Jonathan Loved David

Jerrell

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God does not just sit up there and leave us in our sins. My Church is full of testimonies of how God can change people. My Pastor used to be in a band, smoke stuff...sleep around...but look at what God has done! Another used to curse, party, drink, smoke, but look at what God has done! Another use to fornicate, commit adultery but look at what God has done!

God saves alot of people from their sins. And although we all continue to sin, we do not continue to live in sin- we don't practice it willingly. And alot of things he saves us from completely, i saw a man on TV, who at one time was Gay, but when he got saved he ceased it right then, and now he's married with children- God can do anything.
 
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Jakkaru

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And that doesn't concern you at all?

Nope.

I disagree. True benevolence acts to secure the greatest good.

If you wish to debate me on the true benevolence of god I will meet you in the debate forum.

No, I get the point. You're missing the point. We all understand that you may or may not have been born with certain predispositions to a specific sin, but it is still by your choice that you choose to engage in that sin.

This is true. I don't CHOOSE who I am attracted to but I can choose to engage in them, but here is the thing. I won't date women and can't, it's icky. If I married one, it would be false love which would be a sin anyway and I am not planning on living alone and celibate my entire life.

Because that's what justice is. It punishes violations of the law.

In the debate forum, if you wish.


Of course it will appear to be flawed when you judge it by a flawed standard. You're judging from the point of view of someone who wants to justify his sin so, naturally, it will seem flawed to you.

Debate forum.


God gave you life. He gave you this wonderful world you live in. He sustains your life. He gave His only son in order to demonstrate His great love for you, even while you continue to rebel against Him.

How is being gay rebelling against God, that is so petty.

You're confusing a momentary moral lapse with a lifestyle of willful disobedience.

Of course the Christian sins because as long as we have this body of flesh, we have the sin nature that goes along with it.

However, the difference between the sin of a Christian and the unrepentant sinful lifestyle is the difference between falling into a swimming pool and diving into it.

This is true. But Christians never really change. Other religions strive toward something, enlightenment, inner peace, something, Christians have to make no effort and if they mess up, oh well they can just ask forgiveness, but it's kind of a moot point, my "sin" is my entire lifestyle rather then something finite like stealing.

The unrepentant sinner will always love his sin and try to justify it, even if it means cursing the one who gave him life and holds out the free offer of salvation, while the Christian battles against his flesh and is horrified by his sin.

I don't love my sin. I would much rather be straight, no sane person would choose to be gay with all the prejudice and homophobia, but trying to deny what you are causes pain and misery which I thought is what SIN was supposed to do. My lifestyles shouldn't hurt anyone if they love me, it doesn't hurt others, it makes me feel at one with myself so why should God care.

It looks as though you've pretty much made up your mind that you don't care what God says and you don't care what His judgement will be so I guess the only question I have left is, what do you hope to gain by continuing here?

I like helping people and this thread still exist, plus I feel a debate coming on.
 
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WarEagle

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If you wish to debate me on the true benevolence of god I will meet you in the debate forum.

No, not really. I don't see any point in debating the character of God with someone who won't even admit that He exists, or who insists on judging God's character through his own fractured lens.

This is true. I don't CHOOSE who I am attracted to but I can choose to engage in them, but here is the thing. I won't date women and can't, it's icky. If I married one, it would be false love which would be a sin anyway and I am not planning on living alone and celibate my entire life.

And that's a choice you have to make.

How is being gay rebelling against God, that is so petty.

It is rebelling against God because God has already told you that it is wrong.

This is true. But Christians never really change.

That's odd. I'm around Christians all the time and the changes I see in them from the way they were before they were Christians is amazing.

If there's no change, then they're probably not born again.

I like helping people and this thread still exist, plus I feel a debate coming on.

Except that you're not allowed to debate in this forum and I don't see anything in your posts that's going to help anyone.
 
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heron

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Middle school and early high school days definetly prove the quote "The female of the species is more deadly then the male".
^_^ ROFL. And we like it that way! ;)
What I DO like about their personalities is girls are quick to share their emotion and discuss their feelings which I like, guys on a whole are bound to that macho stereotype of not having feelings.
Well gay guys can be mean too so don't get too comfortable in accepting each one will be kind to you but the thing about gay guys is we aren't trying to impress you, we just want to be a friend. :)
Yes, that zone keeping relationships unposessive is nice. I've run into some tough dealings too -- certainly no reason to lump everyone together.
The video is in my profile.
Arg! I looked for it there. I'll look again.

One reason I always loved the bible, the heros where NEVER purely or soley good as they are in books. In fact some of them where the worst sinners out there and most of the time.. they did not want to be prophets. :cool:
So true! I've noticed that contemporary Christianity has veered away from this humility a bit -- Christians used to appreciate that vulnerability so much more.
It all may have worked out if I had told them rather then being outed.
It sounds like someone told your parents out of spite.
Smiting people does not sound like benevolence to me no matter how you pitch it.
It's a different topic, but think about movies like Blood Diamond, or Last Samurai -- they deal with issues of purer justice and who has power over the people.

We skim over stories in the Bible, but barely grasp the intensity of how people were oppressed by the injustices smited against. People sacrificed children to Molech, overcharged taxes to keep the weak in line, lied about prophecy, drove respectable land-owning people into slavery...

Things had to be set right.
He sits up there and doesn't fix us or cure us of sin, he lets it to fester and allows it to do without any resistance from his point.
The approach He took is one that we resist.

He put the action into our hands. He gave the Laws of Moses for us to administer, brings prophecies to warn when we get way out of hand, puts His Spirit in our hearts for conviction and foresight, and then provides complete redemption through Jesus' sacrifice.

He could rewire our brains to be more considerate of each other, but that plan would appear even more flawed.

