Is The Modern Filling Of The Spirit The Same As On The Day Of Pentecost?

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The principal characteristic of a church filled with the Holy Spirit is that it has a major impact on the unconverted community around it. The original Pentecostals were totally mission oriented, and early gatherings had a major impact on the communities around them. By the second generation of Pentecostals, the mission orientation started to take second place and the churches became inward looking. If 120 who originally got baptised with the Holy Spirit made a serious impact on the city and 3000 people ended up turning to Christ. The emphasis was on Jesus and Him crucified. The community around Bethel church don't know it exists let alone what it stands for. So, if just 120 who were genuinely baptised with the Spirit turned the community upside down, you would think that several thousand at Bethel would turn the Redding community upside down and even have a dynamic effect statewide! But no. The unconverted community are untouched and wouldn't care a hill of beans about that church. This clearly shows that the "filling of the Spirit" is something quite different to what happened on the Day of Pentecost, and even the first generation Pentecostals. Even some of the best traditional Pentecostal church are demonstrating such a watered down "filling of the Spirit" that there is hardly a ripple outside their church buildings. Therefore Bethel is a false churchianity, made up of unconverted religious people still in their sins and will end up in hell if they don't repent.

 

[BobRyan]

The principal characteristic of a church filled with the Holy Spirit is that it has a major impact on the unconverted community around it. The original Pentecostals were totally mission oriented, and early gatherings had a major impact on the communities around them. By the second generation of Pentecostals, the mission orientation started to take second place and the churches became inward looking. If 120 who originally got baptised with the Holy Spirit made a serious impact on the city and 3000 people ended up turning to Christ. The emphasis was on Jesus and Him crucified. The community around Bethel church don't know it exists let alone what it stands for. So, if just 120 who were genuinely baptised with the Spirit turned the community upside down, you would think that several thousand at Bethel would turn the Redding community upside down and even have a dynamic effect statewide! But no. The unconverted community are untouched and wouldn't care a hill of beans about that church. This clearly shows that the "filling of the Spirit" is something quite different to what happened on the Day of Pentecost, and even the first generation Pentecostals. Even some of the best traditional Pentecostal church are demonstrating such a watered down "filling of the Spirit" that there is hardly a ripple outside their church buildings. Therefore Bethel is a false churchianity, made up of unconverted religious people still in their sins and will end up in hell if they don't repent.

The modern idea of spiritual gifts is not what you see in Acts 2 or 1 Cor 14. So yeah - that is a good point in your OP!

 

[Diamond7]

By the second generation of Pentecostals

The Charismatics learned from the Pentecostals but they were a lot more "gift" oriented. They considered themselves fruit inspectors and believe that the Fruit and Gifts were evidence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The principal characteristic of a church filled with the Holy Spirit is that it has a major impact on the unconverted community around it. The original Pentecostals were totally mission oriented, and early gatherings had a major impact on the communities around them. By the second generation of Pentecostals, the mission orientation started to take second place and the churches became inward looking. If 120 who originally got baptised with the Holy Spirit made a serious impact on the city and 3000 people ended up turning to Christ. The emphasis was on Jesus and Him crucified. The community around Bethel church don't know it exists let alone what it stands for. So, if just 120 who were genuinely baptised with the Spirit turned the community upside down, you would think that several thousand at Bethel would turn the Redding community upside down and even have a dynamic effect statewide! But no. The unconverted community are untouched and wouldn't care a hill of beans about that church. This clearly shows that the "filling of the Spirit" is something quite different to what happened on the Day of Pentecost, and even the first generation Pentecostals. Even some of the best traditional Pentecostal church are demonstrating such a watered down "filling of the Spirit" that there is hardly a ripple outside their church buildings. Therefore Bethel is a false churchianity, made up of unconverted religious people still in their sins and will end up in hell if they don't repent.

I believe the Day of Pentecost was a one time unique moment when the Holy Spirit came for the first time and filled belivers. It did spread on that day to a few thousand more people but after that it was a one on one or household to household experience. Bethel Redding has far more egregious problems on its hands.
Blessings.

 

[sandman]

The principal characteristic of a church filled with the Holy Spirit is that it has a major impact on the unconverted community around it. The original Pentecostals were totally mission oriented, and early gatherings had a major impact on the communities around them. By the second generation of Pentecostals, the mission orientation started to take second place and the churches became inward looking. If 120 who originally got baptised with the Holy Spirit made a serious impact on the city and 3000 people ended up turning to Christ. The emphasis was on Jesus and Him crucified. The community around Bethel church don't know it exists let alone what it stands for. So, if just 120 who were genuinely baptised with the Spirit turned the community upside down, you would think that several thousand at Bethel would turn the Redding community upside down and even have a dynamic effect statewide! But no. The unconverted community are untouched and wouldn't care a hill of beans about that church. This clearly shows that the "filling of the Spirit" is something quite different to what happened on the Day of Pentecost, and even the first generation Pentecostals. Even some of the best traditional Pentecostal church are demonstrating such a watered down "filling of the Spirit" that there is hardly a ripple outside their church buildings. Therefore Bethel is a false churchianity, made up of unconverted religious people still in their sins and will end up in hell if they don't repent.

