Jesus' meaning of "world" in Jn 6:51 and 7:7

[Hammster]

Where does my view say anything even close to that? He said that He would lay down His life for the sheep, and will save all who enter the sheep gate through Him.

Your view of my view is simply in error. Lots of it.

btw, what Scripture says that "a good shepherd will not lose sheep"? Those who enter by the gate will NOT be lost, for sure. OSAS.

Those who don't enter aren't His sheep.

So nobody is a goat. Good to know. But bad scripturally.

 

[heymikey80]

A good shepherd will not lose sheep. Your view says Jesus loses sheep.

I dont think they really grapple with the concept of universal offer making Christ the universal shepherd. I think they think of the sheep as whoever accepts the offer, not "I give my life for the sheep" as being the universal atonement.

Even arminian atonement is limited, to whoever believes, just in a less particular way than Calvinism.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So nobody is a goat. Good to know. But bad scripturally.

Context is key, of course. As you well know. So your comment is irrelevant.

 

[Hammster]

Context is key, of course. As you well know. So your comment is irrelevant.

Not irrelevant. Jesus speaks of sheep and goats. I doubt He would be confusing His audience by having some sheep be goats.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I dont think they really grapple with the concept of universal offer making Christ the universal shepherd. I think they think of the sheep as whoever accepts the offer, not "I give my life for the sheep" as being the universal atonement.

I'm always glad to help out others who are having trouble understanding.

There is clearly an offer here:

John 10:7
So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
John 10:8
“All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them.
John 10:9
“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

Even arminian atonement is limited, to whoever believes, just in a less particular way than Calvinism.

Which is why I'm neither Cal nor Arm. The atonement, or propitiation is unlimited, as 1 Jn 2:2 very clearly states.

 

[Inkfingers]

So, what support is there for the meaning of 'world' in 6:51 to be less than all of humanity?

The cross is enough to cover the sins of everyone.....who comes to Jesus (which theoretically could be every single person in the world, if God chose for that to happen).

But not everyone does come - John 10:26

And those who do, are predestined to - Eph 1:5, John 6:44

When the Bible says "the world" it does not necessarily mean "every single person" - as clearly when Caesar called a census "of the whole world" he didn't count the Inuits or the Mongolians.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The cross is enough to cover the sins of everyone.....who comes to Jesus (which theoretically could be every single person in the world, if God chose for that to happen).

But not everyone does come - John 10:26

Correct, but this fact does not lead to any view of the scope of the atonement.

And those who do, are predestined to - Eph 1:5, John 6:44

Not really. Eph 1:4 clearly indicates that those who God chose or elected is "us", meaning believers. iow, He elected believers, and it's stated clearly for what purpose: to be holy and blameless.

v.5 tells us what believers were predestined to: to adoption as sons.

Neither verse supports the idea that God chose who would believe.

When the Bible says "the world" it does not necessarily mean "every single person" - as clearly when Caesar called a census "of the whole world" he didn't count the Inuits or the Mongolians.

Right. Not "necessarily", and the context will easily sort out what is meant by the word, since words have meanings within their own context. Also, Rom 1:8 cannot mean every person in humanity, obviously.

But there is no compelling reason why "world" in either Jn 3:16 or Jn 6:51 and 7:7 cannot mean every person in humanity. None at all.

 

[Inkfingers]

Neither verse supports the idea that God chose who would believe.

You may wish to reconsider that rather blinkered stance....

“he chose us in him before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4)


“he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will” (Eph 1:5)


“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already” (John 3:18)


“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day” (john 6:44)

 

[FreeGrace2]

You may wish to reconsider that rather blinkered stance....

“he chose us in him before the foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4)

Apparently I wasn't the one blinking here. I addressed that verse specifically.

Who is the "us" there? It's a personal pronoun, so it would include Paul, a believer, and his audience, also believers. If that isn't enough to convince one that the verse clearly says that God chose believers to be holy and blameless, please consider Eph 1:19, where Paul explicitly defines who the "us" is:

and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might

“he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will” (Eph 1:5)

Please direct your attention to Eph 1:19 for the definition of "us".

God chose or elected believers. God predestined believers. It is very clear.

“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already” (John 3:18)

Yes, a great verse. But I'm not clear as to why you've cited it.

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day” (john 6:44)

OK. What does the very next verse say? God has instructed everyone, and those who have listened and learned from the Father will come to Me.

Great verses, but none of which support RT's view of election.

 

[Inkfingers]

Great verses, but none of which support RT's view of election.

