of place arguments will not help at all.

 

[Tallguy88]

MOD HAT ON

Since this forum has changed, this thread is now off topic. LDS issues can only be discussed in Christianity and World religions.

Thread closed.

MOD HAT OFF