Jonathan Loved David

[Jakkaru]

As a gay teenager I hear it all the time from Christians how I am sinning and will burn in hell for who I am attracted to which I find funny, that God would make me this way and condemn me for it. The Bible has often been used as a weapon to condemn homosexuality as sinful or immoral. It is often overlooked and even outrightly denied that some of the heroes in the Bible were themselves homosexual. The story of Jonathan and David is one of the more obvious cases.

For the sake of simplicity, I'll let the Bible itself unfold most of the story.​

After David's heroic victory over the Philistine giant, Goliath, in 1 Samual, Chapter 17, David meets Jonathan for the first time.​

1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul. 2 And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father's house. 3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. 4 And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle. - 1 Samuel 18: 1-4​

Their souls are knit together, they love each other so much that they made a covenant with each other, and Jonathan, son of the King, strips before David, who is much lower in rank and status.​

In the next passages, David's popularity and military achievements are advanced, and King Saul starts getting jealous of all the attention being paid to David. In order to trap him, Saul makes David his son-in-law by giving him his daughter, Michal, to wed.​

Some people may stop right here and say that if David married Michal, it's proof that he didn't have a homosexual relationship with Jonathan. There are several flaws to this argument. First, their marriage was probably only political. Saul offers his daughter's hand in marriage only as part of a greater plot to get at David. And while it was said that Michal loved David, the Bible never says that he loved her back. Also, we know from other ancient cultures such as the Greeks and even the Philistines, that heterosexual marriages weren't necessarily exclusive. It's very possible that David could have been bisexual.​

In 1 Samuel 19, Saul tries to kill David, and David eventually flees in 1 Samuel 20.​

1 And David fled from Naioth in Ramah, and came and said before Jonathan, What have I done? what is mine iniquity? and what is my sin before thy father, that he seeketh my life? 2 And he said unto him, God forbid; thou shalt not die: behold, my father will do nothing either great or small, but that he will shew it me: and why should my father hide this thing from me? it is not so. 3 And David sware moreover, and said, Thy father certainly knoweth that I have found grace in thine eyes; and he saith, Let not Jonathan know this, lest he be grieved: but truly as the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, there is but a step between me and death. 4 Then said Jonathan unto David, Whatsoever thy soul desireth, I will even do it for thee. - 1 Samuel 20: 3-4​

David and Jonathan continue talking about what to do about Jonathan's father. Then they part ways so Jonathan can go somewhere safe. Again they make a covenant with each other, and swear their love for each other. Jonathan loved David "as he loved his own soul".​

16 So Jonathan made a covenant with the house of David, saying, Let the LORD even require it at the hand of David's enemies. 17 And Jonathan caused David to swear again, because he loved him: for he loved him as he loved his own soul. - 1 Samuel 20: 16-17​

In the next passages, they plan to meet again so that Jonathan can let David know whether he should come back safe from Saul, or whether he should go away. And Jonathan talks to his father. Saul tells Jonathan that he is confused in his love for David. He also says that as long as David is around, Jonathan won't establish his lineage or kingdom. This certainly has all the elements of a coming out story.​

30 Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness? 31 For as long as the son of Jesse liveth upon the ground, thou shalt not be established, nor thy kingdom. Wherefore now send and fetch him unto me, for he shall surely die. - 1 Samuel 20: 30-31​

Jonathan warns David that his father is still angry, and that he's not safe. They reaffirm their covenant to each other, kiss each other, cry over the situation, and I'm not even going to try to interpret what it might mean when the passage says "David exceeded".​

41 And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded. 42 And Jonathan said to David, Go in peace, forasmuch as we have sworn both of us in the name of the LORD, saying, The LORD be between me and thee, and between my seed and thy seed for ever. And he arose and departed: and Jonathan went into the city. 1 Samuel 20: 41-42​

In 2 Samuel 1, David hears about the death of Saul and Jonathan in battle. He mourns their deaths, and remembers his times together with Jonathan stating that Jonathan's love for him was stronger than Jonathan's love for women.​

25 How are the mighty fallen in the midst of the battle! O Jonathan, thou wast slain in thine high places. 26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women. 2 Samuel 1:26

My question is, well basically..is anyone seeing the same thing I am here?