The original outpouring had some serious backing …

With the resurrection of Jesus from the dead and all the events that had taken place.... there was quite a stir and this was in the forefront of their minds.

Then you have 12 people (apostles) sitting in the temple (not the upper room) at the hour of prayer which was on the sabbath and also was the Feast of Weeks which is the reason for the various nations being present (Act 2:5).

(There were not “about” 120 in the original outpouring …. “just the 12” … follow the noun /pronouns from Acts 1:26. Confirmed in Act 2:14.

The cloven tongues “like as of” fire was the phenomena…the miracle was that the tongues they spoke could be understood by the Judeans that were present for the Feast. …that is what drew the crowds.

Act 2:6 when this was noised abroad… (the authentic social media ….”word of mouth”)

Tongues was not the gift …the gift was the indwelling of holy spirit. Tongues is a manifestation of the gift, and it hasn’t changed. How people manifest tongues has been corrupted with the slain in the spirit, rolling around on the floor, blurting out uncontrollably, snake charming …and other things ….

God says decently and in order.

 

[BobRyan]

Then you have 12 people (apostles) sitting in the temple (not the upper room) at the hour of prayer which was on the sabbath and also was the Feast of Weeks which is the reason for the various nations being present (Act 2:5).

(There were not “about” 120 in the original outpouring …. “just the 12”

There were no chapter divisions in the book of Acts when it was written so what we have is this

7 But He said to them, “It is not for you to know periods of time or appointed times which the Father has set by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and Samaria, and as far as the remotest part of the earth.”​

...​

12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mountain called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey away. 13 When they had entered the city, they went up to the upstairs room where they were staying, that is, Peter, John, James, and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. 14 All these were continually devoting themselves with one mind to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.​

​

15 At this time Peter stood up among the brothers and sisters (a group of about 120 people was there together), and said, 16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. ....​

​

When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a noise like a violent rushing wind came from heaven, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And tongues that looked like fire appeared to them, distributing themselves, and a tongue rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues, as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out.​

​

5 Now there were Jews residing in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together and they were bewildered, because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?​

​

So there it appears to be 120 people who get the outpouring of the Holy Spirit - and they "began to speak with different tongues

The cloven tongues “like as of” fire was the phenomena…the miracle was that the tongues they spoke could be understood by the Judeans

The miracle in the text is that "they began to speak with different tongues".

8 And how is it that we each hear them in our own language to which we were born? 9 Parthians, Medes, and Elamites, and residents of Mesopotamia, Judea, and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya around Cyrene, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues of the mighty deeds of God.” 12 And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others were jeering and saying, “They are full of sweet wine!”​

So instead of "just Judeans" we have all these other languages as well as those from Judea

in our own language to which we were born? 9
, Medes
, and Elamites
, and residents of Mesopotamia
, Judea
, and Cappadocia
, Pontus and Asia
, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia
, Egypt and the parts of Libya around Cyrene
, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues

Hearing all those different languages at one time sounded like confusion to some of them...so some accused them of being drunk

And they all continued in amazement and great perplexity, saying to one another, “What does this mean?” 13 But others were jeering and saying, “They are full of sweet wine!”​

Peter points out that the miracle is in the one's speaking in the various tongues -

​

14 But Peter, taking his stand with the other eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, know this, and pay attention to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you assume, since it is only the third hour of the day; 16 but this is what has been spoken through the prophet Joel:​

​

17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,​

‘That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;​

And your sons and your daughters will prophesy,​

And your young men will see visions,​

And your old men will have dreams;​

Peter points out that the ones speaking have the gift of the Holy Spirit - (i.e. - the saved saints not the unconverted lost people in the crowd

Tongues was not the gift …the gift was the indwelling of holy spirit.

It appears that Peter says these people do have that gift and that this explains why so many from different parts of the world can hear someone speaking to them in their own language. It also explains why others can hear many different tongues (languages) at once and think that those who are speaking are drunk.

