James says faith without works is dead.

[Soyeong]

Agreed. Works without faith? I don't know about that...

Next I would have to ask myself exactly what works are expected. Don't sin? I don't know if that is wholly possible for me.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

OT Scripture, and in specific God's code of conduct in His law are profitable for training in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work. God said it wasn't too difficult:

Romans 10:8-9 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Quoting from here:

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

Through faith and with God all things are possible. The law could not cause us to obey it, so God did what the law could not do by sending His Son to die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and to free us from slavery to sin, and sent His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) so that we might meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). When He who began a good work in us is faithful to complete on the day of Christ Jesus, we will be made to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct like Christ in obedience to the law.

 

[AsPatat]

2 Timothy 3:16-17 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

OT Scripture, and in specific God's code of conduct in His law are profitable for training in righteousness and equipping us to do every good work. God said it wasn't too difficult:

Romans 10:8-9 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Quoting from here:

Deuteronomy 30:11-14 For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’ 14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.

Through faith and with God all things are possible. The law could not cause us to obey it, so God did what the law could not do by sending His Son to die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins and to free us from slavery to sin, and sent His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the law (Ezekiel 36:26-27) so that we might meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). When He who began a good work in us is faithful to complete on the day of Christ Jesus, we will be made to have a holy, righteous, and good conduct like Christ in obedience to the law.

Matthew 7:12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets.

John 8:7 But when they went on with their questions, he got up and said to them, Let him among you who is without sin be the first to send a stone at her.

 

[Soyeong]

Matthew 7:12 All things therefore whatsoever ye would that men should do unto you, even so do ye also unto them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Love is the essence of the law or what it all about and all of God's commands are in regard to how we are to love Him or our neighbor. For instance, the first four of the Ten Commandments are about how to love God and the last six are about how to love your neighbor. Saying we just need to love our neighbor while ignoring God's instructions for how we are to love our neighbor is completely missing the point.

John 8:7 But when they went on with their questions, he got up and said to them, Let him among you who is without sin be the first to send a stone at her.

This passage is an example of Jesus following the law, not changing it. She did not confess to the crime, there were no witnesses, and there was no magistrate to pronounce a sentence, so if he had said to stone her, then he would have sinned in violation of the law.

 

[AsPatat]

Love is the essence of the law or what it all about and all of God's commands are in regard to how we are to love Him or our neighbor. For instance, the first four of the Ten Commandments are about how to love God and the last six are about how to love your neighbor. Saying we just need to love our neighbor while ignoring God's instructions for how we are to love our neighbor is completely missing the point.

Yup, and I can not sincerely tell you that I have always loved God with my whole heart, and will always continue to do so in future. I also don't sincerely always love all my neighbors, not to mention my enemies. While I agree with you that the spirit of the law is not hard and not far, I have found obeying it perfectly rather hard. Would you conclude from this that I have no faith? I have some faith because it was given to me. That has lead to some works. I am still working on more. I don't consider myself complete in any way. You could pray for me.

This passage is an example of Jesus following the law, not changing it. She did not confess to the crime, there were no witnesses, and there was no magistrate to pronounce a sentence, so if he had said to stone her, then he would have sinned in violation of the law.

The scribes and Pharisees intended to test Jesus on the law. They left when he replied as he did. Maybe she was guilty, maybe not. Maybe I was guilty and received mercy and further opportunities.

 

[AsPatat]

Love is the essence of the law or what it all about and all of God's commands are in regard to how we are to love Him or our neighbor. For instance, the first four of the Ten Commandments are about how to love God and the last six are about how to love your neighbor. Saying we just need to love our neighbor while ignoring God's instructions for how we are to love our neighbor is completely missing the point.

P.S. I am not denying that faith without works is dead. I am just questioning the nature and maybe quantity of said works.

 

[Thursday]

Are you just throwing out terms now? Or do you not understand what I explained in my previous post? Or is it that you do understand my point but disagree with it?