Also I don't ask this question out of purely selfish reasons or to "prove anyone wrong", it's just my parents are Christians and becuase of who I am they have basically disowned me and I want to show them I am not a sinner.
​

 

[BAFRIEND]

There is absolutely no proof that there was a homosexual relationship there. It is just a political opinion. I have had some very close friends in my time, related and cried with them. Are we going to infer that in every incident it involved having sex or being sexually active ?

Would you also take all the family expressions of friendship or acts of charity in the Bible to be a defense for incest ?

 

[heron]

I see what you are saying, but I will still make a few comments.

And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.

Jonathan was son of the king. Whether you add a relationship to this or not, taking off royal garments was a sign of humility, allowing himself to be on a level with the citizens.


Robe - "a garment worn over a tunic by men of rank"
Jonathan removed what symbolized his rank, and even handed it over to another.


Sword - Removing his sword was the same as removing a weapon would be today -- handing over a knife at the airport or courthouse, a gun before meeting with a casino owner. It is a sign of trust, good will, and temporarily yielding to their authority or power. That is quite a statement for the royal family.

Bow-- This was used for battle, but also for hunting. Jonathan put time into honing his archery skills. Giving up what he prided himself in was not just losing his hunting equipment, but similar to giving up his favorite guitar.

The verses after this showed how Saul, the father, entrusted David with responsibilities in the kingdom, and then became jealous of David's popularity in the kingdom.

I know that I am distracting from your point, but there are similar themes in the Jewish law, recognizing that many house servants were like husiness managers, advisors, administrative assistants, personal assistants, and bodyguards when businesses were run on personal real estate. Servants become so close to the family that they were sometimes heirs to the business or family estate.

Most of us recognize that there are friends who are so dear to us that we consider them family. I consider some of my kids' friends as close as family, just as Saul did... but if they started to demean me in front of my friends and try to claim ownership of my house, I would stop that attitude quickly.

It doesn't disprove your point, but having dear friends is a very universal concept.

Some people may stop right here and say that if David married Michal, it's proof that he didn't have a homosexual relationship with Jonathan. There are several flaws to this argument.

True. David was a passionate personality type, and his weaknesses tended toward lack of personal restraint. (Bathsheba)

This certainly has all the elements of a coming out story.

"And Saul cast a javelin at him to smite him:" Lol, yes it does. It's extrapolating, but it does. Remember that Saul wouldn't let David go back home to see his family, so David had to escape. So there was a clear element of injustice that David wanted Jonathan's support with.

I'm not even going to try to interpret what it might mean when the passage says "David exceeded".

Here's Green's literal translation:
"The boy left, and David rose up from the south side. And he fell on his face to the ground. And he bowed three times. And they each one kissed his friend. And they each wept on his friend, until David was overcome ."

The next verse, they talk about their seed -- assuming both will have children and lineage.

Hebrew definition links:
When the lad was gone, David rose from the south side and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed three times. And they kissed each other and wept together *, but David wept the more.

In the term "each other" is found this definition:

--[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] friend, companion, fellow, another person

1. friend, intimate
2. fellow, fellow-citizen, another person (weaker sense)
3. other, another (reciprocal phrase)

[/FONT]

Also I don't ask this question out of purely selfish reasons or to "prove anyone wrong", it's just my parents are Christians and becuase of who I am they have basically disowned me and I want to show them I am not a sinner.

Thanks for being so open about it. You probably found the strongest argument for it within the Bible, but I don't think any argument will change how your parents relate to you.

I would guess that they feel pressure from certain peers, whose minds they can't change... and fear that God has certain expecations of them, in raising their kids. Even if they loved you unconditionally, some of those things would crop up. In every group, there will be at least one person who intimidates others to conforming to their ideals.

