Jesus Christ Did Pre-Exist, but He also Began. Only the Father Has No Beginning (moved)

[cgaviria]

First and foremost, the pre-existence of Jesus in the beginning does not imply that he has always existed, although it is true that he did pre-exist. The scriptures are very clear in this. How this is possible is miraculous. But just as God is able to resurrect a body and place the mind of someone that has been deceased in it, so is he able to place the the same mind that spoke the world into existence into a new earthly body. Before the Word began speaking things into existence, the earth and the water already existed, as it is said,

[1] In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. [2] But the earth was unseen and unready, and darkness was upon the abyss, and spirit of God bore upon the water. [3] And God said, Let there be light! And there was light.
(Genesis 1:1-3 [ABP])

Notice how "the earth was unseen and unready". Why was it unseen? Because there was no light to illuminate it yet. Why was it unready? Because nothing had been created yet to give it light and order to make it ready for its purpose. The earth was already there before the Word began speaking things into existence on it. And not just the earth, but water was already there. How is this possible if the Word hasn't started speaking yet? Its because it was the Father that established the foundation first, and then the Word began speaking things into existence that filled it. What did the Word bring forth exactly? It brought forth light, it brought forth the division of light and darkness, it brought forth a firmament, it brought forth the sources of light in the heaven, it brought forth dry land, it brought forth plants and trees and vegetation, it brought forth all living things, and many other things. It brought into existence things that filled the earth and the heaven that the Father had already established. The Word brought forth these things into existence by speech, such as "let there be light", that is why he is called the Word, because he is also the speech of God. "Word" in the Greek means speech, talking. And as a consequence of the speech uttered by Jesus Christ in the beginning did all things come into existence. Going further Colossians we even read,

[15] who is the image of the unseen God, first-born of all creation; [16] for in him were created the whole, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- the visible and the unseen; whether thrones, whether lordships, whether sovereignties, whether authorities; the whole through him and in him have been created.
(Colossians 1:15-16 [ABP])

Here we read that in the Word was created "the whole" (Greek word "pas"), which means "all", all what? The things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth as the verse goes on to describe what all things specifically. Colossians says, "the visible and the unseen; whether thrones, whether lordships, whether sovereignties, whether authorities". The Word created all these things that filled the heaven and the earth. And its because of this, that the Word is also mentioned in this scripture as the "first-born of all creation", because Jesus, the Word, was created first before all living beings, then afterwards all living beings were created through Jesus, which includes angels, man, and animals.... all living things. Why is this of great significance? Because it demonstrates two actions, the Father creating a foundation, and then the Word creating things upon that foundation. As it is even written,

God in wisdom founded the earth; and he prepared the heavens in intelligence. (Proverbs 3:19 [ABP])

It was the Father who founded the earth, and prepared the heaven. So in the father founding the earth, and preparing the heaven, he then had Jesus create things on that which the Father founded and prepared. Also we read,

the one laying the foundation for the earth in its stability (it shall not lean into the eon of the eon); (Psalms 104:5 [ABP])

The Father laid the foundation of the earth. Also we read,

Where were you in my laying the foundation for the earth? And report to me! if you should have knowledge of understanding. (Job 38:4 [ABP])

The Father did create certain things first, before the speech began uttering things to fill it and bring order to it. So, what were specific things that the Father himself created to lay his foundation on the earth? He created water that existed as a part of his foundation on the earth. He created his spirit, or rather air (air and spirit are synonymous throughout scripture) that bore upon the water, and he created words and language (or rather, he created the Word, that is Jesus, to speak things into existence to fill the heaven and earth). These things existed in the very beginning already before the speech began uttering because it was the Father that created them directly by laying his foundation of the earth and preparing the heaven. All these things that the Father initially created were created in the commencement of day one, which is the beginning of creation, and from there the start of days began when things were brought forth into existence into the void.

