I've lost sight of what environmentalism is trying to achieve :(

[OldWiseGuy]

One big problem is debt, which causes companies to exploit the earth beyond what is needed, just to make the payments or keep share values high.

 

[Loudmouth]

One big problem is debt, which causes companies to exploit the earth beyond what is needed, just to make the payments or keep share values high.

I am not an expert in economics, but it seems to me that the market should reflect the cost of production. The problem is that the cost is being set by a country that doesn't care about the environmental impact of rare earth mines. This makes it very difficult for mines in the US to compete because they are required to protect the environment. This seems to be the root cause of debt in US mines.

 

[dad]

I am not an expert in economics, but it seems to me that the market should reflect the cost of production. The problem is that the cost is being set by a country that doesn't care about the environmental impact of rare earth mines. This makes it very difficult for mines in the US to compete because they are required to protect the environment. This seems to be the root cause of debt in US mines.

There IS no answer in a world of sin. There will always be something and someone else to blame. Environmentalism is merely a pretense that man can save himself!

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I am not an expert in economics, but it seems to me that the market should reflect the cost of production. The problem is that the cost is being set by a country that doesn't care about the environmental impact of rare earth mines. This makes it very difficult for mines in the US to compete because they are required to protect the environment. This seems to be the root cause of debt in US mines.

If we have enough of those rare earth minerals here we should mine them here regardless of the higher cost. We need to pay more for stuff to maintain our lifestyle. Also the 'cost' of production of just about anything these days includes the company's debt. Debt service is often the largest single cost of business, especially startups that borrow lot's of money. Investors and stockholders need to be satisfied as well or they'll pull their money (sell their stock) and go elsewhere.

Business has a "grow or die" mentality, so they leverage their assets into loans instead of building equity. The debt burden becomes the 800 pound gorilla in the boardroom and drives almost all aspects of their business. What they don't realize is that with a decade or so of prudent management, building equity, they could put themselves in a very good competitive situation.

 

[dad]

If we have enough of those rare earth minerals here we should mine them here regardless of the higher cost. We need to pay more for stuff to maintain our lifestyle. .

A sin lifestyle for the world comes with problems. Some countries think they should be the ones to have a superior lifestyle.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

A sin lifestyle for the world comes with problems. Some countries think they should be the ones to have a superior lifestyle.

Many think they already have achieved this; Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, Switzerland, Finland.

 

[dad]

Many think they already have achieved this; Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, Switzerland, Finland.

They think they are sitting pretty? Now the trick is to have the world sit pretty, and all with a 'lifestyle' that doesn't kill us all. There is no answer in a world in sin. We need outside help.

 

[Loudmouth]

If we have enough of those rare earth minerals here we should mine them here regardless of the higher cost. We need to pay more for stuff to maintain our lifestyle.

Companies aren't big on paying more for the same materials.

Also the 'cost' of production of just about anything these days includes the company's debt.

The cost of manufacture is a different column than debt.

Business has a "grow or die" mentality, so they leverage their assets into loans instead of building equity. The debt burden becomes the 800 pound gorilla in the boardroom and drives almost all aspects of their business. What they don't realize is that with a decade or so of prudent management, building equity, they could put themselves in a very good competitive situation.

Then how do you propose that these mines build the needed infrastructure to mine these elements? The last US mine shut down because they were leaking wastewater, and after repairing the problems they had used up a ton of dollars with no income to show for it. It has been largely inactive since 2002.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_rare_earth_mine

China, on the other hand, could care less if they are leaking wastewater into a dam.

 

[eclipsenow]

"Except those days be shortened.............."

I don't think trite eschatological replies reduce the importance to love our neighbour in all things environmental!

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Companies aren't big on paying more for the same materials.

This has become a national security issue as well as an economic one.

The cost of manufacture is a different column than debt.

Debt service is included in the final price of any product.

Then how do you propose that these mines build the needed infrastructure to mine these elements? The last US mine shut down because they were leaking wastewater, and after repairing the problems they had used up a ton of dollars with no income to show for it. It has been largely inactive since 2002.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Pass_rare_earth_mine

China, on the other hand, could care less if they are leaking wastewater into a dam.

According to the Wiki article U.S. production will resume.

Sorry, I don't know how to separate quotes within a thread. Maybe you can help me. Thanks.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I don't think trite eschatological replies reduce the importance to love our neighbour in all things environmental!

The scripture hints that the elect will be doing the right thing. Not enough however to save mankind from the consequences of their sins. It is for the elect's sake, in part because of their efforts at holding back the tide of destruction, that not all 'flesh' will perish.

The long and short of it is that the heart must be connected to the head if love is to function properly.

 

[eclipsenow]

That passage was talking about the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD, and possibly echoing the basic themes of suffering down through all the Last Days (since Act2 and counting). So it's actually a little bit off topic, and not that easy to apply to the complex technological, political, and social conscience voting consequences of clear environmental thinking.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That passage was talking about the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD, and possibly echoing the basic themes of suffering down through all the Last Days (since Act2 and counting). So it's actually a little bit off topic, and not that easy to apply to the complex technological, political, and social conscience voting consequences of clear environmental thinking.

My point is that we are not going to solve these environmental problems, and they will eventually help to kill us. My reference of "except those days be shortened" means that only God will save us from ourselves. Well intentioned people are powerless against the forces of destruction regardless of how they vote.

Here's good example of what I mean,
http://grist.org/climate-energy/europe-is-burning-our-forests-for-renewable-energy-wait-what/

 

[eclipsenow]

My point is that we are not going to solve these environmental problems, and they will eventually help to kill us. My reference of "except those days be shortened" means that only God will save us from ourselves. Well intentioned people are powerless against the forces of destruction regardless of how they vote.