You are rationalizing.

Five points Calvinists believe that our actions have no impact on our salvation. Look it up if you don't believe me.

 

[Sophrosyne]

James says faith without works is dead.

Discuss.


....

I guess the thief on the cross next to Jesus had "dead" faith then, and I guess those who are quadraplegics who in their minds accept Jesus are "dead" too.

 

[Thursday]

I guess the thief on the cross next to Jesus had "dead" faith then, and I guess those who are quadraplegics who in their minds accept Jesus are "dead" too.

Thoughts and words are also works.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Thoughts and words are also works.

Explain how these two people did works to me then.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I've often wonder for those who promote a version of "works" based salvation how many works must one do to be "saved"? Is God fair and does he give everyone the same amount of works or is he unfair and ask little of some and a lot of others lest he decide to refuse to "save" them because of their "inferior" works.

 

[Thursday]

Explain how these two people did works to me then.

The thief confessed his sin and asked to be with Jesus.

He did what was possible given his circumstances.

 

[Thursday]

I've often wonder for those who promote a version of "works" based salvation how many works must one do to be "saved"? Is God fair and does he give everyone the same amount of works or is he unfair and ask little of some and a lot of others lest he decide to refuse to "save" them because of their "inferior" works.

You could also ask, how much faith must a person have to be saved.

For the record, Catholics believe that we are saved by grace through faith and works.

 

[Sophrosyne]

You could also ask, how much faith must a person have to be saved.

For the record, Catholics believe that we are saved by grace through faith and works.

So in other words you believe that "works" creates more faith in a person?
And yes, I know what Catholics say about salvation, and I'm not really interested in discussing Catholic beliefs but rather interested in how one can truly know they are saved once works enter the equation.

 

[Albion]

You are rationalizing.

Five points Calvinists believe that our actions have no impact on our salvation. Look it up if you don't believe me.

What you have written here is correct. More or less. It's not what you wrote before, however, and that was not correct.

For the record, Catholics believe that we are saved by grace through faith and works.

The Protestant parallel to that statement would, therefore, be 'Protestants believe that we are saved by grace through faith.'

There will be good works, but they do not contribute to our chances of being saved.

 

[Thursday]

So in other words you believe that "works" creates more faith in a person?
And yes, I know what Catholics say about salvation, and I'm not really interested in discussing Catholic beliefs but rather interested in how one can truly know they are saved once works enter the equation.

How can anyone know? Paul said that even he didn't know.

We must press on for the prize with hope and confidence.

Jesus said we must pick up our cross and follow, not pick up our cross, put it down and take a nap.

 

[AsPatat]

I've often wonder for those who promote a version of "works" based salvation how many works must one do to be "saved"? Is God fair and does he give everyone the same amount of works or is he unfair and ask little of some and a lot of others lest he decide to refuse to "save" them because of their "inferior" works.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, who knew his lord's will, and made not ready, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]; 48 but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom they commit much, of him will they ask the more.

 

[Thursday]

The Protestant parallel to that statement would, therefore, be 'Protestants believe that we are saved by grace through faith.'

I know. Unfortunately, that is contradicted by the teachings of Jesus and the other NT writers.


Do you believe a person will be saved if he believes in Jesus but consistently disobeys his teachings without ever repenting?

 

[Sophrosyne]

What you have written here is correct. More or less. It's not what you wrote before, however, and that was not correct.


The Protestant parallel to that statement would, therefore, be 'Protestants believe that we are saved by grace through faith.'

I believe what Paul said:
Ephesians 2:8-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Albion]

Thoughts and words are also works.

Usually not. A kind word given to a neighbor might be a good work but only because the act was charitable.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Luke 12:47 And that servant, who knew his lord's will, and made not ready, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]; 48 but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom they commit much, of him will they ask the more.

That doesn't answer the question I presented, instead if you are applying this to salvation you are saying that people who profess Jesus as savior yet don't do enough works are beaten by God.