Here we have an affirmation that the Word created things,

[1] In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. [2] This one was in the beginning with God. [3] All through him existed, and apart from him existed not even one thing which exists.
(John 1:1-3 [ABP])

Notice how it says, "all through him existed". This isn't talking about the foundation of the earth and the prepared heaven, otherwise it would contradict other scripture, it is talking about all living beings. All living beings through him existed, and not one living being which exists, exists apart from him. This translation adds the word "thing", or "one thing", as do most other translations, but the word "thing" is not part of the original text, the original text only has the word "one", so adding the word "thing" adds confusion as to what this scripture is referring to. You can view the interlinear of the verse here to see for yourself (even this interlinear adds the word "things" to "all things", but it should instead be rendered as just "all"). Lets look at the word "all", or "panta" in the Greek in other passages,

For amen I say to you, until whenever shall pass away the heaven and the earth, one iota or one dot in no way should pass from the law, until whenever all comes to pass. (Matthew 5:18 [ABP])

Here it translated correctly as just "all", because that is what "panta" means, and it is sufficient for this scripture. Lets then look at the word "one", which is Greek word "hen",

And if your right eye causes you to stumble, take it out, and throw it from you! for it is advantageous to you that one of your members should be destroyed, and your entire body should not be thrown into Gehenna. (Matthew 5:29 [ABP])

Again, just the word "one" is sufficient. So appending "all things" and "one thing" are merely just renderings that the translators thought were correct in accordance with their own doctrine but is not what is conveyed in the original text. So the translation should read, "All through him existed, and apart from him existed not even one which exists". As you even read further,

He was in the world, and the world by him existed, and the world knew him not. (John 1:10 [ABP])

Notice that this scripture is indicating that Jesus created the "world", and that the "world didn't know him". It's not referring to the earth not knowing him, its referring to the people he created in the world not knowing him, since all living things were created through him. The "world" is actually even a larger scope than just living things, it is everything that is created on the earth, living things, kingdoms, animals, etc. The world is not the earth, but rather the world is on the earth. We see this clear usage of the word "world" in other instances,

[15] Do not love the world, nor the things in the world! If anyone should love the world, the love of the father is not in him; [16] for every thing in the world– the desire of the flesh, and the desire of the eyes, and the ostentatiousness of existence, is not of the father, but is of the world.
(I John 2:15-16 [ABP])

Jesus is not saying don't love the earth, he's saying don't love the "world", meaning the current world that exists on the earth. The Greek word for "world" is kosmos. It connotes the "world" upon the earth as it is clear in various other usages. Here is another instance,

If the world detests you, know that it detested me first before you! (John 15:18 [ABP])

Here also, its not talking about the earth. The earth doesn't detest Jesus Christ, but rather, it is the world, or rather, the people of the world. So again, the word "world" conveys the things that are currently upon the earth. It also conveys a way of life in the current world by the people of the current world. The current world upon the earth is evil.

Going further, Jesus also affirmed himself to be I AM. In saying this, he wasn't affirming that he has always existed as the Father does, but rather, that he is existed before Abraham was and even before the world was brought forth into existence,

And now you glorify me, O father, with the glory of yourself! which I had with you before the world being in existence. (John 17:5 [ABP])

Even in Jesus affirming that he existed beforehand, he also affirms that he is also lesser than the Father, which is in itself also indicative that Jesus began whereas the Father never did,

You heard that I said to you, I go away, and I come to you. If you loved me, you would have rejoiced that I said, I go to the father, for my father is greater than me. (John 14:28 [ABP])

Taking things further, this scripture is also of importance,

For thus God loved the world, so that he gave his only born son, that every one trusting in him, should not perish, but should have eternal life. (John 3:16 [ABP])

Notice the use of only born son. Why is he the only born son? Because he is the only being that has ever been created directly by the Father, and then, all other living things came forth from the Son. Even so, the mere usage of the word son to describe Jesus also indicates that he began, for does a son precede a father or even come at the same time as a father? No, a father comes first, then a son. So therefore, if the Father never began, it stands to reason that Jesus began as that would be the next order of things, Jesus was birthed into existence. Hence why we also have this scripture,

declaring the order of the LORD. The LORD said to me, you are my son, I today engendered you. (Psalms 2:7 [ABP])