==================================

Acts 15 -​

6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.​

Peter says the Apostles and Elders come together and are reminded that God gave the Holy Spirit's gift of tongues to gentiles in Acts 10 just as He did "to us"... the Apostles and Elders.,

Acts 10:

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter responded,​

​

1 Cor 14 Paul tells us that the gift of tongues is for the purpose of evangelizing the unsaved - just as we see it being done in Acts 2.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I believe the Day of Pentecost was a one time unique moment when the Holy Spirit came for the first time and filled belivers. It did spread on that day to a few thousand more people but after that it was a one on one or household to household experience. Bethel Redding has far more egregious problems on its hands.
Blessings.

I heard a story about a pastor who questioned why in the previous five years, in spite of scores of people coming forward to receive Christ in its regular evangelical campaigns that the church not grown at all. He said that he would expected significant growth from the large numbers of first-time converts, so he asked, "Where did all these converts go?" It seems that the only answer is that the conversions in most cases were just mental, after saying short sinners prayer, and no heart-conversions to Christ resulted. The so called converts walked away just to continue their sinful lives with the mistaken notion that "now I am saved". The result is that either the new converts never joined the church, or if they did, they came for a couple of weeks, then dropped out. This showed that all they got was religion for a little while, but were not genuinely born again by the Holy Spirit. It also shows that most evangelical campaigns are a waste of time and promote just easy believerism instead of genuine repentance from sin.

It is interesting that the last thing that Jesus said to His Apostles was "go into all the world and make disciples". Yet, the last thing that Jesus said to the Church (in Revelation), was "Repent!" So, the elephant in the room is that churches who have not fully repented of lukewarmness, worldliness, and works of the flesh, are trying to make disciples for Christ, and are either making children of hell like themselves, or failing to make disciples at all. I think the Scripture is very relevant to our modern churches: "Judgment must begin at the house of God" because the problem is not with the White House or the state of our societies, it is the state of the Church.

 

[sandman]

There were no chapter divisions in the book of Acts when it was written so what we have is this

I agree

So there it appears to be 120 people who get the outpouring of the Holy Spirit - and they "began to speak with different tongues

You stopped at verse 15



Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.


They… are who? The eleven plus Matthias


Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

“These” is referring to the previous verse.

The miracle in the text is that "they began to speak with different tongues".

Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

The word Jews and its derivatives in the Bible should always be translated as Judean or of the Judean religion….

It is critical to note that Judeans (which is the word I used) by religion were the only ones present in the temple on the day of Pentecost (Feast of Weeks)

The Galileans (Apostles) at the time only spoke northern Aramaic which was very different from southern Aramaic ….but on Pentecost the tongues the Apostles spoke was a perfect language and dialects which caused the Judeans to marvel….there was very little respect for the Galileans by the Judeans ...but Pentecost altered that.

1 Cor 14 Paul tells us that the gift of tongues is for the purpose of evangelizing the unsaved - just as we see it being done in Acts 2.

The tongues spoken was the miracle since it is not commonplace as speaking in tongues is ….It does on occasion happen but it is rare.

Peter in Acts 10 (and 15 recounting the event) is talking about the gift of holy spirit to the gentiles not the gift of tongues the gift of holy spirit ….tongues is the evidence (manifestation) of the gift of holy spirit.

The word gift has been added by translators and is not well supplied in first Corinthians 12:1, 13:2, 14:1 and 14:12.. the word spiritual in 12:1 and 14:1 is pneumatikos meaning things of the spirit .....it may include gifts but is not specific to gifts.

In 1Co 12:7 God is specific regarding the word manifestation.

12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

A manifestation is not a gift …. Just as a phone is not a text message. A phone can be a gift … and texting would be the manifestation of the gift.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The original outpouring had some serious backing …

With the resurrection of Jesus from the dead and all the events that had taken place.... there was quite a stir and this was in the forefront of their minds.

Then you have 12 people (apostles) sitting in the temple (not the upper room) at the hour of prayer which was on the sabbath and also was the Feast of Weeks which is the reason for the various nations being present (Act 2:5).

(There were not “about” 120 in the original outpouring …. “just the 12” … follow the noun /pronouns from Acts 1:26. Confirmed in Act 2:14.

The cloven tongues “like as of” fire was the phenomena…the miracle was that the tongues they spoke could be understood by the Judeans that were present for the Feast. …that is what drew the crowds.

Act 2:6 when this was noised abroad… (the authentic social media ….”word of mouth”)

Tongues was not the gift …the gift was the indwelling of holy spirit. Tongues is a manifestation of the gift, and it hasn’t changed. How people manifest tongues has been corrupted with the slain in the spirit, rolling around on the floor, blurting out uncontrollably, snake charming …and other things ….

God says decently and in order.

Luke says definitely that there were 120 in that upper room. You need to read the whole narrative, not pluck a part out of it.