That's not what that passage is about, and we are not meant to give up doing good in the face of various challenges.
Cholera epidemic in London? Build sewers.
Smallpox epidemic killing millions? Develop vaccine.
Lead poisoning retarding our children and polluting our cities? Remove lead as petroleum lubricant.
Asbestos dust poisoning blue collar workers and giving them lung cancer? Remove asbestos as a building product.
Climate change is the same, a social justice issue just like cholera, smallpox, lead poisoning or even other issues like child slavery or injustice to the poor. We have to try. We are commanded to love our neighbour!

Here's good example of what I mean,
http://grist.org/climate-energy/europe-is-burning-our-forests-for-renewable-energy-wait-what/

Yes, biofuels are never going to replace oil or coal. There simply isn't enough land to generate the energy we need! Coal and oil and gas represent 10's of millions of years of stored sunlight. So what to do? Fortunately, the nuclear-bonds in uranium are 2 MILLION times more energy dense than the chemical bonds in fossil fuels. Only 1kg could run your whole life: that's a golf ball of uranium, to power your 70+ years on this earth, with all the energy it takes to cook up the hydrogen or other synfuels you need for transport. Even better? New reactors get every tiny bit of energy out of the uranium. Today's nuclear 'waste' could run the world for 500 years! There's enough easily mined uranium and thorium to run the world for 50,000 years (in breeder reactors that eat nuclear waste), then uranium from seawater could run the world forever (until the Lord returns, or at least hundreds of millions of years).

 

[OldWiseGuy]

That's not what that passage is about, and we are not meant to give up doing good in the face of various challenges.

Matthew 24 deals with the end time tribulation, which is primarily caused by man himself. All the good done by folks like you and I won't stop it from happening. There's just too much evil in the world.

Cholera epidemic in London? Build sewers.
Smallpox epidemic killing millions? Develop vaccine.
Lead poisoning retarding our children and polluting our cities? Remove lead as petroleum lubricant.
Asbestos dust poisoning blue collar workers and giving them lung cancer? Remove asbestos as a building product.

We have replaced those diseases and poisons with worse ones. One step forward, two steps back.

Climate change is the same, a social justice issue just like cholera, smallpox, lead poisoning or even other issues like child slavery or injustice to the poor. We have to try. We are commanded to love our neighbour!

I try as hard as anyone, but I believe the bible end-of-story is accurate.


Yes, biofuels are never going to replace oil or coal. There simply isn't enough land to generate the energy we need! Coal and oil and gas represent 10's of millions of years of stored sunlight. So what to do? Fortunately, the nuclear-bonds in uranium are 2 MILLION times more energy dense than the chemical bonds in fossil fuels. Only 1kg could run your whole life: that's a golf ball of uranium, to power your 70+ years on this earth, with all the energy it takes to cook up the hydrogen or other synfuels you need for transport. Even better? New reactors get every tiny bit of energy out of the uranium. Today's nuclear 'waste' could run the world for 500 years! There's enough easily mined uranium and thorium to run the world for 50,000 years (in breeder reactors that eat nuclear waste), then uranium from seawater could run the world forever (until the Lord returns, or at least hundreds of millions of years).

I'm all for nuclear energy.

 

[Viren]

There IS no answer in a world of sin. There will always be something and someone else to blame. Environmentalism is merely a pretense that man can save himself!

I just see it as tending creation.

The goal of environmentalism is how tend it the best way possible. How we can live with the rest of life in a sustainable way so future generations can enjoy it too.

 

[dad]

I just see it as tending creation.

The goal of environmentalism is how tend it the best way possible. How we can live with the rest of life in a sustainable way so future generations can enjoy it too.

You can tend till the cows come home you won't save the planet. There is no sustainable way with sin! That's a pipe dream.

 

[dad]

That's not what that passage is about, and we are not meant to give up doing good in the face of various challenges.
Cholera epidemic in London? Build sewers.
Smallpox epidemic killing millions? Develop vaccine.
Lead poisoning retarding our children and polluting our cities? Remove lead as petroleum lubricant.
Asbestos dust poisoning blue collar workers and giving them lung cancer? Remove asbestos as a building product.
Climate change is the same, a social justice issue just like cholera, smallpox, lead poisoning or even other issues like child slavery or injustice to the poor. We have to try. We are commanded to love our neighbour!

If one worries about commandments of Christ, they would have priorities. We would be more concerned with what kids are taught, than putting a better fuel economy system into a pagan temple perhaps.

 

[Viren]

You can tend till the cows come home you won't save the planet. There is no sustainable way with sin! That's a pipe dream.

I don't know the native American's did pretty well at it for a few thousand years. We just need to realize that biologically at least we are integrated into the rest of life on the planet.

 

[eclipsenow]

Matthew 24 deals with the end time tribulation, which is primarily caused by man himself. All the good done by folks like you and I won't stop it from happening. There's just too much evil in the world.

Sorry mate, but I'm amil. In Titus fulfilled everything Jesus said about that old temple about 2000 years ago when he destroyed it in AD70, and Jesus himself will fulfil everything else when he returns. (There were 2 questions in the passage, and futurists mix up the 2 subjects by throwing everything Jesus said about that temple off to some hypothetical third temple 2000+ years later!) This isn't really the thread to discuss this, so if you want to discover it further then come on over to this thread.
Future reinstitution of Temple worship, with animal sacrifices