Going further, some might say, well if Jesus Christ was created, then how can he be God? And also, how can a creature also be a creator? There is one thing that is apparent in the way God creates certain things, he creates things that image himself, in one example we have,

Then God said, "Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground." (Genesis 1:26)

What is an image? It is something that reflects something else. It is something lesser that reflects something greater. In this case, man was made in the image of God. Man, being lesser, reflects God, who is greater. How does man reflect God? In that man, just as God, participates in the creation nature of God, in the procreation of man and woman. So man himself, in being made as an image of God, act like God in birthing beings into existence. And what else does God give man? He gives him dominion over what he created,

And God blessed them, saying, Grow and multiply, and fill the earth, and dominate it! And control the fishes of the sea, and the winged creatures of the heaven, and all the cattle, and all of the earth, and all of the reptiles of the ones crawling upon the earth! (Genesis 1:28 [ABP])

So we see two things indicated here. God creates an image of himself, and God gives image of himself dominion. So what's to say, that if God did this to lesser living beings being man and woman, that he did not himself do the same with his very own son as the highest image of himself over everything he created? And yes, even the scriptures call Jesus the image of God,

who is the image of the unseen God, first-born of all creation; (Colossians 1:15 [ABP])

But he is not just any image, he is the very representation of what all the Father is and is made highest of all creation,

who being the radiance of the glory, and impression of his essence, and bearing the whole by the word of his power, by himself making a cleansing of our sins, he sat at the right of the greatness in heights; (Hebrews 1:3 [ABP])

And we even see indicated that Jesus was given authority over all things since he is the highest of all creation,

And having come forward, Jesus spoke to them, saying, all authority was given to me in heaven and upon earth. (Matthew 28:18 [ABP])

God gave Jesus Christ, his very own image, dominion and authority over all heaven and earth, making Jesus to be God over his creation. Lets jump to another example of where God gives authority and power to beings that he creates,

Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1)

Notice how God said he made Moses as God to Pharaoh. Moses was acting as God to Pharaoh on behalf of God. And in acting as God what did Moses do? He brought forth the plagues of Egypt showing the power of God. He was acting as God to Pharaoh because God made him so, and through Moses God brought forth his power and wonders. Now we know that the actual power to carry out these mighty deeds comes from the Father, and even in Jesus speaking the world into existence, it was the Father who carried out the actual bringing forth into existence. The Father chooses beings he created to be conduits, or even puppets, or "images", to carry out his mighty works. Could the Father have done everything himself? Absolutely, but he chooses to carry out his mighty works through beings he has created, because in doing so does he give authority to sons he has engendered, some lesser and some great authority, and Jesus himself being of the greatest authority, with greater power than even Moses, and in God acting through them is the Father himself also glorified.

So up to this point, we have concluded several things. That the Father brought forth the Son into existence and founded the earth and prepared the heaven, and the son spoke things unto existence upon the foundation the Father placed.

May God bless you and open your understanding. This teaching can also be found on my blog at http://www.wisdomofgod.co/2015/12/1...-also-began-only-the-father-has-no-beginning/ .

 

[Wgw]

First and foremost, the pre-existence of Jesus in the beginning does not imply that he has always existed, although it is true that he did pre-exist. The scriptures are very clear in this. How this is possible is miraculous. But just as God is able to resurrect a body and place in it the mind of someone that has been deceased, so is he able to place the the same mind that spoke the world into existence into a new earthly body. Before the Word began speaking things into existence, the earth and the water already existed, as it is said,

[1] In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. [2] But the earth was unseen and unready, and darkness was upon the abyss, and spirit of God bore upon the water. [3] And God said, Let there be light! And there was light.
(Genesis 1:1-3 [ABP])

