John Hagee

[MrJim]

My pastor is a little on the chubby side, but he's still one of the best teachers I've ever heard. It doesn't seem to slow him down at all.

I never said a thick pastor was a glutton though it was interpreted that way. However of the outside of a person can be a good indicator of the inside~and one of the spiritual disciplines is mastery of self. Remember the whole "body is a temple of God" thing? If I'm a big guy and work to deal with it what am I going to learn from a 20 or 40 year pastor about it if he's twice my size? And it doesn't have to eating too much~just as likely too little activity. And if a thick preacher can't deal with that how's he gonna really teach about other issues in self control/self discipline? This is a key discipline~though admittedly not really a big issue in evangelical churches though now that I think about it...really the big issues in evangelical churches have little to do with discipline..Jesus loves me and has a wonderful plan for my life kinda crap-Be the Best You...

 

[Nadiine]

I never said a thick pastor was a glutton though it was interpreted that way. However of the outside of a person can be a good indicator of the inside~and one of the spiritual disciplines is mastery of self. Remember the whole "body is a temple of God" thing? If I'm a big guy and work to deal with it what am I going to learn from a 20 or 40 year pastor about it if he's twice my size? And it doesn't have to eating too much~just as likely too little activity. And if a thick preacher can't deal with that how's he gonna really teach about other issues in self control/self discipline? This is a key discipline~though admittedly not really a big issue in evangelical churches though now that I think about it...really the big issues in evangelical churches have little to do with discipline..Jesus loves me and has a wonderful plan for my life kinda crap-Be the Best You...

Hi Jim
Not here to dog on you but I think we can make all kinds of judgments based on appearance alone.

According to others, I guess I'd could be considered vain and somewhat immoral or haughty since I put alot of time into my exterior and dress nicely w/ gold jewlery, lotsa rings,... (and what some might consider possibly too revealing)...

People who dress dumpy and don't care about their appearance might tell me they don't care about God's temple... or might be trying to look like they're holy for NOT caring about what they look like outwardly...

Someone too skinny can be viewed as having eating disorders or whatever other body dismorphic probs....

I mean, the lists go on with appearance - substance has to come into play for us to properly make judgments. (sometimes we just shouldn't make them at all).
Eventually everyone's disqualified from being a good Christian if you work hard enough at it.

But I do see what you're saying and it does have some merit in a small way, we shouldn't completely rule out judging appearance - but have to be careful with it.

John 7:24
"Do not judge according to appearance,
but judge with righteous judgment."

 

[MrJim]

According to others, I guess I'd could be considered vain and somewhat immoral or haughty since I put alot of time into my exterior and dress nicely w/ gold jewlery, lotsa rings,... (and what some might consider possibly too revealing)...

Would you look at her...Why do I have to deal with looking at someone dressed that way in a church? Look you're her "sister in the Lord", have a talk with her nicely about using another button on her blouse and wearing longer and less tight skirts...and about that jewelry

. Why would she dress in such a distracting manner except to draw attention to yourself?

There, I shared a bit what it's like to have to live with me~pray for my wife

Jn 7:21 –Jn 7:24 NKJV
Jesus answered and said to them, “I did one work, and you all marvel.
Moses therefore gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath? Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
The appearances are in reference to miracles..

And there are plenty of other NT passages about some of these things~dress, jewelry, etc--but I'm bettin' they wouldn't be to popular.

As Des says, I'm wearing my mennonite hat again

 

[Nadiine]

Would you look at her...Why do I have to deal with looking at someone dressed that way in a church? Look you're her "sister in the Lord", have a talk with her nicely about using another button on her blouse and wearing longer and less tight skirts...and about that jewelry

. Why would she dress in such a distracting manner except to draw attention to yourself?

There, I shared a bit what it's like to have to live with me~pray for my wife

OH MY GAWWWWWSH lol

*starts petitioning for wifey*

Jn 7:21 –Jn 7:24 NKJV
Jesus answered and said to them, “I did one work, and you all marvel.
Moses therefore gave you circumcision (not that it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and you circumcise a man on the Sabbath. If a man receives circumcision on the Sabbath, so that the law of Moses should not be broken, are you angry with Me because I made a man completely well on the Sabbath? Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment.”
The appearances are in reference to miracles..

And there are plenty of other NT passages about some of these things~dress, jewelry, etc--but I'm bettin' they wouldn't be to popular.

As Des says, I'm wearing my mennonite hat again

I know the context, but appearance means just that. What something appears to be outwardly.

I'm using in a broader context - just DEAL WID IT!
(don't make me hafta come over there) LOL



.

 

[JustAsIam77]

Well I asked for it and sure got it. I never expected so many posts over a basic question re: John Hagee.