Most parents of 16-year olds are amazed that their kids are so capable of taking adult-level courses, when it only seems like a couple years since they put them on the kindergarten bus. They are probably not just reacting to your choice, but to sexual activity in general, and fears of diseases.

When I was in high school, my parents took in a teen, and he was loved by all of us, similarly to Jonathan. He was so much fun to have around. When he left for college, he moved into a house of guys, and the next thing we knew, he had died of AIDS.

Your parents have a lot of thoughts bouncing around in their minds, but it's not just about a religious disapproval. Look into their fears.

 

[Jakkaru]

I see what you are saying, but I will still make a few comments.

And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.

Jonathan was son of the king. Whether you add a relationship to this or not, taking off royal garments was a sign of humility, allowing himself to be on a level with the citizens.


Robe - "a garment worn over a tunic by men of rank"
Jonathan removed what symbolized his rank, and even handed it over to another.


Sword - Removing his sword was the same as removing a weapon would be today -- handing over a knife at the airport or courthouse, a gun before meeting with a casino owner. It is a sign of trust, good will, and temporarily yielding to their authority or power. That is quite a statement for the royal family.

Bow-- This was used for battle, but also for hunting. Jonathan put time into honing his archery skills. Giving up what he prided himself in was not just losing his hunting equipment, but similar to giving up his favorite guitar.

The verses after this showed how Saul, the father, entrusted David with responsibilities in the kingdom, and then became jealous of David's popularity in the kingdom.

I know that I am distracting from your point, but there are similar themes in the Jewish law, recognizing that many house servants were like husiness managers, advisors, administrative assistants, personal assistants, and bodyguards when businesses were run on personal real estate. Servants become so close to the family that they were sometimes heirs to the business or family estate.

Most of us recognize that there are friends who are so dear to us that we consider them family. I consider some of my kids' friends as close as family, just as Saul did... but if they started to demean me in front of my friends and try to claim ownership of my house, I would stop that attitude quickly.

It doesn't disprove your point, but having dear friends is a very universal concept.

True. David was a passionate personality type, and his weaknesses tended toward lack of personal restraint. (Bathsheba)


"And Saul cast a javelin at him to smite him:" Lol, yes it does. It's extrapolating, but it does. Remember that Saul wouldn't let David go back home to see his family, so David had to escape. So there was a clear element of injustice that David wanted Jonathan's support with.



Here's Green's literal translation:
"The boy left, and David rose up from the south side. And he fell on his face to the ground. And he bowed three times. And they each one kissed his friend. And they each wept on his friend, until David was overcome ."

The next verse, they talk about their seed -- assuming both will have children and lineage.

Hebrew definition links:
When the lad was gone, David rose from the south side and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed three times. And they kissed each other and wept together *, but David wept the more.

In the term "each other" is found this definition:

--[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Geneva] friend, companion, fellow, another person

1. friend, intimate
2. fellow, fellow-citizen, another person (weaker sense)
3. other, another (reciprocal phrase)

[/FONT]Thanks for being so open about it. You probably found the strongest argument for it within the Bible, but I don't think any argument will change how your parents relate to you.

I would guess that they feel pressure from certain peers, whose minds they can't change... and fear that God has certain expecations of them, in raising their kids. Even if they loved you unconditionally, some of those things would crop up. In every group, there will be at least one person who intimidates others to conforming to their ideals.

Most parents of 16-year olds are amazed that their kids are so capable of taking adult-level courses, when it only seems like a couple years since they put them on the kindergarten bus. They are probably not just reacting to your choice, but to sexual activity in general, and fears of diseases.

When I was in high school, my parents took in a teen, and he was loved by all of us, similarly to Jonathan. He was so much fun to have around. When he left for college, he moved into a house of guys, and the next thing we knew, he had died of AIDS.

Your parents have a lot of thoughts bouncing around in their minds, but it's not just about a religious disapproval. Look into their fears.