Notice how "the earth was unseen and unready". The earth was ALREADY THERE BEFORE the Word began speaking things into existence! And not just the earth, but the water as well. How is this possible if the Word hasn't started speaking yet? Its because it was THE FATHER that established the foundation FIRST, and THEN the Word began speaking. What did the Word do exactly? It brought into existence things that FILLED the earth and the heaven. The Father ESTABLISHED, the Word FILLED. In Colossians we even read,

[15] who is the image of the unseen God, first-born of all creation; [16] for in him were created the whole, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- the visible and the unseen; whether thrones, whether lordships, whether sovereignties, whether authorities; the whole through him and in him have been created.
(Colossians 1:15-16 [ABP])

Here we read that in the Word was created "the whole" (Greek word "pas"), which means "all", all what? The THINGS in the heavens, and the THINGS upon the earth. Colossians even goes further and says, "the visible and the unseen; whether thrones, whether lordships, whether sovereignties, whether authorities". The Word created all these THINGS that FILLED the heaven and the earth. And it because of this, that the Word is also mentioned in this scripture as the "first-born of all creation", because it created ALL THE THINGS that FILLED the heaven and the earth. Why is this of great significance? Because it demonstrates two actions, the Father creating a foundation, and then the Word creating THINGS upon that foundation. As it is even written,

God in wisdom founded the earth; and he prepared the heavens in intelligence. (Proverbs 3:19 [ABP])

It was the Father who FOUNDED the earth, and PREPARED the heaven. Also we read,

the one laying the foundation for the earth in its stability (it shall not lean into the eon of the eon); (Psalms 104:5 [ABP])

The Father laid the foundation of the earth. Also we read,

Where were you in my laying the foundation for the earth? And report to me! if you should have knowledge of understanding. (Job 38:4 [ABP])

Again, the Father laid the foundation of the earth. Taking this further, we have just established that the heaven and earth were not created by the speech (Word) of God, but rather, everything IN IT was created by the speech. So now what we have here is a conclusion that the Father did create certain things first BEFORE the speech began uttering things to FILL IT and bring ORDER to it. What did the Father first create to lay his foundation? He created and prepared the heaven. He laid the foundation of the earth. He created water upon the earth. He created his spirit, or rather air (Air and spirit are synonymous throughout scripture) that bore upon the water, and he created words (or rather, he created the Word, to speak THINGS into existence that are to fill the heaven and earth). Now, these things existed in the very beginning before the speech began uttering, therefore it is not indicative that they have always existed, but rather, that they were created by the Father when he laid the foundation of the earth and prepared the heaven.

And aside from what the Father created himself, we also have affirmation that the Word himself created,

[1] In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and [*4*God *3*was *1*the *2*word]. [2] This one was in the beginning with God. [3] All through him existed, and apart from him existed not even one thing which exists.
(John 1:1-3 [ABP])

Notice how it says, "All through him existed". This isn't talking about the heaven and earth as you might think, otherwise it would contradict other scripture, it is talking about everything ON the earth, or rather the "world". As you even read further,

[*2*in *3*the *4*world *1*He was], and the world by him existed, and the world [*2*him *3*not *1*knew]. (John 1:10 [ABP])

The world is everything that is created ON the earth, living things, kingdoms, etc. The world is not the earth, the world is on the earth. Notice how it even says that the world knew him not. Its not saying, the earth didn't know him, its saying the people of the world didn't know him. We see this clear usage of the word world in other instances,

[15] Do not love the world, nor the things in the world! If anyone should love the world, [*5*is not *1*the *2*love *3*of the *4*father] in him; [16] for every thing in the world– the desire of the flesh, and the desire of the eyes, and the ostentatiousness of existence, is not of the father, but [*2*of *3*the *4*world *1*is].
(I John 2:15-16 [ABP])

Jesus is not saying don't love the earth, he's saying don't love the world, meaning the current world that exists on the earth. Here is another instance,

If the world detests you, know that [*2*me *3*first *4*before you *1*it detested]! (John 15:18 [ABP])

Here also, its not talking about the earth. The earth doesn't detest Jesus Christ, but rather, it is the world, or rather, the PEOPLE of the world. So again, the word "world" conveys the things that are currently UPON the earth. It also conveys a way of life in the current world by the people of the current world. It is also evil.