The present state of the Church is not about whether people have or don't have tongues. Some of the greatest saints of God who were involved in major revivals and won thousands to Christ, never spoke in tongues, nor did they do the other things you say. Nor did the first generation Pentecostals. They viewed the filling of the Spirit as power to go out and win souls for Christ. Hence, there were, and are many more Pentecostal missionaries than any others. If a church says it is Pentecostal and does not have a missions focus as their main priority, then they are not truly Pentecostal even though they may speak in tongues.

Genuine disciples for Christ demonstrate a concern for lost souls by getting out there and preaching the Gospel. People caught up in religion argue over theology and care only with what they want to believe.

 

[BobRyan]

Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

The word Jews and its derivatives in the Bible should always be translated as Judean or of the Judean religion….

It is critical to note that Judeans (which is the word I used) by religion were the only ones present in the temple on the day of Pentecost (Feast of Weeks)

The problem (as we see in the case of the Septuagint) is the having the same religion is not the same as having the same language - hence the need for a Greek translation of the Bible for Jews. That is why Judea is included as being among the many regions where the language specific to that region is also being represented. Having 120 speakers instead of just 12 makes that long list - much more reasonable as an example of the tongues all being spoken at the same time.

So instead of "just Judeans" we have all these other languages as well as those from Judea

in our own language to which we were born? 9
, Medes
, and Elamites
, and residents of Mesopotamia
, Judea
, and Cappadocia
, Pontus and Asia
, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia
, Egypt and the parts of Libya around Cyrene
, and visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues

Peter in Acts 10 (and 15 recounting the event) is talking about the gift of holy spirit to the gentiles not the gift of tongues

The text specifically says tongues in Acts 10 -- it was the sign that they had received one of the spiritual gifts - of the Holy Spirit and an argument in favor of baptism.

Acts 10:
45 All the Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had also been poured out on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter responded, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I agree


You stopped at verse 15



Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.


They… are who? The eleven plus Matthias


Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

“These” is referring to the previous verse.



Act 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

The word Jews and its derivatives in the Bible should always be translated as Judean or of the Judean religion….

It is critical to note that Judeans (which is the word I used) by religion were the only ones present in the temple on the day of Pentecost (Feast of Weeks)

The Galileans (Apostles) at the time only spoke northern Aramaic which was very different from southern Aramaic ….but on Pentecost the tongues the Apostles spoke was a perfect language and dialects which caused the Judeans to marvel….there was very little respect for the Galileans by the Judeans ...but Pentecost altered that.

The tongues spoken was the miracle since it is not commonplace as speaking in tongues is ….It does on occasion happen but it is rare.

Peter in Acts 10 (and 15 recounting the event) is talking about the gift of holy spirit to the gentiles not the gift of tongues the gift of holy spirit ….tongues is the evidence (manifestation) of the gift of holy spirit.

The word gift has been added by translators and is not well supplied in first Corinthians 12:1, 13:2, 14:1 and 14:12.. the word spiritual in 12:1 and 14:1 is pneumatikos meaning things of the spirit .....it may include gifts but is not specific to gifts.

In 1Co 12:7 God is specific regarding the word manifestation.

12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

A manifestation is not a gift …. Just as a phone is not a text message. A phone can be a gift … and texting would be the manifestation of the gift.

The point I am making is that 95% of churches, whether they identify themselves as Pentecostal, Charismatic, or whatever denomination, are pretending to be Spirit filled, when they are not. I don't give two hoots about whether they speak in tongues or not, or whether they have manifestation of gifts. If the unsaved community don't know they are there and are largely unaffected by the churches, that is evidence that the Holy Spirit is nowhere near them. The glory has departed, that is, if it was ever there in the first place.

There is a major difference between a church that has the glory of God in it, and one that is just playing at church. A church that doesn't have the glory of God in it, and that is what being Spirit filled really means, is just a religious 'bless me' club that just caters for its members and no one else. Leonard Ravenhill's book "Why Revival Tarries" applies just as much to modern churches as it did when it was written, and it doesn't matter whether a church claims to have tongues, gifts, or any other manifestations. If it doesn't meet the criteria of being holy, separate from the world and having genuine concern for lost souls, and is soaked in prayer for the lost, then it is not a genuinely Spirit-filled church.

A church that is inward looking and just playing at religion and saying that they are trying to win souls for Christ, are just being like a fisherman fishing in his bathtub. But a truly Spirit filled church seeking the lost for Christ have people, like the late David Wilkerson, going out into the most decadent areas of town where the drug addicts and prostitutes are to being the Gospel to them, because he and people like him believe in going fishing where the fish are.

If there were just 12 people who were baptised with the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, then that was a much greater miracle, because the whole city was stirred up just because of 12 people! A Charismatic mega church boasting 10,000 Spirit-filled people where the community around it don't know it is there and is unaffected by it, has to show that these 10,000 are just pretending to be Spirit filled because there is no evidence of any effect on the community.

