Jesus did not walk the earth as a demi-God

ViaCrucis

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Hebrews 2:14-18

14 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same nature, that through death he might destroy him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage. 16 For surely it is not with angels that he is concerned but with the descendants of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make expiation for the sins of the people. 18 For because he himself has suffered and been tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.

Also,
Hebrews 2:5-18 in the Young's Literal Translation is a good read, it's closer to the original text.

Right. He united our humanity to His Divinity in His Person. He was therefore like us in all ways but without sin; He was fully human while fully God. He was therefore tempted, and suffered, and lived, as the one undivided God-Man. And He remains, even now and for all eternity, the one undivided God-Man. Jesus is what He has always been, and will always be what He is. He is true God and true man. God was crucified, and there is a human being seated on heaven's throne above all powers, dominions, and thrones, whose kingdom is forever.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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YahuahSaves

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Then prove is from scripture. I base my beliefs on what the Bible clearly reveals is the truth.
I did in post #36

No one said he wasn't God. But he could not die as a man if he did not lay down his eternal nature and submit to the will of the Father.

The "fullness" refers to the love of the Father, otherwise, humans would become God through Christ. Do you think we become God himself, as believers?

Ephesians 3:19

19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.
 
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YahuahSaves

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The humility of Christ is not a deprivation of His Deity, it is that He--fully Divine--was humble. It is the humility of God, the weakness of God.
I never said it was. I said countless times he submitted to the Father's will. If you believe he did the works from himself alone while he was human then you discount the works he said we would do by the power of the Holy Spirit. It's no wonder people don't think we can do what the scriptures say God can do through us.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I did in post #36

No one said he wasn't God. But he could not die as a man if he did not lay down his eternal nature and submit to the will of the Father.

Why? Why does Jesus need to "lay down His eternal nature" in order to A) submit to the Father and B) die as a man?

He is both God and man, together, undivided, as one Person: Jesus. That means He, Jesus, God-and-man together and undivided, was nailed to the cross. He, Jesus, God-and-man together and undivided, submitted Himself to the Father; without ever being less than the Father, without ever being subordinate to the Father, while remaining true God as the Son of the Father as He has always been. Because the Son loves His Father, and so always reflects the Father, "He is the express image of the Father's Hypostasis" (Hebrews 1:3), "If anyone has known Me he has known the Father also", "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one can come to the Father but by Me" etc.

The Son reveals and shows forth the Father through His own Person, as the Son; and so when He submits to the will of His Father He does not do so because He has laid aside His eternal nature, but because He is the Son of the Father who loves His Father and shares the same Divine will as His Father in all things. And while He also has a human will, His human will is in all things in perfect union with His Divine Will. So that the two wills of Christ are in perfect unity, even as the two natures of Christ are in perfect unity; for Jesus Christ is one Person: The Eternal Son and Word of the Father.

And it is this Jesus, the Eternal Son and Word of the Father--i.e. God--who by uniting our humanity to Himself shares and participates in our weakness, frailty, mortality, shame, etc; and thus He has emptied Himself for our sakes, to become a slave, and to suffer and die vicariously for us.

The "fullness" refers to the love of the Father, otherwise, humans would become God through Christ. Do you think we become God himself, as believers?

Ephesians 3:19

19 May you experience the love of Christ, though it is too great to understand fully. Then you will be made complete with all the fullness of life and power that comes from God.

The fullness of Deity means that He was fully and completely God. We aren't Jesus, so we aren't the fullness of Deity in bodily form because Jesus, as God, was fully God. And we, being mere human beings and nothing else, are just human beings. Jesus is the only human being who is also God, because He has always been God, He is God because He is the only-begotten Son of the Father from all Eternity.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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I never said it was. I said countless times he submitted to the Father's will. If you believe he did the works from himself alone while he was human then you discount the works he said we would do by the power of the Holy Spirit. It's no wonder people don't think we can do what the scriptures say God can do through us.

I didn't say He did them alone. I said He did them by His own power and authority, because He's God. The Son can never be separate from His Father or the Holy Spirit, because the Son is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit as true and very God. The Son is God because the Father is God, and what the Father is the Son is also; the Three Divine Persons are inseparable.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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YahuahSaves

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Why? Why does Jesus need to "lay down His eternal nature" in order to A) submit to the Father and B) die as a man?
So us mortals could become children of God. Jesus is our high priest, he is the way, the truth and the life.