Going further, Jesus also affirmed himself to be I AM. In saying this, he wasn't affirming that he has always existed as the Father does, but rather, that he is self sustaining, as the Father is,

For as the father has life in himself, so he gave also to the son [*2*life *1*to have] in himself; (John 5:26 [ABP])

Notice how it is the Father that GIVES the son to have life in himself. And also, Jesus also says that the Father is greater than he is,

You heard that I said to you, I go away, and I come to you. If you loved me, you would have rejoiced that I said, I go to the father, for my father [*2*greater than *3*me *1*is]. (John 14:28 [ABP])

So up to this point, we have concluded several things. That the Father created by setting the foundation, that the Word filled that foundation with what we know now as the world, that the Word pre-existed before he created the world (things on the earth), but yet in pre-existing before the world (things on the earth) was created it does not indicate that he has no beginning as the Father does, but rather, when the Father laid the foundation of the heaven and earth, he also created his Word (along with the air/spirit that bore upon that water that was present in the earth), that he used to speak the "world" (things on the earth) into existence on the earth, and then send his Word later on to die for the "world" (living things on the earth).

This doctrine is, as far as I can tell, roughly what Arius taught. "There was a time when the Son was not." As such, I simply need to observe, while this thread remains in General Theology, that this is, in my opinion at least, contrary to the Nicene Creed; I think most members would agree that it contradicts if nothing else, the intent of the Nicene fathers such as St. Athanasius.

Aside from being contrary to Nicea, this position also seems to reject the clear meaning of John 1:1-14, even though you do quote it. In particular, you seem to read John 1:1 as not saying "the Word was God," and to ignore at peast implicitly John 1:14. The passage makes no sense if we read that as implying a speech, a verbal sequence, somehow became incarnate; through God all things are possible, but that would surely be a "stretch" rather contrary to the way God seems to prefer to do things throughout the Bible.

Rather if we accept John 1:1-14, then it becomes clear that Jesus Christ is co-eternal and consubstantial with God the Father, and is the incarnate Word. This is why the Creed describes him as "very God of very God."

 

[cgaviria]

This doctrine is, as far as I can tell, roughly what Arius taught. "There was a time when the Son was not." As such, I simply need to observe, while this thread remains in General Theology, that this is, in my opinion at least, contrary to the Nicene Creed; I think most members would agree that it contradicts if nothing else, the intent of the Nicene fathers such as St. Athanasius.

Aside from being contrary to Nicea, this position also seems to reject the clear meaning of John 1:1-14, even though you do quote it. In particular, you seem to read John 1:1 as not saying "the Word was God," and to ignore at peast implicitly John 1:14. The passage makes no sense if we read that as implying a speech, a verbal sequence, somehow became incarnate; through God all things are possible, but that would surely be a "stretch" rather contrary to the way God seems to prefer to do things throughout the Bible.

Rather if we accept John 1:1-14, then it becomes clear that Jesus Christ is co-eternal and consubstantial with God the Father, and is the incarnate Word. This is why the Creed describes him as "very God of very God."

I appreciate your response. As I explained though in the passage in John 1:14, the word "world" doesn't convey the earth, but rather the things that were made ON the earth as you read the entire context of that scripture. This coincides with other passages in the scriptures I quoted as well. Unfortunately, we read the scriptures based on a translation, so we have to study the words used in their original language, in this case, in the Greek, and how they are used in other passages. Here the word "world" conveys exactly what I am explaining as is defined in the Greek and also by its usage in other passages.

 

[cgaviria]

And also, the "Word" does mean speech. Look at other references in scripture using the same Greek word "logos",

But let be your word -- a yes, Yes! a no, No! but anything extra than these [*2*of *3*the *4*wicked one *1*is]. (Matthew 5:37 [ABP])

The "word" here is referencing to communication, or speech, or what someone says. So back to the scriptures in John and in Genesis, how did the "Word" create the "world"? It was by "speaking". Hence in Genesis we have utterances that brought things into existence, such as "let there be light". It was spoken into existence, by Jesus, who is the "speech" of God.