The reason why the AOG church in Africa is the fastest growing church group is that it sends people into the worst areas of the cities and gets people genuinely converted to Christ. There are many in the African churches who are considering sending missionaries to the US because they see the dire need for the Gospel to be preached there and for genuine converts to be won for Christ to compensate for the failure of American churches to do what the African churches are successfully doing.

 

[BobRyan]

Acts 1: 14 All these were continually devoting themselves with one mind to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.15 At this time Peter stood up among the brothers and sisters (a group of about 120 people was there together), and said, 16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. ..Acts 2:1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly a noise like a violent rushing wind came from heaven, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And tongues that looked like fire appeared to them, distributing themselves, and a tongue rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with different tongues, as the Spirit was giving them the ability to speak out.​

​

5 Now there were Jews residing in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together and they were bewildered, because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language. 7 They were amazed and astonished, saying, “Why, are not all these who are speaking Galileans?​

​

So there it appears to be 120 people who get the outpouring of the Holy Spirit - and they "began to speak with different tongues

You stopped at verse 15

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

They… are who?

In Acts 1:15 it says it is 120 consisting of the 12 and their family and friends as listed. But the 12 are always identified as the leaders - the group in charge so then Matthias not simply "numbered among believing followers of Christ" -- but among the 12 Apostles. Not all of the 12 were Apostles.

The eleven plus Matthias

Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

 

[BobRyan]

The word gift has been added by translators and is not well supplied in first Corinthians 12:1, 13:2, 14:1 and 14:12.. the word spiritual in 12:1 and 14:1 is pneumatikos meaning things of the spirit .....it may include gifts but is not specific to gifts.

In 1Co 12:7 God is specific regarding the word manifestation.

12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

A manifestation is not a gift …. Just as a phone is not a text message. A phone can be a gift … and texting would be the manifestation of the gift.

1 Cor 12:
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

1 Cor 12: vs 28 appears to include tongues among the gifts:

"then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?" 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.​

 

[sandman]

They were not in the upper room!

Luke says definitely that there were 120 in that upper room. You need to read the whole narrative, not pluck a part out of it.

The present state of the Church is not about whether people have or don't have tongues. Some of the greatest saints of God who were involved in major revivals and won thousands to Christ, never spoke in tongues, nor did they do the other things you say. Nor did the first generation Pentecostals. They viewed the filling of the Spirit as power to go out and win souls for Christ. Hence, there were, and are many more Pentecostal missionaries than any others. If a church says it is Pentecostal and does not have a missions focus as their main priority, then they are not truly Pentecostal even though they may speak in tongues.

Genuine disciples for Christ demonstrate a concern for lost souls by getting out there and preaching the Gospel. People caught up in religion argue over theology and care only with what they want to believe.

It definitely does not say there were 120 in the upper room…Acts does state there were ABOUT 120, but not in the upper room.

Here is the narrative you believe I got wrong ….the only scripture I have left out was 6 scripture with details about Judas (Acts_1:17-22)

Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Who are they?.... It would be the 11 apostles since Judas was the only non-Galilean (as referring to the previous verse 11.)

Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room (hyperōon) where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

Act 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. (in the temple …NOT in the upper room)

The upper room were sleeping quarters of strictly men or strictly women … never mixed … no women were allowed in the men’s quarters or vise versa, not even for cleaning. …And you would never be able to fit about 120 in the upper room.

But where would you fit about 120 that would allow women also?

Luk 24:53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

During the hours of prayer …and maybe more, but especially during the hours of prayer.

Act 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Which days? The 10 days between the ascension and Pentecost

Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

↓

↓

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.



Keeping an eye on the pronouns they and them which is related to its closest associated noun…which is eleven apostles in 1:26

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
"And" is a conjunction relating to the previous verse 1:26
Where were they? Peter answers that in verse Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

The third hour of the day is our 9 am…. it is the first hour of prayer in the temple.

Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the *house where they were sitting.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


*Obviously, the house cannot be the upper room. The house is referencing the temple. The following verses are a few I picked that also refer to the temple as house (oikos)

Mat 12:4, Mat 21:13, Mar 2:26, Luk 6:4.



Much of what you wrote is true….. and much of what you wrote is speculation unless you have gotten revelation from God on speaking in tongues and the other manifestation of the spirit. There is no way you could know over the years who did what, when…. Extrabiblical writing do not detail everyone’s life from the time of Pentecost.