I spent a few years in a church situation that was so intense and communal, everyone helped each other out with everything. Moving, wedding receptions, taking in kids who were not handling life at home well, driving each other to doctor appointments, growing vegetables...

There were plenty of other flaws, but it helped me see that when everyone has the set of precepts -- the same premise and intent, a society runs SO much more smoothly -- the poor are taken care of, offenders are counseled, and there is so much less suffering. The laws can actually work.

God was involved in making the world better, but people chose to resist His involvement.

God saves alot of people from their sins.
...And then there are these miraculous interventions.

There is no growth without hardship.
Definitely. That's a concept that runs through nature too -- how our muscles build, how we become proficient through studying, how roots grow deeper into the ground.

It looks as though you've pretty much made up your mind that you don't care what God says and you don't care what His judgement will be so I guess the only question I have left is, what do you hope to gain by continuing here?
The thread was not about the OP's personal decision. The thread was a question about a Bible passage, and it got turned into a personal attack.
I like helping people and this thread still exist
I believe that you do like helping people, and one personal choice does not define the entire realm of who you are.
 
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dvd_holc

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It seems that the culture has been lost in your eyes, Jakkaru. Each of the items that was removed from Jonathan and put on David were items specifically symbolic in the blood covenant. Blood covenants were not just a Hebrew thing, but they were used throughout the whole world for centuries. When someone made a blood covenant with another person it did not mean sexual. However, marriage is a form of a blood covenant is sexual. But marriage is not the blood covenant that Jonathan and David had. Go back and learn about blood covenants before you make any accusations. That will be sufficient start...though more can be said.

PS...heron, though I agreed with you for a long time...this story is one of the weakest cases for homosexuality in the bible if you actually know the history.
 
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Jakkaru

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No, not really. I don't see any point in debating the character of God with someone who won't even admit that He exists, or who insists on judging God's character through his own fractured lens.

So after all the personal attacks, that is it? No? Come one bigshot, you have a "heathen" interested in what you have to say, convince me. You say I see God through a fractured lense but at the same time you haven't heard my arguments at all which are based on logic and reason, just becuase someone sees God differant then you does not mean they are delluded, that is an arrogant's folly.

It is rebelling against God because God has already told you that it is wrong.

Why should it be wrong? I understand almost all sins, killing ends someons life and is bad, stealing is taking property that does not belong to you and harms someone, rape, blaspheming the holy spirit, etc. All these things, but what does homosexuality do? Nothing, it doesn't hurt me or anyone else and it makes me feel comfortable with myself.

That's odd. I'm around Christians all the time and the changes I see in them from the way they were before they were Christians is amazing.

Me as well. My uncle for example, God changed his life for the better alot, but the change I was talking about was of a more profound level.

If there's no change, then they're probably not born again.

More then likely.

Except that you're not allowed to debate in this forum and I don't see anything in your posts that's going to help anyone.

I don't want to debate in this forum, I said quite cleary let us take it to the debate forum. Also, as a Christians why do you feel the need to be such a jerk to me? I haven't done anything to you and even admitted along time ago that you where right and I am helping people elsewhere on the board whenever advice is asked.


^_^ ROFL. And we like it that way! ;)

:eek: -runs and hides-

Yes, that zone keeping relationships unposessive is nice. I've run into some tough dealings too -- certainly no reason to lump everyone together.

I see.

Arg! I looked for it there. I'll look again.

It's in my little video thing..ya can't miss it.

So true! I've noticed that contemporary Christianity has veered away from this humility a bit -- Christians used to appreciate that vulnerability so much more.

-nods- Another good example and even though you don't find him canon, Mohammed of Islam is the same way. He actually thinks he is going insane when God starts speaking to him. =P

It sounds like someone told your parents out of spite.

No it was an accident. I was dating behind their back. My mom came up to my work one day which is a movie theater and I took Scott to aot of movies. My manager let slip assuming my folks knew, "Oh.. him and Scott are so cute together" so as I come home one day I hear the lovely question, "Who's Scott?" :cry:

It's a different topic, but think about movies like Blood Diamond, or Last Samurai -- they deal with issues of purer justice and who has power over the people.

-nods-

We skim over stories in the Bible, but barely grasp the intensity of how people were oppressed by the injustices smited against. People sacrificed children to Molech, overcharged taxes to keep the weak in line, lied about prophecy, drove respectable land-owning people into slavery...

-nods-

Things had to be set right. The approach He took is one that we resist.

-nods-


He put the action into our hands. He gave the Laws of Moses for us to administer, brings prophecies to warn when we get way out of hand, puts His Spirit in our hearts for conviction and foresight, and then provides complete redemption through Jesus' sacrifice.

Some people just aren't satisfied are they... -shifty eyes-.

I spent a few years in a church situation that was so intense and communal, everyone helped each other out with everything. Moving, wedding receptions, taking in kids who were not handling life at home well, driving each other to doctor appointments, growing vegetables...

Me and a few of my friends are like that but we all kind of love eachother like brothers and sisters so it's expected. One of them once drove 400 miles to pick me up when my car broke down and refused for me to pay gas money. :hug:

The thread was not about the OP's personal decision. The thread was a question about a Bible passage, and it got turned into a personal attack.
I believe that you do like helping people, and one personal choice does not define the entire realm of who you are.

Thank you heron. -hugs-
 
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Jerrell

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...I want to show them I am not a sinner.​

Ro 3:23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

1jo 1:6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

1jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
 
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WarEagle

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So after all the personal attacks, that is it?

So then, I'll appeal to the other posters here:

Can anyone here please show me where I've attacked jakkaru?

Better yet, if any mods are watching, I ask you to look through my posts and, if you find that I've attacked him in any way, please punish me accordingly.
 
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