Is the law eternal -- the book of Galatians.

[Joe67]

The following is a foundational principle concerning the Hagar relationship.

Gen 16:5
5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. KJV

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Our vision of the important feature of Galatians 4 cannot be expressed in the identical human words. This way of confessing Christ is what led to the papacy and all other religious institutions. We can have the unity of the Spirit of Jesus, while confessing him from our different visions of him.

I referred to an important feature of Galatians 4. I did not mean to suggest that it is the only important feature of Galatians 4. Rather, I was suggesting that--if we are going to discuss Galatians 4--we must grapple with the identity of Hagar.

The following is a foundational principle concerning the Hagar relationship.

Gen 16:5
5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. KJV

Thanks, Joe. This does provide more context regarding the reason why the command was given to get rid of the slave woman. However, it does not change the fact that she was removed.

Further, it does not change that which the slave woman represents. She represents the covenant that was from Sinai.

BFA

 

[Cribstyl]

Gal 4:21¶Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 4:22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.


This lesson about Sarah and Hagar is an example of the two covenants.
These two covenants are representive of two sons. The firstborn son was Ishmael, by a slavewomen from Egypt, this son came forth by the will of Sarah not God.

Gal 4:23But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.

Gen 21:12And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Isaac was the son that God promised, he came forth secondly and therefore Ishmael and his mother had to go away for God promised seed (Jesus) to come.

The sending away of Hagar is allergory of one covenant going away, making access for Jesus and the New Covenant to come in through Isaac's seed Jesus at Jerusalem.

 

[Joe67]

The covenant of God is one. He spoke to Abraham of "my covenant," when he gave the seal of circumcision to Abraham. The circumcision was a sign. The God given sign was a seal; something not desired, a sign of the faith, a seal of the righteousness he had while being uncircumcised. Yet God gave him to do this painful and humiliating work that did not count for righteousness.

BUT:

The seeds are two.

Gen 21:12-13
12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. KJV

The Egyptian seed through Hagar eagerly promises to obey the Lord as we saw at Mt. Sinai. They are quick to make a vow. They are uncircumcised in heart. Yet the Lord does not despise them. A remnant of them will be gathered unto the Lord.

The seed of Sarah says, "Here am I," when the Lord speaks. That is what Abram said when the Lord called his name.

Yet Abram gave birth to a son through an Egyptian woman, which son was his seed, just not his called seed. Abram was emotionally involved with Hagar and her son, the uncalled seed. The uncalled seed of Abram was circumcised; therein a partaker of the covenant of the Lord.

There is more to this than just what is on the surface.

Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The covenant of God is one.

BUT:

The seeds are two.

At a minimum, there are two covenants, the old and the new. The new is not like the old. Under the new covenant, the ministry of the Spirit--a ministry that brings life--is more glorious than the ministry of letters engraved on stones--a ministry that brings death.

The seeds represent two covenants (Paul writes, "These women are two covenants"). Hagar and her son represent the covenant that was from Sinai. Sarai represents Jerusalem above. Paul leaves no room for us to melt these two women into one woman representing a single "covenant of God."

Yet Abram gave birth to a son through an Egyptian woman, which son was his seed, just not his called seed. Abram was emotionally involved with Hagar and her son, the uncalled seed. The uncalled seed of Abram was circumcised; therein a partaker of the covenant of the Lord.

Yes, Hagar was a partaker. It is for this reason that Paul can use her to represent the covenant that was from Sinai.

There is more to this than just what is on the surface.

I'm not sure that there is. The allegory is pretty straightforward. It only becomes complicated as we seek to make the symbols relate to something other than what Paul has indicated.

BFA

 

[Joe67]

Gal 2:19
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.KJV

Rom 7:4
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; KJV

Rom 7:25
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. KJV

Rom 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death KJV

Rom 7:22
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: KJV

Gal 2:17
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. KJV

Gen 17:7
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
KJV

Gen 17:11
ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
KJV

Gen 17:13
my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.KJV

The witness of the Spirit in Galatians and Romans should lead us back to study and meditate upon this reality of the work of the Lord in and through Abraham and his family.

Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. KJV

Joe

 

[Cribstyl]

Gal 2:19
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.KJV

Rom 7:4
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; KJV

Rom 7:25
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. KJV

Rom 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death KJV

Rom 7:22
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: KJV

Gal 2:17
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. KJV

Gen 17:7
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
KJV

Gen 17:11
ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
KJV

Gen 17:13
my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.KJV

The witness of the Spirit in Galatians and Romans should lead us back to study and meditate upon this reality of the work of the Lord in and through Abraham and his family.

Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. KJV

Joe

Bit and pieces may work well with a blanket but not with the word of God.

 

[Joe67]

The gospel is the head of the body even as Christ is the head of man.

The election is the head of the gospel even as God is the head of Christ.

The gifts and calling of God is without repentance.

The times of the Gentiles have an end, just as the time of the Jews had an end.

The work of the Lord returns back to the fathers, what he revealed in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Thus the last two verses in Galatians is the summation of the entire letter. The summation is the recapitulation to the original theme, the fathers.