John 14:11

11 Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do.

John 14:20

20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you

I said He did them by His own power and authority, because He's God
Romans 6:4

4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.

Romans 8:11

11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.


1 Corinthians 15:24-28

24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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So us mortals could become children of God. Jesus is our high priest, he is the way, the truth and the life.

John 14:11

11 Just believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me. Or at least believe because of the work you have seen me do.

John 14:20

20 When I am raised to life again, you will know that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you


Romans 6:4

4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.

Romans 8:11

11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.


1 Corinthians 15:24-28

24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.
None of your verses say Jesus was not God. You are teaching the kenosis heresy.

Phil 2:5-8
In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
NIV

These translation capture the meaning of the text in its CONTEXT.


New International Version
rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

New Living Translation
Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form,

New King James Version
but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

King James Bible
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Thayers Greek Lexicon


namely, τοῦ εἶναι ἴσα Θεῷ or τῆς μορφῆς τοῦ Θεοῦ, i. e. he laid aside equality with or the form of God (said of Christ), Philippians 2:7



Strongs Lexicon

From kenos; to make empty, i.e. (figuratively) to abase, neutralize, falsify -- make (of none effect, of no reputation, void), be in vain.



Louw Nida Greek Lexicon

87.70
κενόωb: to completely remove or eliminate elements of high status or rank by eliminating all privileges or prerogatives associated with such status or rank.



What Paul makes very clear in this passage is that in addition to being God, He became man. The Incarnation was not a subtraction of His deity but an addition of humanity to His nature. This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity, assuming the form of a servant in verse 7. The text says He was in the form of God or being in the very nature of God in 2:6. Just as He took upon Himself the "form of a servant" which is a servant by nature, so the "form of God" is God by nature. The word "being" from the phrase: being in the very form of God is a present active participle. This means "continued existence" as God. What Paul is actually saying here is Jesus has always been and still is in the "form of God". If you continue reading the passage Paul really drives this point home so that his readers have no doubt what he is trying to get across to the Philippians. Paul says that every knee will bow and will one day Confess Jesus is LORD. Paul takes the passage in Isaiah 45:23 which clearly refers to Yahweh a name used for God alone and says this of Jesus. The fulfillment of YHWH in Isaiah 45 is none other than Jesus who is God(Yahweh) in the flesh.



He self limited His divine prerogatives via the Incarnation as per Phil 2. In other words did not use them to His advantage but was in submission to the Father for 33 years to accomplish our salvation. All the FULLNESS of DEITY dwells in bodily form. Col 1:19;2:9. Jesus was and is fully God lacking nothing in His Deity.




Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Even through Christ existed in the form of God He did not regard equality with God something that He needed to reach for or grasp. Why because it was already His and never gave that up for a millisecond.

Paul is using syllogisms from the text in Philippians 2.

Just as the term “form of God” in verse six does not mean “less than God” because of the phrase “equality with God" in the prior passage.

It goes to reason in the same way with the 2 phrases in the “form of a servant” and in the “likeness of man” in verse seven do not mean that Jesus was any “less than human,” but instead means He was the same or “equal with all humans.”

That is how the passage reads and how it is to be understood in its " CONTEXT ".

In Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9 the Apostle Paul said, For in HIM (CHRIST) ALL of the “ fullness of deity dwells bodily. “Did Paul use the word fullness there to mean partially? NO as Jesus did not empty Himself of His Deity. Jesus Divinity is FULL, complete lacking in nothing. The ENTIRE Fullness of Deity dwells (is present) bodily in Jesus. In Colossians 1:19 it is describing His earthly ministry and Colossians 2:9 it is describing His Post Resurrection/Ascension Glory as God Incarnate.



Colossians 1:19-20

For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven



Colossians 2:9-10- For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

Colossians 3:1- Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Paul is talking in Colossians chapters 2-3 about the glorified resurrected Christ now seated at the right hand of God not the earthly Christ pre resurrection. This is a slam dunk that He is in a human glorified resurrection body and that He continues to have all the fullness of Deity dwelling bodily in the present.

This is how one exegetes the passage rather than using eisegesis- reading ones own thoughts and ideas into the text.

hope this helps !!!
 