I have tried to reason with them but they always come back to the "what the bible says" argument, not so much me and what I need. I have addressed that just becuase I am gay does not mean I have sexual relations with every guy, I am one for true love, I have addressed that I am not a pervert, nor stupid and any other fears one may have about their child be gay but they only really care about what God says. It can be abit unnerving from the outside perspective of it to have your folks not understand and accept you becuase of a book. Personally myself I am an athiests but I do take merit in the bible and alot of what it says, probaly another reaosn they don't accept me.

Anyway back to my little argument here.

He did not just remove his sword and bo and robe, it clearly says garments and girdle.

Back in those times, a girdle was a form of underwear or scanty belt-shaped textile for men and/or women, worn on its own, not holding a larger garment in place, and even less revealing than then a loincloth. Also in those times a girdle usually in women was a sign of virginity. So yes reading this passage I am convinced that he got naked before David. Does it ever clearly state the two had sexual relations? No, of course not but it definetly hints and one or some kind of romantic relationship.

 

[prophecystudent]

The bible is very clear about homosexuality being a sin. There is no question. Trying to justify one's behavior by taking portions of scripture out of context does not make it any less a sin.

Perhaps you would be better served if you read in the New Testament where it says we are to hate the sin but love the sinner.

Have you considered that as a athiest, according to your parents and my belief you will end up in hell. Have you considered that your parents are very concerned and frightened for you?

If they have disowned you, that is unfortunate and is not based on bible teaching. Jesus said we are to forgive those who sin against us 70 X 7 time. That means that we are continue to forgive them. We judges conduct and actions, not individuals.

I have had homosexuals that worked for me. I knew they were homosexual and they knew that I knew. In fact, we had several discussions about it. My position was then, as now, that it was my job to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His salvation. Not to judge them as individuals.

When I left that management position there was not a dry eye in the whole group, mine included.

In short, you are in mortal danger of spending eternity in the lake of fire. Not for being a homosexual, but for denying Christ.

Fred

 

[heron]

I have tried to reason with them but they always come back to the "what the bible says" argument, not so much me and what I need.

There's such a diverse range of how different Christians would address this, but I've seen people deal with it this way, and it's definitely a painful time in the whole family. It's true that there are Christians who feel that what sits under their roof must have an approval stamp.

It sounds like they are trying to use the same tactics they did when you were eight, to steer you in a certain direction, and they are frustrated that you are old now and not as malleable. I think that if it wasn't this one thing, it would be something else that they would be frustrated over; it's a weird transition for parents to get used to their kids growing up.

I know, it's about religion ... but I don't think it totally is. I think that's what makes a clear rule in their head that helps them solidify their decisions and stances. It will grow easier over time, I think.

I have addressed that just becuase I am gay does not mean I have sexual relations with every guy, I am one for true love, I have addressed that I am not a pervert, nor stupid and any other fears one may have about their child be gay but they only really care about what God says.
Can you imagine how they would react if you were promiscuous... :o
It can be abit unnerving from the outside perspective of it to have your folks not understand and accept you because of a book.
Yes. But then, I remember my mother telling me that I couldn't be in school plays because Dr. Spock said it would go to my head and I would get prideful. Not sure he really said that, lol... btw, I mean the child behavior expert, not the vulcan.

Personally myself I am an athiests but I do take merit in the bible and alot of what it says, probaly another reaosn they don't accept me.
It's nice that you are weighing each element of things -- sorting out the truths from the percieved truths. It is good to have understanding and wisdom like this.

Anyway back to my little argument here.
Aw, darn.

He did not just remove his sword and bo and robe, it clearly says garments and girdle.
Yeah... I tried to look that up but didn't get far. One definition said a girdle was leather, but it wasn't the same word used.

Back in those times, a girdle was a form of underwear or scanty belt-shaped textile for men and/or women, worn on its own, not holding a larger garment in place, and even less revealing than then a loincloth. Also in those times a girdle usually in women was a sign of virginity. So yes reading this passage I am convinced that he got naked before David. Does it ever clearly state the two had sexual relations? No, of course not but it definetly hints and one or some kind of romantic relationship.