Thank you Simon Templar for your detailed post. I didn't know about these issues. I've not heard Hagee preach any false doctrine so far. If he wasn't bible based and teaching the genuine gospel I wouldn't listen to his sermons. Until I hear false doctrine coming out of his mouth myself I'll continue to enjoy him speak.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

I never said a thick pastor was a glutton though it was interpreted that way. However of the outside of a person can be a good indicator of the inside~and one of the spiritual disciplines is mastery of self. Remember the whole "body is a temple of God" thing? If I'm a big guy and work to deal with it what am I going to learn from a 20 or 40 year pastor about it if he's twice my size? And it doesn't have to eating too much~just as likely too little activity. And if a thick preacher can't deal with that how's he gonna really teach about other issues in self control/self discipline? This is a key discipline~though admittedly not really a big issue in evangelical churches though now that I think about it...really the big issues in evangelical churches have little to do with discipline..Jesus loves me and has a wonderful plan for my life kinda crap-Be the Best You...

Yeah, my church is in the evangelical category, but my "thick" pastor isn't one of those feel good preachers. He challenges us every sermon. I don't mean he guilt trips us or does the fire and brimstone thing. He doesn't... and if he did much of either, I'd be gone. I hate that stuff. But he does teach us the Bible (all of it - he likes to follow the Calvary Chapel practice of teaching it all the way through) and to be more mature Christians.

 

[MrJim]

(don't make me hafta come over there) LOL

 

[Simon_Templar]

With Christians there is always a dual tension between forgiveness and hypocrisy. On the one hand we are required to forgive.. but on the other it often seems like certain of our leaders (as well as many of us) are very hypocritical because they preach about things that they themselves have done as Christians etc.

I know many people may not agree with me, but I do believe that elders are held to a higher standard and while failing to meet that standard doesn't make someone not a Christian, it does, in my opinion, mean they probably shouldn't be an elder.

Hagee, while in the ministry, was an adulterer and ended up getting divorced from his first wife and marrying the women with whom he committed adultery. I have a very hard time then with many of his sermons which are often condemning of not only immorality but of people who he feels condone immorality. I have a doubly hard time when he and his wife write books about marriage to teach how marriages should be.

Hagee's sin there was not against me, and I also have nothing to hold against him because of his sin.. but where do we come back to Paul's teaching "you hypocrites who do the very things that you condemn others for".

It is one thing to teach about holiness from a stand point of acknoledging that we are all sinful and we all achieve holiness only through the grace and the ongoing transformation of God through the Holy Spirit and Christ. It is quite another to preach about holiness from the stand-point of condemning people, and society for not being holy enough, when you yourself have, not only as a Christian, but as a minister no less and elder of the Christian community, committed the very immoralities and the very sins you rail against.

I do a fair amount of talking about holiness on these boards.. at least in my own perception. But I'm also among the first to admit that I have been and some times am chief among sinners. I hope that when I talk about holiness it is not in terms of condemning those who aren't holy enough, but rather encouraging others, along with myself, to strive for greater holiness.

Even when I warn against the dangers of not seeking holiness.. I hope (and you will judge, along with God) that I do so with the realization and the attitude that "but for the grace of God there go I" and that with the grace of God, those who go there, can also be better than I.

 

[JustAsIam77]

With Christians there is always a dual tension between forgiveness and hypocrisy. On the one hand we are required to forgive.. but on the other it often seems like certain of our leaders (as well as many of us) are very hypocritical because they preach about things that they themselves have done as Christians etc.

I know many people may not agree with me, but I do believe that elders are held to a higher standard and while failing to meet that standard doesn't make someone not a Christian, it does, in my opinion, mean they probably shouldn't be an elder.

Hagee, while in the ministry, was an adulterer and ended up getting divorced from his first wife and marrying the women with whom he committed adultery. I have a very hard time then with many of his sermons which are often condemning of not only immorality but of people who he feels condone immorality. I have a doubly hard time when he and his wife write books about marriage to teach how marriages should be.

Hagee's sin there was not against me, and I also have nothing to hold against him because of his sin.. but where do we come back to Paul's teaching "you hypocrites who do the very things that you condemn others for".

It is one thing to teach about holiness from a stand point of acknoledging that we are all sinful and we all achieve holiness only through the grace and the ongoing transformation of God through the Holy Spirit and Christ. It is quite another to preach about holiness from the stand-point of condemning people, and society for not being holy enough, when you yourself have, not only as a Christian, but as a minister no less and elder of the Christian community, committed the very immoralities and the very sins you rail against.