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YahuahSaves

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This passage does not say Jesus gave up His deity but that He laid aside His rights as Deity,
I said this.
No one said he wasn't God. But he could not die as a man if he did not lay down his eternal nature and submit to the will of the Father.

If you read into scripture that he used his power as God while on earth, instead of from the Father and the Spirit then perhaps you need to look again.

Romans 6:4

4 For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.

Romans 8:11

11 The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.

And at the end, when this plan is accomplished, Christ again submits to the Father and its the Father who reigns supreme
1 Corinthians 15:24-28

24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power. 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.”[a] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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I said this.


If you read into scripture that he used his power as God while on earth, instead of from the Father and the Spirit then perhaps you need to look again.



And at the end, when this plan is accomplished, Christ again submits to the Father and its the Father who reigns supreme
Scripture never says He laid aside His Deity/ Eternal nature of God- by default that makes Him not God.
 
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YahuahSaves

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Scripture never says He laid aside His Deity/ Eternal nature of God- by default that makes Him not God.
Scripture clearly shows he fully submitted to the Father's will. And my previous post quoting 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 he clearly submits to the Father after he humbles his enemies under his feet. That's what I meant when I said "layed down" his eternal nature while on earth. Show me the clear scriptures where it says Jesus used his power as God apart from the Father & the Holy Spirit?
 
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Scripture clearly shows he fully submitted to the Father's will. And my previous post quoting 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 he clearly submits to the Father after he humbles his enemies under his feet. That's what I meant when I said "layed down" his eternal nature while on earth. Show me the clear scriptures where it says Jesus used his power as God apart from the Father & the Holy Spirit?
submission has nothing to do with nature.

is your wife no longer human , a woman because she submits ? are you no longer human, a man because you submit to your boss ?

hope this helps !!!
 
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YahuahSaves

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YahuahSaves

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submission has nothing to do with nature
This might help you understand what I'm actually saying.


"There were times when Jesus publicly manifested His divine knowledge and power on earth (John 2:25; 11:43 –44). On those occasions, Jesus’ demonstrations of His divinity were directed by the Father. On other occasions, He had no such directive from the Father, and He kept His glory veiled. On all occasions, Jesus obeyed the Father’s will: “I always do what pleases him,” He said (John 8:29)." From: If Jesus is God, why did He not know when He would return?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Scripture clearly shows he fully submitted to the Father's will. And my previous post quoting 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 he clearly submits to the Father after he humbles his enemies under his feet. That's what I meant when I said "layed down" his eternal nature while on earth. Show me the clear scriptures where it says Jesus used his power as God apart from the Father & the Holy Spirit?

You can't find a Scripture that shows that the Father did anything apart from His Son and Holy Spirit either. That's because the Father never does anything apart from His Son and Holy Spirit, even as the Son does nothing without His Father and Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit does nothing apart from the Father and the Son. For they are One in Will and Being.

Jesus submitting to the Father does not involve Him laying aside anything concerning His nature. He remained everything He has always been, while adding to Himself our human nature.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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This might help you understand what I'm actually saying.


"There were times when Jesus publicly manifested His divine knowledge and power on earth (John 2:25; 11:43 –44). On those occasions, Jesus’ demonstrations of His divinity were directed by the Father. On other occasions, He had no such directive from the Father, and He kept His glory veiled. On all occasions, Jesus obeyed the Father’s will: “I always do what pleases him,” He said (John 8:29)." From: If Jesus is God, why did He not know when He would return?

None of that involves Jesus "setting aside His eternal nature". He is God, He can't set aside His eternal nature because that would be ceasing to be Himself.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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YahuahSaves

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For they are One in Will and Being
Yes, but the Son is still subordinate to the Father. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father, although they are one (along with the Holy Spirit). The Father created everything through the Son.

John 5:26-27

26 The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son. 27 And he has given him authority to judge everyone because he is the Son of Man.[a]

] (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.


None of that involves Jesus "setting aside His eternal nature".
We're talking about ability here. While in human flesh the Son obeyed the Father's will.
 
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@Jesus is YHWH

Hebrews 2:11-15

11 So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have the same Father. That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters.[a] 12 For he said to God,

“I will proclaim your name to my brothers and sisters.
I will praise you among your assembled people.”