Well, it goes far enough to make me uncomfortable with the revealing imagery, :oso I'm not going to argue with you....even though I interpret it a different way. David was also known for a little dance he did out in public in his skivvies... which I don't think was translated well, because it says ephod (priests's robe).

But he tended to be more exuberant and demonstrative than your average king.
2 Samuel 6:14

He wasn't always right or obedient.... the story just reads as an account of his life and ventures.
2Sa 5:13 And David took him more concubines and wives out of Jerusalem, after he was come from Hebron: and there were yet sons and daughters born to David. (Then his son Solomon went way off the deep end with women... 1Ki 11:8)

Anyway, I can't imagine how painful it must be for your parents to treat you as unacceptable and in need of change. Just give some time for the situation to work itself out, and make wise decisions that will improve your future. I hope that the tension in the household settles out soon.

While you're waiting, think of how you'd feel if you had kids, and one of them became a Christian.

 

[Adoniram]

He did not just remove his sword and bo and robe, it clearly says garments and girdle.

Back in those times, a girdle was a form of underwear or scanty belt-shaped textile for men and/or women, worn on its own, not holding a larger garment in place, and even less revealing than then a loincloth. Also in those times a girdle usually in women was a sign of virginity. So yes reading this passage I am convinced that he got naked before David. Does it ever clearly state the two had sexual relations? No, of course not but it definetly hints and one or some kind of romantic relationship.

The word "girdle" is a bit of a mistranslation. The Hebrew word "chagor" in this instance more accurately means "a belt for the waist," or his "armor belt." You have to read it in the context of the words around it which mention his sword and bow. So the passage does not mean that he took his underwear off and got naked.

The love David and Jonathon had was as between two close brothers. You can try to rationalize all you want, but there is no way David and Jonathon entered into a homosexual relationship. The Bible is very explicit in it's condemnation of homosexuality and you can be sure that if David had committed any such act, God would have dealt with him harshly just as he did when he had the adulterous affair with Bathsheba.

That being said, homosexuality is a forgivable offense. God can cleanse and redeem you from any and all sin. But if you continue as an atheist, you have bigger problems than homosexuality. I would encourage you to consider that when your parents talk about "what the Bible says," they are indeed thinking about what is best for you. Would you expect them to offer no caution as they watch you walk a path that leads to destruction and hell? What kind of love would that be? In light of your atheism, they are absolutely right to be concerned about you and what you need. You should listen to them.

 

[PostTribber]

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

...welcome to the human race. there is a sin all of us struggle with, and even though Christ saved us, the struggle will continue until we die, because the struggle is in our flesh. homosexuality is not the only sin that defeats us, but all sexual sin, and lying, murder, gluttony, gossip, stealing, the list goes on and on. none of us are invincible. but we can resist temptation. and when we do, the devil flee's from us. we ahve God's promise on that. where we are weak is in faith, and strength only comes by walking in the Spirit,as it is written, "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit."

 

[Gukkor]

I care not about your sexual orientation. I tend to go back and forth about homosexuality (whether it's a sin or not, that is, I myself am firmly heterosexual), but even if it is, I see it as far more important that one has genuine love and respect for one's partner, that one doesn't cheapen sex or become promiscuous, and that one is loyal to one's partner. Learning that someone is homosexual has almost no effect on me, but learning that someone breaks one of these three virtues, especially the third one, is one of the few things that can truly anger me.

As for your parents, I personally think they were wrong to do such a thing, whether or not they believe homosexuality is sinful. I would never disown my child, no matter how grievous a sin they committed.

And as for David and Jonathan, well, I've never examined those two's history together very closely, but when I really think about it, something does seem a bit...less than straight about their relationship. David was bisexual at most, but Jonathan could certainly have been gay. Besides, even if they had romantic love for each other, that itself doesn't necessarily mean they had sexual attraction to or relations with each other. Romantic love is separated from other forms of love by more than just sex, after all.

In short, I think it's quite possible, but I don't really know. Either way, I suppose it's worth a shot showing your theory to your parents, right? At worst, they'll just not listen to/disagree with you and things will remain the same, so you've got little to lose, as I see it.