There is a purpose…. Actually, around 12 Benefits to speaking in tongues for the individual…. along with interpretation in a believers meeting. Which is why Paul stated “I thank my God I speak in tongues more than ye all”

I never push it…. I just make it available to all those I have witnessed to. When people understand the benefits, they want to …. I have never had anyone say no.

 

[BobRyan]

They were not in the upper room!

It definitely does not say there were 120 in the upper room…Acts does state there were ABOUT 120, but not in the upper room.

Here is the narrative you believe I got wrong ….the only scripture I have left out was 6 scripture with details about Judas (Acts_1:17-22)

Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Who are they?.... It would be the 11 apostles since Judas was the only non-Galilean (as referring to the previous verse 11.)

"They" would be about 500 people according to 1 Cor 15 - right?
6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep.

Acts 1: it is 120
...after He had given orders by the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom He had chosen. 3 To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of things regarding the kingdom of God. 4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
6 So, when they had come together, they began asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time that You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 But He said to them, “It is not for you to know periods of time or appointed times which the Father has set by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and Samaria, and as far as the remotest part of the earth.”
9 And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were watching, and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight. 10 And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, then behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them, 11 and they said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”
12 Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mountain called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey away. 13 When they had entered the city, they went up to the upstairs room where they were staying, that is, Peter, John, James, and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. 14 All these were continually devoting themselves with one mind to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

so then -- "not just the 12"

15 At this time Peter stood up among the brothers and sisters (a group of about 120 people was there together), and said,

-- very specifically "not just the 12"

Yet other accounts focus just on the 11.

Matt 28:
16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated to them. 17 And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to follow all that I commanded you; and behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

mark 16:
14 Later He appeared to the eleven disciples themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reprimanded them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen from the dead. 15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned. 17 These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
19 So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

They were not in the upper room!

It definitely does not say there were 120 in the upper room…Acts does state there were ABOUT 120, but not in the upper room.

Here is the narrative you believe I got wrong ….the only scripture I have left out was 6 scripture with details about Judas (Acts_1:17-22)

Act 1:12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

Who are they?.... It would be the 11 apostles since Judas was the only non-Galilean (as referring to the previous verse 11.)

Act 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room (hyperōon) where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

Act 1:14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren. (in the temple …NOT in the upper room)

The upper room were sleeping quarters of strictly men or strictly women … never mixed … no women were allowed in the men’s quarters or vise versa, not even for cleaning. …And you would never be able to fit about 120 in the upper room.

But where would you fit about 120 that would allow women also?

Luk 24:53 And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

During the hours of prayer …and maybe more, but especially during the hours of prayer.

Act 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Which days? The 10 days between the ascension and Pentecost

Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

↓

↓

Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.



Keeping an eye on the pronouns they and them which is related to its closest associated noun…which is eleven apostles in 1:26

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
"And" is a conjunction relating to the previous verse 1:26
Where were they? Peter answers that in verse Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

The third hour of the day is our 9 am…. it is the first hour of prayer in the temple.

Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the *house where they were sitting.

Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


*Obviously, the house cannot be the upper room. The house is referencing the temple. The following verses are a few I picked that also refer to the temple as house (oikos)

Mat 12:4, Mat 21:13, Mar 2:26, Luk 6:4.



Much of what you wrote is true….. and much of what you wrote is speculation unless you have gotten revelation from God on speaking in tongues and the other manifestation of the spirit. There is no way you could know over the years who did what, when…. Extrabiblical writing do not detail everyone’s life from the time of Pentecost.

There is a purpose…. Actually, around 12 Benefits to speaking in tongues for the individual…. along with interpretation in a believers meeting. Which is why Paul stated “I thank my God I speak in tongues more than ye all”

I never push it…. I just make it available to all those I have witnessed to. When people understand the benefits, they want to …. I have never had anyone say no.

If you want to hold to that, okay. But you have missed the point of my OP and have started a pointless debate over whether there were 120 or 12 in the upper room. It is because of useless debates like this in our churches that distract them away from what is most important - having the active involvement of the Holy Spirit which is shown through unsaved being convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment to come through the preaching of the Gospel. Most of our cities have churches of different denominations on each corner, that spend more time and energy ensuring that they teach the 'right' theology instead of spending time in prayer and seeking God for the power to go out and win souls for Christ in their community. A pastor of a church with 25,000 members confessed that the church did not have a prayer meeting. Seeing that the powerhouse of a church is its prayer meeting, is it no wonder that all their steam is going out through the whistle with speech making, motivational talk, and in some Charismatic churches public speaking in tongues unsupported by the Holy Spirit because Paul taught against the public use of it, and all sorts of idiotic fleshly behaviour such as falling down, rolling around the floor, jerking and shaking. Things that Jesus and the Apostles never did. And most of the churches have so embraced the customs and fashions of the world, that one cannot see the difference. They choose to ignore the Scripture: "A friend of the world is no friend of God" and "they who are in the flesh cannot please God." So many of these may think they are theologically "correct" but there will be many who are "correct" in hell one day.