13 He also said,

“I will put my trust in him,”
that is, “I and the children God has given me.”[c]

14 Because God’s children are human beings—made of flesh and blood—the Son also became flesh and blood. For only as a human being could he die, and only by dying could he break the power of the devil, who had[d] the power of death. 15 Only in this way could he set free all who have lived their lives as slaves to the fear of dying.
 
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This might help you understand what I'm actually saying.


"There were times when Jesus publicly manifested His divine knowledge and power on earth (John 2:25; 11:43 –44). On those occasions, Jesus’ demonstrations of His divinity were directed by the Father. On other occasions, He had no such directive from the Father, and He kept His glory veiled. On all occasions, Jesus obeyed the Father’s will: “I always do what pleases him,” He said (John 8:29)." From: If Jesus is God, why did He not know when He would return?
I do not disagree with the above nevertheless it does not change the fact He remained fully God as per Colossians 1:19 and Colossians 2:9
 
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Yes, but the Son is still subordinate to the Father. The Father is not the Son and the Son is not the Father, although they are one (along with the Holy Spirit). The Father created everything through the Son.

John 5:26-27

26 The Father has life in himself, and he has granted that same life-giving power to his Son. 27 And he has given him authority to judge everyone because he is the Son of Man.[a]

To say that the Son is subordinate to the Father is Subordinatism, which is a theological error which the Christian Church has rejected since antiquity. Rather, the Son is co-equal with the Father.

"We confess also that the Son was begotten, but not made, from the Being of the Father without beginning before all ages, becaue neither the Father without the Son, nor the Son without the Father ever at any time existed. And yet the Father is not from the Son as the Son is from the Father, because the Father did not receive generation from the Son, but the Son from the Father. The Son, therefore, is God from the Father, the Father, however is God, but not from the Son; the Father indeed of the Son, not God from the Son. He, however, is Son of the Father and God from the Father. However, the Son is equal in all things to God the Father, because at no time did He either begin or cease to be begotten. We believe that He is of the same Being with the Father, and because of this we say He is homoousian to the Father, that is, of the same Being, for homo in Greek means same, and ousia means being, and the two together mean "same Being". For, neither from nothing, nor from a ny other being, but from the womb of the Father, that is, from His Being, we must believe that the Son was begotten or born. Therefore, the Father is eternal, and the Son is eternal. But if He always was Father, He always had a Son to whom He was Father; and by reason of this we confess that the Son was begotten of the Father without beginning. Neither do we call the same Son of God a part of a divided nature because of the fact that He is begotten of the Father; but we assert that the perfect Father begot the perfect Son without diminuation or division, whom we must believe God the Father begot neither by will nor by necessity; for neither does any necessity happen in God, nor does will precede Wisdom." - From the Confession of Faith from the 11th Council of Toledo, AD 675

"Furthermore, it is necessary ... that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the orthodox faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man. God, of the Being of the Father, begotten before all ages; and Man, of the being of His mother, born in the world. Completely God and completely human, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His Deity, and inferior to the Father as touching His humanity. Who although He is God and Man; yet He is not two, but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Deity into flesh; but by assumption of the humanity unto God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of Person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again on the third day from the dead, He ascended into heaven, He sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, from whence He will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies. And shall give account for their own works. And they that the righteous shall go to eternal life, and the wicked to everlasting fire. This is the universal [Christian] faith;" - From the Athanasian Creed

We're talking about ability here. While in human flesh the Son obeyed the Father's will.

That's not being disputed.

What is disputed is the idea that the Son in being humble and obedient to the Father's will, and in the weakness and lowliness of His human flesh, had somehow "set aside" anything pertaining to His eternal being and nature as God.

He never ceased to be or have all which He has always been and is: God.

In being simultaneously God and man He is both Almighty and lowly. He is both unable to suffer and yet suffers. He is unable to die, and yet dies. He both knows all things and doesn't know the time of His own return.

We can't, and shouldn't, try to rationalize these paradoxes by dismissing either side of the paradox.

How can God, who knows everything, not know something? Who can give answer to this? It is a great and incomprehensible mystery. Nevertheless, He is God and therefore knows all things; and He is man and therefore there were things He didn't know. We are compelled by our Christian faith to confess this paradox and mystery of faith.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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