 

[Jakkaru]

The bible is very clear about homosexuality being a sin. There is no question. Trying to justify one's behavior by taking portions of scripture out of context does not make it any less a sin.

How can something be a sin when you are made that way. That is like saying being African is a sin. Also I tend to view it as the Old Testament was much more strict then the New Testament because let's face it, that book was meant for the Hebrews who were out of control, they need firm straight rules to live their lifes by and that is what the Old Testament was. However with Jesus, God changed the rules alot, the way I see it if you accept Jesus was your savior regardless of whom you like you go to heaven. The only sins I reconize are the ones laid down by Moses and no where does it say homosexuality is a sin there.

Perhaps you would be better served if you read in the New Testament where it says we are to hate the sin but love the sinner.

Will point that out to my folks.

Have you considered that as a athiest, according to your parents and my belief you will end up in hell. Have you considered that your parents are very concerned and frightened for you?

Oh yes I have considered this but my folks are quite selfish people. They are not so much concerned I believe that I am an athiest and gay more so then how it will effect them and what their friends will say.

If they have disowned you, that is unfortunate and is not based on bible teaching. Jesus said we are to forgive those who sin against us 70 X 7 time. That means that we are continue to forgive them. We judges conduct and actions, not individuals.

Will point out to the folks.

I have had homosexuals that worked for me. I knew they were homosexual and they knew that I knew. In fact, we had several discussions about it. My position was then, as now, that it was my job to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ and His salvation. Not to judge them as individuals.

Ok

When I left that management position there was not a dry eye in the whole group, mine included.

Ok

In short, you are in mortal danger of spending eternity in the lake of fire. Not for being a homosexual, but for denying Christ.

I understand it may very well happen but if I was wrong and I am 100% sure I am not, I will stand before god as a man and accept my punishment.

There's such a diverse range of how different Christians would address this, but I've seen people deal with it this way, and it's definitely a painful time in the whole family. It's true that there are Christians who feel that what sits under their roof must have an approval stamp.

Boy is that the truth.

It sounds like they are trying to use the same tactics they did when you were eight, to steer you in a certain direction, and they are frustrated that you are old now and not as malleable. I think that if it wasn't this one thing, it would be something else that they would be frustrated over; it's a weird transition for parents to get used to their kids growing up.

-nods- But I DO understand it is alot for a parent to take in that their child is a homosexual. It is about that moment that the dreams you had for your child kind of die but I keep trying to tell them that I am the same person.. they just know more about me. Although I never told them myself which probaly made it worse..I was outed.

I know, it's about religion ... but I don't think it totally is. I think that's what makes a clear rule in their head that helps them solidify their decisions and stances. It will grow easier over time, I think.

Hopefully.

Can you imagine how they would react if you were promiscuous... :o

-blushes- Well I am not exactly an angel or anything IE kissing and the like which to my folks is as bad as sex but I am still a virgin and gladly so.

Yes. But then, I remember my mother telling me that I couldn't be in school plays because Dr. Spock said it would go to my head and I would get prideful. Not sure he really said that, lol... btw, I mean the child behavior expert, not the vulcan.

Odd. Sports never made me prideful.

It's nice that you are weighing each element of things -- sorting out the truths from the percieved truths. It is good to have understanding and wisdom like this.

Gracias.

Aw, darn.

Anyway, I can't imagine how painful it must be for your parents to treat you as unacceptable and in need of change. Just give some time for the situation to work itself out, and make wise decisions that will improve your future. I hope that the tension in the household settles out soon.

Me too.

While you're waiting, think of how you'd feel if you had kids, and one of them became a Christian.

I would be fine with it. I would debate them occasionally but always let them know I was happy with their decision.

I care not about your sexual orientation. I tend to go back and forth about homosexuality (whether it's a sin or not, that is, I myself am firmly heterosexual), but even if it is, I see it as far more important that one has genuine love and respect for one's partner, that one doesn't cheapen sex or become promiscuous, and that one is loyal to one's partner. Learning that someone is homosexual has almost no effect on me, but learning that someone breaks one of these three virtues, especially the third one, is one of the few things that can truly anger me.