 

[Wgw]

I appreciate your response. As I explained though in the passage in John 1:14, the word "world" doesn't convey the earth, but rather the things that were made ON the earth as you read the entire context of that scripture. This coincides with other passages in the scriptures I quoted as well. Unfortunately, we read the scriptures based on a translation, so we have to study the words used in their original language, in this case, in the Greek, and how they are used in other passages. Here the word "world" conveys exactly what I am explaining as is defined in the Greek and also by its usage in other passages.

You did not in fact address John 1:14, which has nothing to do with the World, rather: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth."

Now in fact, the Nicene Fathers spoke Koine Greek either natively or as a well understood second langauge. Their position, which aligns with the Statement of Faith of these forums (which is basically the Nicene Creed), was to reject emphatically what Arius said when he said "There was a time when [Jesus Christ] was not."

What is more, even Arius did not reject the identification in John 1:1-14 of Jesus Christ with the Word.

 

[Wgw]

And also, the "Word" does mean speech. Look at other references in scripture using the same Greek word "logos",

But let be your word -- a yes, Yes! a no, No! but anything extra than these [*2*of *3*the *4*wicked one *1*is]. (Matthew 5:37 [ABP])

The "word" here is referencing to communication, or speech, or what someone says. So back to the scriptures in John and in Genesis, how did the "Word" create the "world"? It was by "speaking". Hence in Genesis we have utterances that brought things into existence, such as "let there be light". It was spoken into existence, by Jesus, who is the "speech" of God.

If you are now saying Jesus is the Word, then I agree, although, not so far as saying he is the speech per se. Rather the word Logos conveys in the Greek a broader theological and philosophical implication which can refer to the personified Truth of God; the idea of the Logos was anticipated in Plato and other classics of Greek philosophy.

 

[brinny]

Jesus Christ Did Pre-Exist, but He also Began. Only the Father Has No Beginning

Are you saying that Jesus Christ was "created"?

 

[cgaviria]

You did not in fact address John 1:14, which has nothing to do with the World, rather: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth."

Now in fact, the Nicene Fathers spoke Koine Greek either natively or as a well understood second langauge. Their position, which aligns with the Statement of Faith of these forums (which is basically the Nicene Creed), was to reject emphatically what Arius said when he said "There was a time when [Jesus Christ] was not."

What is more, even Arius did not reject the identification in John 1:1-14 of Jesus Christ with the Word.

It's not just an issue of understanding word definitions or if they understood Greek, it is also about understanding the scripture itself, and also other scriptures, and what is really happening, and what it really is saying. When I read this scripture in its full context, along with Colossians, and along with the account of Genesis, I am driven to the conclusion that the Father laid the foundation of the earth and prepared the heaven, and Jesus created the "world" that is upon the earth. I encourage you to reread my post. Especially from the account of Genesis, on how things already existed before the Word began speaking.

 

[cgaviria]

Jesus Christ Did Pre-Exist, but He also Began. Only the Father Has No Beginning

Are you saying that Jesus Christ was "created"?

I am, yes. And I have provided scriptures and explanation indicating this.

 

[Wgw]

It's not just an issue of understanding word definitions or if they understood Greek, it is also about understanding the scripture itself, and also other scriptures, and what is really happening, and what it really is saying. When I read this scripture in its full context, along with Colossians, and along with the account of Genesis, I am driven to the conclusion that the Father laid the foundation of the earth and prepared the heaven, and Jesus created the "world" that is upon the earth. I encourage you to reread my post. Especially from the account of Genesis, on how things already existed before the Word began speaking.

The problem with your approach is that as Nicene Christians, we are required to adhere to the Nicene Creed. We do not adopt a "do it ourselves approach," particularly not on my Orthodox denomination.

 

[brinny]

I am, yes. And I have provided scriptures and explanation indicating this.

What version of the Bible are you using as a reference?