I do a fair amount of talking about holiness on these boards.. at least in my own perception. But I'm also among the first to admit that I have been and some times am chief among sinners. I hope that when I talk about holiness it is not in terms of condemning those who aren't holy enough, but rather encouraging others, along with myself, to strive for greater holiness.

Even when I warn against the dangers of not seeking holiness.. I hope (and you will judge, along with God) that I do so with the realization and the attitude that "but for the grace of God there go I" and that with the grace of God, those who go there, can also be better than I.

Fair enough. Your point is not lost on me. However, I don't quite agree about the being held to a higher standard and being a hypocrite scenario with elders and ordained ministers. What I mean is if they have been thru some fires/had sin in their lives, (Hagee adultery), that shouldn't preclude them from pointing out the fact to others not to make the mistake they did.

All preachers have had sin in their lives. But they can still effectively deliver the message of the gospel to fellow sinners. Heck, we're all in the same boat. Sinners rotten to the core. How could any of us have the audacity to boast we're better than anyone else?

Perhaps I misunderstood you.

 

[The Sacred Cowtipper]

In my view the reason for the uproar is that John Hagee isn't politically correct, and him endorsing any political figure would be a negative to that politician.

If it was someone like Rick Warren or Joel Osteen or any other religious speaker who was more PC, that wouldn't be a problem or as much of a problem.

Hagee has made some serious attacks on some religions & groups and to a politician, that would be a vote loser!

So if Osteen endorsed him, things would probly be just peachy with it.

I'm looking for proof of Hagee is a freemason or not. I know Pat Robertson did the freemason "Lion's Paw" symbol on the cover of Time Magazine in the 1980's so he is. You don't just do things like that. Southern pastors are more likely to be freemasons and smoke so it wouldn't surprise me if Falwell and Hagee also were freemasons. Falwell received 3 million dollars from a major cult leader many years ago.

 

[The Sacred Cowtipper]

Correct.

Politicians are not interested in The Truth.

They are only interested in having the appearance of being interested in The "Good" of the people; that is, the people they are talking to today.


John Hagee had given a sermon several years ago, which was Biblical, in which he was explaining something about Israel. In Ezekiel 5, God describes judgements that will come against Israel because of their sin, and that only a remnant would be spared.


The Holocaust was caused by the Devil.

However, it was ALLOWED By God because of Israel's sin.

If you notice in the parable in Ezekiel 5, (verse 1-4 is the first telling of the judgement, and then verse 5-17 retells the same judgement.) After the first judgement that destroys all but a remnant represented by the hairs placed in the prophet's belt. God then tells him to take the hairs out of his belt and pass them through the judgements again(v.4). Verse 1-3 and also 14-17 would then represent the destruction of Israel as a nation in 70A.D. Verse 4 then represents the REMNANT that survived that destruction then being persecuted again while they are in exile "scattered among the nations." This is the Holocaust.


This is what John Hagee was talking about when he said, "Hitler was a fisher."

Somebody in the media who hates Christians found a copy of that sermon and used "sound bytes" to try to make John Hagee look like a lunatic.

And then John McCain said, "That's insane." and rejected his endorsement.

Well, The Bible doesn't lie. Israel sinned and God judged them by allowing the Devil to have full reign over them for many centuries. They rejected God and chose to worship the devil through idols and false religion and moreover killed Jesus. Therefore the Lord rejected them and gave them over to the devil they worshipped.


You will say, "Surely not every person killed in the Holocaust 'deserved' to die."

But Biblically, yes, they did, and so do you and I.

"For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God" and "The wages of sin is death."


It is only by the Grace of God that anyone is alive at all. Even the unbelieving sinner lives only by Grace, though he does not believe that. But "To whom much has been given much is required." Israel was given both the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, and ultimately rejected both. Therefore their judgement was more harsh than that of the heathen.

There have been many "Holocausts" against Israel throughout Biblical history right up to today. Hitler just "seems" like the worst because it is one of the most recent and because a lot of it was caught on film.

But if you study the Bible you see that the Syrians and the Babylonians and the Egyptians going back to the time of Moses committed such atrocities as bad or worse against Israel, and God allowed it because of their sin.


This is not "Politically correct," but it is Biblically correct.

The Lord rebuke politicians and the media, who call good 'evil' and evil 'good'.