As for your parents, I personally think they were wrong to do such a thing, whether or not they believe homosexuality is sinful. I would never disown my child, no matter how grievous a sin they committed.

And as for David and Jonathan, well, I've never examined those two's history together very closely, but when I really think about it, something does seem a bit...less than straight about their relationship. David was bisexual at most, but Jonathan could certainly have been gay. Besides, even if they had romantic love for each other, that itself doesn't necessarily mean they had sexual attraction to or relations with each other. Romantic love is separated from other forms of love by more than just sex, after all.

In short, I think it's quite possible, but I don't really know. Either way, I suppose it's worth a shot showing your theory to your parents, right? At worst, they'll just not listen to/disagree with you and things will remain the same, so you've got little to lose, as I see it.

Glad you agree.

 

[Digit]

My question is, well basically..is anyone seeing the same thing I am here?

Also I don't ask this question out of purely selfish reasons or to "prove anyone wrong", it's just my parents are Christians and becuase of who I am they have basically disowned me and I want to show them I am not a sinner.
​

Your parents would do well to remember that Jesus loved the sinner, just not the sin.

In addition, I'm sorry but I don't see the same thing that you do:

Leviticus 18:22
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

Romans 1:26-27
"Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

I would encourage you to pray for direction and wisdom on this matter.

All the best,
Digit

 

[heron]

How can something be a sin when you are made that way.

I think what PS is saying, is that there are tendencies we might justify and get involved in, that appear to be inevitable, but that we have more control over than we think.

Take for instance people who take over every conversation. They will laugh it off and say, "that's just who I am," but not choose to change because they'd rather keep it that way.

That's how your parents see it -- they believe that people have a choice of orientation.

Odd. Sports never made me prideful.

Yes, it was odd. My parents had a phase like your parents might be having a phase, where everything tightened up.

A book influenced them, because they respected the knowledge and foresight of the person behind the book.

that book was meant for the Hebrews who were out of control, they need firm straight rules to live their lifes by

Lol, aren't we all out of control? I don't think it ever ended.

But if you are thinking along those lines... notice how many of the rules were health codes. Certain acts and symptoms had to be dealt with in a desert community by quarantine -- sending people outside the group.

I don't think that STD's are any more rampant now than they were then. Imagine if a group of Hebrews were switching partners often -- gay or straight-- and the whole desert community died together. Moses gave laws that protected the people.

Through Moses' laws, a fifteen-year old girl is protected from becoming a mother before she can support a child.... the poor are provided for by farmers setting a portion aside ... it's a very community-oriented set of laws.

I have considered this but my folks are quite selfish people.

Sometimes fears play out that way.

Since you are mature and intelligent, start approaching this in a more strategic way. Find ways that you can improve your parents' quality of life, their understanding and tolerance. Instead of taking the natural reactive - defensive stance, find what will work toward everyone's benefit.

For instance, if you feel their church is compelling them to believe without thinking, talk about it when you're not in a conversation about the Big Issue. You might be seeing things about their church that they aren't able to.

Approach it in a caring way, showing that you are concerned for them. Restrain yourself from every temptation to use it against them... make it an honest discussion about faith without any assumed obligations for either side to change.

People are selfish, yes. Sometimes that's what keeps us alive. It's not right, but they're approaching the empty nest and they're probably trying to squeeze every bit of advice in while they still can.

 

[WarEagle]

As a gay teenager I hear it all the time from Christians how I am sinning and will burn in hell for who I am attracted to which I find funny, that God would make me this way and condemn me for it.

First of all, God didn't make you gay.

Second, you're not going to Hell because of who you're attracted to, but because you've broken God's laws.

Even if you were straight as an arrow, you'd still be a sinner. We all are because that's our nature.

My question is, well basically..is anyone seeing the same thing I am here?

No. It doesn't say anything at all about homosexuality and, for the life of me, unless you're just reading what you want to in order to try to justify your sin, I can't imagine how you can extrapolate homosexuality from those passages.