 

[Wgw]

I am, yes. And I have provided scriptures and explanation indicating this.

Right; that is full-on Arianism and directly contradicts the Nicene Creed. I suggest we have this discussion moved to Controversial Theology so we can continue in that forum, as General Theology is not the place for this sort of discussion.

 

[cgaviria]

If you are now saying Jesus is the Word, then I agree, although, not so far as saying he is the speech per se. Rather the word Logos conveys in the Greek a broader theological and philosophical implication which can refer to the personified Truth of God; the idea of the Logos was anticipated in Plato and other classics of Greek philosophy.

I wasn't at any point ever denying that Jesus was the Word. I was, rather, giving clarity on what it means that Jesus is the Word. It was when God uttered "Let there be light", it was Jesus who uttered that word, or rather that speech mentioned in Genesis. The connection of Jesus creating the "world" in John AS THE WORD, or rather THE SPEECH, is made in Genesis when GOD SPOKE and said, "let there be light".

 

[cgaviria]

Right; that is full-on Arianism and directly contradicts the Nicene Creed. I suggest we have this discussion moved to Controversial Theology so we can continue in that forum, as General Theology is not the place for this sort of discussion.

It is general theology, its scriptural, on a topic that accounts for the general creation of all things and the order of things that were created.

 

[cgaviria]

What version of the Bible are you using as a reference?

I am using the Apostolic Bible Polyglot which is an excellent newer translation based on the Greek Septuagint. http://www.apostolicbible.com/

 

[brinny]

I am using the Apostolic Bible Polyglot which is an excellent newer translation based on the Greek Septuagint. http://www.apostolicbible.com/

In this version, what does it state about the nature of God?

 

[cgaviria]

The problem with your approach is that as Nicene Christians, we are required to adhere to the Nicene Creed. We do not adopt a "do it ourselves approach," particularly not on my Orthodox denomination.

The Nicene Creed is a false declaration. It declares "And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church." The catholic church is a false church and I don't base my understanding on anything declared in association with it. Rather, I base my understanding on scripture. If you wish to refute what I am saying, then do so with scripture only. If you can show me with scripture that I am wrong, I will bend my understanding, because to me scripture is the only authority and truth that guides me.

 

[brinny]

The Nicene Creed is a false declaration. It declares "And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church." The catholic church is a false church and I don't base my understanding on anything declared in association with it. Rather, I base my understanding on scripture. If you wish to refute what I am saying, then do so with scripture only. If you can show me with scripture that I am wrong, I will bend my understanding, because to me scripture is the only authority and truth that guides me.

by catholic, i believe the Nicene Creed is referred to Christ's universal church.

 

[Wgw]

The Nicene Creed is a false declaration. It declares "And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church." The catholic church is a false church and I don't base my understanding on anything declared in association with it. Rather, I base my understanding on scripture. If you wish to refute what I am saying, then do so with scripture only. If you can show me with scripture that I am wrong, I will bend my understanding, because to me scripture is the only authority and truth that guides me.

The Statement of Faith of this site clarifies this issue:

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)

*The word "catholic" (literally, "complete," "universal," or "according to the whole") refers to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ and not necessarily or exclusively to any particular visible denomination, institution, or doctrine.

 

[cgaviria]

In this version, what does it state about the nature of God?

It's no different than what you would find in a King James bible, but rather, it uses easier to understand terminology and interlinear text which also makes it easier to see the exact Greek words being used per English word. I think this is key, because as I explained in an earlier post, alot does get lost in translation, and often times we must research the original words to try to find the original meanings. Take for example the word "forever" in most translations of the bible. That is actually a mistranslation. The word should be, into the "eon" (or variations of eons). So in the book of Revelation, you have translations of "forever and ever". How can you add ever to something thats already forever? Makes no sense. The real translation should have been eons and eons, (or a variant of that, as there are eon of eons, etc). God has constrained things he has created into certain time limits that are lengthy time frames, eons. So again, my point being, you have to go to the original words to try to get the original meanings.