Joe

 

[Cribstyl]

The gospel is the head of the body even as Christ is the head of man.

Say what?....The scriptures teaches... "Christ is the head of the body..... so Joe, you should show us where it's written that the Gospel is the head of the body.Col 1:18, Eph 5:23

Yes Christ is the head of man1Cr 11:3 (credit when you're right)

The election is the head of the gospel even as God is the head of Christ.

I find no scriptures to support your claims Joe (post text, explain or recant)

The gifts and calling of God is without repentance.

OK

The times of the Gentiles have an end, just as the time of the Jews had an end.

OK

The work of the Lord returns back to the fathers, what he revealed in Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Thus the last two verses in Galatians is the summation of the entire letter. The summation is the recapitulation to the original theme, the fathers.

Joe

What do you mean by "the work of the Lord"? It's my understanding that the work of the Lord was to fulfill all that God promised to the fathers.Jhn 4:34Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.


We believe that Jesus said "it is finished" primarily because He had completed "the work."

The last 2verses in Galatians does not appear to summerize the letter.
However, the last chapter does reenforce that circumcision and uncircumcision is meaningless...... Being made a new creation who walks by the rules of faith.


Gal 6:11¶Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand.
Gal 6:12As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.
Gal 6:13For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
Gal 6:14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16¶And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.



What you fail to teach or address from Galatians is that the Law which came 430yrs after the promise was not part of the promises to the father.
The law came because of the peoples "transgression" in order to help the people recieve the promise.


The promise was Jesus ............When Jesus came even the law was fulfilled by Him.

False teachers debate without end on the word "transgression" and argue about a law being transgressed. The fact is commandments from God are not always a law for the world.
Adam transgressed a commandment not a law because the tree is not available to all.
The texts written from the jouney from Egypt to the giving of the law an Sinai teaches us how the people rebelled, complaint, and trangressed the commands that God was giving them.

 

[Joe67]

The promise was Jesus ............When Jesus came even the law was fulfilled by Him.

CRIB,

Yes, Jesus is the reality of all that the Father has promised. Let us accept each other in him in whom the promises of God are yes and amen. If we are not against him, we are for him.

Joe

 

[Cribstyl]

Joe, you're stable and respectable man, thank you for your patients with me.
I continue to hold people accountable to what they teach my christian family.

 

[Joe67]

Joe, you're stable and respectable man, thank you for your patients with me.
I continue to hold people accountable to what they teach my christian family.

CRIB,

It is good to be faithful in our house that the Lord gives.

Your brother in the Lord Jesus,
Joe

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Joe,

You have skipped some things in your presentation. The reasons why we have a different perspective on this subject can be found in the things you've skipped.

Gal 2:19
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.KJV

Paul goes on to say that the law does not produce righteousness. In the very next chapter, he demonstrates that the law had a limited purpose for a finite period of time and he proclaims that he is no longer under a schoolmaster. In the following chapter, he marvels at the Galatians' allegiance to days and weeks and seasons and years and he compares Hagar to the covenant that was from Sinai. In the chapter after that, he urges that we are no longer to live in the type of bondage that characterized the bondwoman . . . . the same bondwoman who represents the covenant that was from Sinai. These are some compelling points that seem to be missing in your presentation.

Gal 2:17
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. KJV

This is an interesting verse. It clearly indicates that Jesus Christ is separate from the law. Too many confuse the reality with the shadow as though the two are one and the same.

Rom 7:4
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; KJV

In the immediate context, Paul writes that he was made to die to the law so that he might live for another, and he implies that--if a man claims to be married to both the law and Jesus Christ--that man commits spiritual adultery. Also in the immediate context, Paul clarifies that the type of law that he is describing--the same law to which he must die--includes "thou shalt not covet."

Rom 7:22
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: KJV
Romans 7:25
So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. KJV

Many have suggested that these are the laws contemplated in Verses 1-6. However, to do so, one must:

(1) conclude that "the law of sin" has nothing to do with the ten commandments (which seems to negate the commonly held view that the ten commandments reveal sin); and

(2) conclude that the far removed context is more relevant than the immediate context.
​

Rom 8:2
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death KJV

Romans 8 provides a distinction between the Spirit and the law. Both 2 Corinthians 3 and Romans 8 demonstrate that the Spirit sets us free from the law and that this is a key ingredient of the new covenant. If the law reveals sin, then how shall we define "the law of sin?" There is no way to remove "the law" from "the law of sin and death."

Gen 17:7
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
KJV

This covenant was not "from Sinai." Rather, this is the promise made to Abraham. Galatians 3 differentiates the promises made to Abraham from the covenant made with Moses. Galatians 4 refers to the covenant that was "from Sinai;" this covenant is found in Exodus 19-20.

BFA

 

[Joe67]

BFA,

The law of "thou shall not covet" is not the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death is dead/dormant in us until we hear the law speaking to us, "thou shall not covet."

Then the law of sin and death comes into action and slays me and I die.

The end result is that Jesus delivers our mind from the control of the law of sin and death, but he does not deliver our flesh at this time.