 

[The Liturgist]

That is why Judea is included as being among the many regions where the language specific to that region is also being represented.

Which in the time of Christ was not Hebrew but Aramaic, which had displaced it except for liturgical use, and even then most Jews did not understand enough Hebrew to listen to the Torah and Haftarah unaided, hence the use of the Aramaic targumim (interpretations, which Yemenese Jews still use).

So really, the average Greek speaking Jew had better access to the Old Testament via the Septuagint than the average Aramaic speaking Jew.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

One thing I want to add to this thread is that we have no way of knowing whether the current Pentecostal movement has any similarity with the Pentecostal revival of the early 20th Century. The simple answer is that none of us were there at the start of the Pentecostal revival, especially during the events at Azusa Street. All we have are written testimonies and newspaper reports. We cannot rely on newspaper reports to give the facts because it is well known and accepted that newspaper reports are more opinion than facts. A newspaper reporter gives his opinion on what he thinks is happening. This is why those who are judging the early Pentecostal revival as false through the negative newspaper reports of the time are relying on the opinion of the authors of those newspaper articles.

As far as the testimonies of the authentic languages spoken when people spoke in tongues, such as the one who could only speak very broken English, after having hands laid on him to receive the Holy Spirit, burst forth in pure, fluent, unaccented English. We have to take the observer's word for it because he was an eye witness to that event. None of us were there to be eye witnesses, so we have no basis to judge whether the manifestation was real or not. The cessationists who concentrate on those who went to India and China trying to preach in tongues and failed, ignore the accounts of those who went to foreign countries and actually conversed the Gospel successfully in tongues. Again, none of us were there to verify or deny what actually happened.

The problem is that those who criticise the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements are basing their opinions on what is happening now. But we have no idea whether what is happening now is the same as what happened at the start of these movements. Things change from one generation to another. This happened with the early church. After the Apostle's generation died off, the early church became corrupted with all sorts of heresies, beliefs and practices that are not in the Scriptures. After two or three more generations, the church had evolved into something far different to what we read about in the Book of Acts. This is how the principle of "Chinese whispers" works. And in the same way, when a video tape is copied, then the quality is degraded with each copy, and when we watch a copy of a copy, the picture is fuzzy and out of focus. This what happened to the early church in successive generations.

I was involved in the New Zealand version of Teen Challenge in the early 1970s. It was a very successful organisation and won many to Christ. But when a new generation of leadership took over in the late 1970s, it lost most of its effectiveness and had degraded into just a drop in coffee bar with no new conversions to Christ.

So, the same principle happened with the Pentecostal Revival. At the start the emphasis was on personal holiness and a burden for souls for Christ. When people spoke in tongues, the authentic languages often brought sinners to Christ as native speakers understood what was being said. These were the prominent characteristics of the first generation Pentecostals. But in ten years, the emphasis had altered to personal spirituality and what was happening with self, and the influence on the unconverted was generally fading in preference to personal sensual experiences. So, if the cutting edge of the Pentecostal movement had gone blunt in 10 years, we can safely assume that the cutting edge after 110 years is no longer existent. This would make the modern Pentecostal movement a mere caricature of what it was.

It is the same with the Charismatic movement. The first generation Charismatics brought a renewal of the ministry of the Holy Spirit into their traditional denominations. Again, the emphasis was on holy living and a burden for lost souls. But by the 1970s, ten years later, it had become Charismatic in name but the original vision had faded. In Ten Challenge, as I mentioned before, it was started in New Zealand in the 1960s by Charismatics who had a real burden for the lost and were powerfully used by the Holy Spirit. But, 10 years later, that cutting edge was lost and Teen Challenge in New Zealand died out, because the new generation of leadership did not have the same vision as the originals.

It is interesting that at the start of the Brownsville Revival the emphasis was on holiness and the winning of souls for Christ through the powerful preaching of the Gospel. But again, within 10 years, it had lost its cutting edge because the emphasis moved away from personal holiness and a burden for souls, to a concentration of personal spirituality through sensual experiences. Through this, people falling over, jerking, head shaking, and idiotic behavior emerged which brought the revival into disrepute. Now, the Brownsville church is a shadow of what it was.

So, in many ways the cessationists who are showing that the current Pentecostal and Charismatic movements have real problems and issues, are correct according to what they see. This is because the current movements are nothing the revivals that occurred at the turn of the 20th Century, and the early 1960s. Prayer was prominent in the early revivals, but in modern times it has been replaced by motivational speech making giving promises that are not being fulfilled.