John Hagee did say Jesus never claimed to be the Messiah to the Jews. He is a liar since at least the time he threatened to sue Hank Hannagraff for exposing him for the doctrine of Dual Covenants whcih can be traced back to a 1988 Houston Chronicle interview they had with Hagee. Hank was telling the Christian church the truth. I guess all you need today is a fake Doctorate from Oral Roberts Univeristy like Benny Hinn adn Hagee have to give yourself more credibility. He's teaching Judaism by the way tot he church too. The two don't mix like oil and water don't mix. What Hagee totally ignores like most American Christians is that only 5% to 12% of modern Israeli's are even natural Jews. They are Khazars from southern russia going back to AD 800 under King Bulah. The church is so deceived by unlearned men as John Hagee. If you doubt me, it was two different Jewish DNA scientists that did the DNA studies. One was from John Hopkins University. A Dr.. John Elkan. I don't remember the lady's name who did a study about 10 or so years ago. She was Jewish also. Now it is a truth that the Jews(?) living in Israel today keep out TRUE natural Jews if they are black and from Ethiopia or Etrithea. They are the greatest racists on the planet if you listen to what their rabbis actually teach and what the Talmud actually teaches. WE Gentiles are called no better than beasts of the field and that God has created us so each Jew can have 2,800 slaves. You would be amazed if you do some of your own research even on their own web sites. Jesus is burning in hell in excrement forever and the son of a harlot named Mary who had sex with Pantera. Just giving you a few things they say about our Lord yet you Christians worshipa people that hate our Lord. Worship is only due to the Lord Himself.

Modern post-1830 false teachings of dispensationalism, pre-trib rapture and political zionism has caused many to leave Jesus adn caused the death of mega millions worldwide. Every time we get involved in the Middle East, many Christians including in Palestine are killed or have their land stolen from them from non-Jews claiming to be Jews. If all the Palestinians were mUslim, and they are NOT, it would still be wrong for christians to promote the taking away of their land. Jesus already prophecied to the Jews that the kingdom was taken away fromt hem and given to a pagan heathen nation in Matthew 21:43. Look up that word "nation" in the greek. He gave them 490+an extra 40 years to the AD 70 Great REvolt that destroyed Jerusalem. I never hear pre-tribbers quote passages that go against their bad end time theology. Evne their scholars admit there isn't one clear verse in all of scripture that teaches that stuff. People like John Walvoord, Tim Lahaye, etc.

Do some research my friend. Do not be deceived as Jesus warned in Matthew 24:4,5 that in the last days many would come IN HIS NAME (like they are Christians speaking for Him) and deceive many. They WILL be deceived. This is what Jesus taught. Got to know your Bible more than ever. Christians are already convertin to Judaism and many pastors will lead their people under the Noahide Laws to avoid beheading by Jewish law.

 

[The Sacred Cowtipper]

Read the Bible. The church was founded by jews.

Look what Paul said about this, which I already paraphrased earlier.

"God is able to graft them in again."



Romans 11:17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[The Sacred Cowtipper]

God is ABLE to graft Jews back in.
God has been grafting Jews back in for centuries.

Paul and Isaiah taught that only a remnant of Jews will be saved in the end with REvelation chapter 11 seems to confirm it by stating the Jews kill the two witnesses at the end of the 6th trumpet just before Jesus returns.

The kingdom was given to another nation.

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The word nation here in STrong's is "Pagan heathen Gentile". never hear that one taught by USA pastors do we?

Finally Jews living in Israel today- the vast majority are not natural Jews and this has been proven by two DNA studies by two different Jewish DNA scientists over the last 20 years. Only 5% to 12% are natural. There are more natural Jews living in Palestine that we help kill and steal their land from along with Christian and Muslim Palestinians.

In Matthew 23 Jesus pronounces the judgment on jerusalem that is also in Daniel 9:26,27. Jesus told Peter to forigve your brother 70 x 7 = 490. God gave the Jews 490 years to repent up to His death adn then gave them an extra 40 years. They committed abominations (plural) as stated in Daniel 9 by starting animal sacrifice again even after the veil of the temple was rent in two. Notice there are two different things going on - the abomination (singular) of desolation (Titus' tropps surrounding Jerusalem) and abominations (plural) that the Jews were doing daily against Jesus through animal sacrifice. AD 70 was exactly 40 years after they killed Christ, not as John Hagee teaches that the Romans did it. 40 int he Bible is always JUDGMENT or TRIALS and TESTINGS so God gave them that extra 40 years to come to Him. Those that did receive Jesus escaped according to Josephus and not one was killed while the vast majority that teamed up with the zealots (over 1 million; 60% or more of the entire world's Jewish population at the time) were slaughteres. Some were eating their children to survive. Way worse than the holocaust. REd Cross originalyl stated that 270,000 Jews were killed in WW2. The Jews originally said 900,000, then the numbver magically went up to 2 million, then 3 million, and then 6 million (this number was impossible) but we got to make Jesus out to be a liar when He said this generation will endure something no generation before or after will go through. Read some history Christians and check everything that comes fromt he pulpits of America.