I am not a sinner.

Are you sure about that? Are you telling us that you've always kept God's laws without exception?

 

[heron]

Wareagle, what happened to your blessings? It says -12! And you don't even shop.

 

[WarEagle]

Wareagle, what happened to your blessings? It says -12! And you don't even shop.

I'm curious about that one myself. I gave somebody more blessings than I had and it put me into the negative numbers.

I don't mind because I wanted him to have them, but I'm really fascinated by that. I didn't know it would let you do that.

 

[heron]

Oh my. It didn't used to be possible; it must have been a glitch that no one noticed among all the commotion.

 

[Jakkaru]

First of all, God didn't make you gay.

You and my folks of are same mind then. I guess for a straight person it is hard to understand but unlike what many think, no I did not choose it and it rooted itself when I was little. Most boys liked sports, I had no interest in the matter I was into more intellectual things... and cooking. It is not as if I woke up one day and said "I'm gay!", it just has always been.

Second, you're not going to Hell because of who you're attracted to, but because you've broken God's laws.

-nods- This I know.

Even if you were straight as an arrow, you'd still be a sinner. We all are because that's our nature.

-nods- This I know too.

No. It doesn't say anything at all about homosexuality and, for the life of me, unless you're just reading what you want to in order to try to justify your sin, I can't imagine how you can extrapolate homosexuality from those passages.

It looks a reasonable assumption to me. I have seen the passages of the bible make less sense in Christian interpretations then by itself usually.

Are you sure about that? Are you telling us that you've always kept God's laws without exception?

Oh no not at all, when i say sinner I mean in the term of walking bastion of sin and evil as my folks make me out to be.

 

[WarEagle]

You and my folks of are same mind then. I guess for a straight person it is hard to understand but unlike what many think, no I did not choose it and it rooted itself when I was little.

I didn't say you chose it. I said God didn't make you gay.

None of us chose to have a sin nature, but that doesn't mean that God gave us our sin nature.

Oh no not at all, when i say sinner I mean in the term of walking bastion of sin and evil as my folks make me out to be.

What do you believe God would say about your sin?

 

[Jakkaru]

I didn't say you chose it. I said God didn't make you gay.

None of us chose to have a sin nature, but that doesn't mean that God gave us our sin nature.



What do you believe God would say about your sin?

What sin? Or all my sins? He would probaly if he was a truly benevolent God accept me for being gay. All of my sins? I don't know, when i was little I picture him as this character who was more of a "Oh you little scamp you. You had your fair share of troublemaking didn't you?", but let you in regardless but from the Christian point of view, yes i m a sinner like everyone else and will probaly go to hell. I MEAN though I am not some embodiment of evil that only wishes to sin and cause suffering as my parents make me out to be.

 

[WarEagle]

What sin? Or all my sins?

You've already admitted that you haven't kept God's laws. That makes you a sinner in God's eyes.

He would probaly if he was a truly benevolent God accept me for being gay.

God is benevolent. However, He is also holy, righteous and just.

God's holiness demands that He have a strict moral standard ("the law"). His justice demands that He punish violations ("sin") of that moral standard.

The Bible tells us that God's benevolence comes only after we repent and put our faith in Christ and His atonement on the cross.

I don't know, when i was little I picture him as this character who was more of a "Oh you little scamp you. You had your fair share of troublemaking didn't you?", but let you in regardless but from the Christian point of view

And that's what's known as idolatry because what you've done, in essence, is to create a god in your own image.

The Bible is very clear that God is angry about our sin and that we all face His wrath on judgement day.

While it might make you feel better to believe that God will wink and nod at sin and say "boys will be boys", but the Bible is very clear that God will judge those who are found to be in sin and rebellion.

yes i m a sinner like everyone else and will probaly go to hell.

Does that concern you at all?

I MEAN though I am not some embodiment of evil that only wishes to sin and cause suffering as my parents make me out to be.

But you are a sinner in danger of God's wrath and that's something you need to take very seriously.