You stated about the verses that I quoted that "Neither verse supports the idea that God chose who would believe", when Eph 1:5 clearly states that God predestined us to adoption. Are you seriously suggesting that this verse is not saying that belief is predestined by God?

 

[FreeGrace2]

You stated about the verses that I quoted that "Neither verse supports the idea that God chose who would believe", when Eph 1:5 clearly states that God predestined us to adoption. Are you seriously suggesting that this verse is not saying that belief is predestined by God?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Belief isn't in the picture, other than those elected are believers.

Didn't you read the whole post? I was very clear. The "us" in v.4 and v.5 is defined in 1:19 to be believers. That's who God elects and predestines.

The idea that God chooses or elects to or for belief isn't taught in Scripture. And these verses do not eithe say or indicate that idea.

Such a view comes from eisegesis, not exegesis.

 

[Inkfingers]

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Belief isn't in the picture, other than those elected are believers.

Didn't you read the whole post? I was very clear. The "us" in v.4 and v.5 is defined in 1:19 to be believers. That's who God elects and predestines.

The idea that God chooses or elects to or for belief isn't taught in Scripture. And these verses do not eithe say or indicate that idea.

Such a view comes from eisegesis, not exegesis.

So when John 3:18 says that "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already”, you don't think that is connected with Eph 1:4-5 saying "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world. He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will" and John 6:44 saying "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him"?

Seriously?



ONLY believers are saved - John 3:18
ONLY those drawn are saved - John 6:44
ONLY those predestined are drawn - EPh 1:4-5

QED those who believe are predestined to.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So when John 3:18 says that "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already”, you don't think that is connected with Eph 1:4-5 saying "he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

No, I don't. Why should I or anyone else think that? Please explain why?

He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will

" and John 6:44 saying "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him"?

Seriously?

I directly addressed these verses. Please re-read my post.

Re-reading my post should remove any confusion.

ONLY believers are saved - John 3:18
ONLY those drawn are saved - John 6:44
ONLY those predestined are drawn - EPh 1:4-5

1. true
2. true
3. Eph 1:4,5 does NOT say anything about being drawn. Eisegesis will get one nowhere.

QED those who believe are predestined to.

Faulty logic. From eisegesis. I recommend exegesis. Eisegesis was demonstrated by your comment about Eph 1:4-5 indicating anything about being drawn.

 

[Inkfingers]

1. true
2. true
3. Eph 1:4,5 does NOT say anything about being drawn. Eisegesis will get one nowhere.

What?

Only those drawn are saved (ie: adopted to be sons of god) and those who are adopted are predestined to be.

Seriously, lose the jargon and just read the book.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What?

Only those drawn are saved (ie: adopted to be sons of god) and those who are adopted are predestined to be.

Being saved is Not equated with being adopted. In fact, Scripture is very clear that ONLY believers are adopted.

John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

Seriously, lose the jargon and just read the book.

Sure, let's be serious. Here's what Eph 1:5 actually SAYS:

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Again, note who He predestined: "us". Defined in 1:19 as BELIEVERS. Why won't you deal with that fact?

Next, note what believers are predestined to be: adopted as His sons. I'll repeat: believers are adopted as sons.

Finally, we read about the means of this adoption, which is "through Jesus Christ". This simply cements the FACT that God adopts ONLY believers to be His sons.

Because one becomes a believer ONLY "through Jesus Christ".

I've repeatedly exegeted these verses, compared to your eisegesis of the verses.

So, I don't need to lose any "jargon", since I've directly dealt with the text and what is SAYS. I suggest losing your eisegetical approach to the verses.

 

[Inkfingers]

Being saved is Not equated with being adopted.

And there is your underlying error.

 

[heymikey80]

being saved is not eqated with being adopted

And there is your underlying error.

Are you meaning this?

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, Jn 1:12

I would agree, the grammar establishes yet another line of the truth of what God is doing with people.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And there is your underlying error.

Nope. God only adopts those who have believed. Read the verses. They are clear enough.

Just as God only saves those who believe. And justifies those who believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Are you meaning this?

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, Jn 1:12

I would agree, the grammar establishes yet another line of the truth of what God is doing with people.

Simple question from this verse: to WHOM does God give the right to become children of God?

Answer: to all who believed in His name. Couldn't be more simple or clear.

Believers are adopted. Check the order. They aren't equated.

 

[heymikey80]

Simple question from this verse: to WHOM does God give the right to become children of God?

Answer: to all who believed in His name. Couldn't be more simple or clear.

Believers are adopted. Check the order. They aren't equated.

The same people believing are adopted. Jn 1:12
The people are predestined to being adopted Ep 1:5