I think that the answer is to spend time with God in prayer to find what He wants to do in our churches. That takes time and effort, to continue in prayer and not to give up until the Holy Spirit falls in a true and real way to bring back the emphasis on holy living and a burden for the lost, instead of seeking sensual experiences to improve personal New Age type "spirituality".

It is interesting the the Asbury Revival started with holiness and the Gospel, but when it started to move away from the Gospel and into personal sensual experiences, the President of the College has announced the closure of the Revival to those outside of the staff and students of the theological college. I believe that this is to stop the charismania ones hijacking the revival and turning it into an uncontrolled farce. When there are prayerful people leading a revival, they are sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit and know when God tells them it is time to shut it down to outsiders. This is to preserve the value of what the Holy Spirit has achieved without it being corrupted. Already there are false reports of the revival by people who are not part of its hard core and who have little idea of what happened right at the start before the large influx of outsiders.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Insofar as all of us, who are in Christ, have received the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, partake of the singular and unique outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost. Pentecost was a unique historical moment, the fulfillment of the words of the Prophets and of our Lord's own promises, that the Holy Spirit would come and be our Comforter after the Lord had ascended.

Pentecost does not repeat itself, what God did already He has done for all. We do see a "little Pentecost" in the case of Cornelius and his household, but the context there was God demonstrating and revealing something for His Church: Don't exclude the Gentiles. What God had given in the beginning for them, and their call and work to be His witnesses to all nations means the inclusion of Gentiles.

The promise made for us is thus: "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." (Acts 2:38-39).

If we belong to Christ, then the Spirit lives in us, and we having been clothed with Christ (Galatians 3:27), and united to Christ's life, death, and resurrection (Romans 6:3-4) means the Holy Spirit lives in us, we are called children of God by adoption, being joint-heirs with Christ, and thus it is the Holy Spirit who therefore grants us the right to say, "Abba, Father"; to know Christ's Father as our Father.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Blade]

"Is The Modern Filling Of The Spirit The Same As On The Day Of Pentecost?"

Lets just make this simple yes. Oh I remember still see the man of God a known man telling people what happened back then (spirit field) does not happen any more. Here I am...seems its till does. They asked me if wanted the holy Spirit like the those in the bible I could say who? Do you want Him? Sure. So sat in this chair they all gathered around he read only what the bible said added nothing else. Then asked me again so I said yes. Then prayed one of the shortest prayers then just stopped and said and I quote "that's it you got it". See they believed if GOD said it He has to do it.

So that meant if I asked according to Luke 11:13 GOD would give me the holy Spirit. Odd how we oh just LOVE John 3:16 duh that's true but Luke 11:13 said by the same GOD..anyway. So I got up went to sit down and tongues just came out. Yeah no one said a word about tongues it just came out. OH PRAIES PRIAISE PRAISE GOD. It was exactly as Christ said. You shall receive power. I was saved going to heaven the day before but wow it was like NIGHT and DAY! You never ever ever ever get enough of Him. All you want is HIM. To do anything everything for Him. The love the joy.. oh man praise GOD GLORY TO JESUS!

So sure those that get saved have a taste but they do not have the sweet sweet holy Spirit. He told us to ask its only for believers. Christ prayed to the Father for this. He told them 120 not all men but told them to wait. And we hear all these stories about those PEOPLE acting strange yet the 120 looked drunk haha if your filled with the holy Spirt you know exactly what happened and still happens to us today.

So for me you should take all these posts and toss them. Well all you are getting is what some personally believe. So you ask Him Christ to open your eyes your read Luke 11:13 and if GOD said it maybe just do what He said. Just do what He said don't think about it. Its like one time He said to me "RUN" I thought run? Why run I am not scared. He came right back with "when GOD tells you do to something you don't question it you just do it". You read Luke 11:13 Christ is not the one that said it. He told us everything He said was the Fathers words.

This is a promise only to believers. The book of ACTS is Christianity. Everything that happened then has only grown today. Everything still is happening today. Those that doubt? No offense but you never have to worry you will never see any of this. He can not go against our will. So read listen for WHO is really doing the talking. Is it MAN telling you what GODS word is really saying? Is it MAN telling you "no that does not happen any more".

So me? I read His word I stand on what He said.. deaf still hear bind see lame walk dumb speak dead still come back to life. Happens every day. Don't believe me. How many say just that? Yeah I have no inside information about GOD. You can ask HIM...me? I WANT ALL OF HIM! I always believe. I have not to boast seen so many wonders why? I read His word and just BELIEVE! He always does what He said.

So blindly believe that means you put all your faith into onto HIM! That ALWAYS pleases HIM. With out FIATH we can never please Him.