So we need the continual speaking of the law against coveting for the law of sin and death to continually war. We need the daily, continual warfare of the law of sin and death so that it can finally be driven fully out of the land. The Lord does not deliver us fully at the beginning. Sufficient unto the day is the evil in it. We die daily, continually dying and rising.

Abram was not fully delivered from his old ideas and habits at the moment that the Lord first called him and he was credited with righteousness.

Circumcision came almost 24 years later. Then the loss of Ishmael, then the offering of Isaac and somewhere in the years he sent away the sons of Keturah to the east. These were painful, bitter events to him. He testified the 2nd time in his enduring these bitter events, though he despised the shame.

He was fully credited at the beginning, but he was not fully delivered in his inward parts until the Lord led him through all of these trials. Abram's inward deliverance is not worthy to be compared to his justification, but it was necessary lest he draw back unto perdition in seeking good human comfort and pleasure.

The pain of circumcision was a little bodily help in connection with the voice of the Lord speaking the will of God, to keep Abraham from drawing back in his disappointment at the rejection of Ishmael. The pain was a means of the grace of God for Abraham to be reconciled to the revealed will of God that was moving in the opposite direction of Abraham's feelings. Abraham was anguished but he did not stumble, he hoped while being against hope that what God said, God was able to perform; since Abraham's and Sarah's bodies were as good as dead.

Joe

 

[Joe67]

The law is not of faith.

The law brings us to Christ/faith.

Abraham is the father of faith.

A law brought Abraham to faith.

Abraham was 430 years before Sinai.

There was a law before the Sinai manifestation of law.

It is of faith that it might be by grace.

The law entered so that the offense might abound/increase.

Where sin abounds, grace much more abounds/increases.

That which has been, it will be again, even 3 times.

Law leads to faith which ends in grace, the way of salvation.

a three-fold cord is not soon broken.

Joe

 

[VictorC]

The law is not of faith.

The law brings us to Christ/faith.

Abraham is the father of faith.

A law brought Abraham to faith.

Scripture, please.
You merely assigned Galatians 3:24 to a time it didn't apply to.

Abraham was 430 years before Sinai.

There was a law before the Sinai manifestation of law.

Scripture, please.
The error in your logic resulted in a conclusion that contradicted Galatians 3:17.

Speaking of Abraham in Romans 4...

20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,
21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform.
22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness."
23 ¶ Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him,
24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead,
25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

This has no relation to the law, as Abraham wasn't even circumsized yet when he trusted God's ability to perform what He had promised. There was no law that led Abraham to faith, as faith was already present.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The law of "thou shall not covet" is not the law of sin and death.

Would you agree or disagree that the ministry of letters engraved on stones brings death? Does "the ministry of letters engraved on stones" include "thou shalt not covet?"

The law of sin and death is dead/dormant in us until we hear the law speaking to us, "thou shall not covet." Then the law of sin and death comes into action and slays me and I die. The end result is that Jesus delivers our mind from the control of the law of sin and death, but he does not deliver our flesh at this time.

I understand that this is your position. You've done an excellent job communicating it. We could probably go 'round and 'round on this for decades, and it will remain unlikely that I will join you in your conclusion. At the end of the day, I am persuaded by the entirety of the book of Romans, including verses 1-7. The entity to which I die includes "thou shalt not covet." I understand that we do not see this the same way.

So we need the continual speaking of the law against coveting for the law of sin and death to continually war.

So long as we have the Spirit convicting us of sin, then I submit that we do not.

Abram was not fully delivered from his old ideas and habits at the moment that the Lord first called him and he was credited with righteousness. . . . . . . He was fully credited at the beginning, but he was not fully delivered in his inward parts until the Lord led him through all of these trials.

We have no reason to conclude that Abraham was ever fully delivered from his old ideas and habits, and yet he was credited with righteousness. His track record in his family dealings reveals much about his ongoing status as a sinner -- even after circumcision and a lifetime of trials.

BFA

 

[Joe67]

Law has always been the instrument of God to lead to faith.

And then faith gives birth to a measure of grace to each part.

Grace is the final means of the purpose of God to bring forth a family.

It will be as God has purposed in himself.

Let everyman be fully persuaded in his own mind, even as Abraham was fully persuaded that what God had promised, that God was able to perform; and it was imputed unto Abraham as righteousness, though Abraham's and Sarah's bodies were as good as dead, at the age of 99 and 89 respectively.

Abraham, in his heart, did say, "Can a man 100 years of age give birth to a child?" This was not stumbling in unbelief.

Joe

 

[VictorC]

Law has always been the instrument of God to lead to faith.

Joe, I would really appreciate a response to my post. What you posted above is patently unBiblical.

 

[Joe67]

Mt. Sinai is symbolic of the darkness that surrounds the Most High. He dwells in this darkness. He is light and his son is the true light sent into this world. He sent forth the true light through the darkness of law. He is sending forth the true light into our hearts and minds through this same darkness. He will send forth his true light, Jesus Christ, through the darkness of the full measure of the wrath of the law when he comes to gather his family.

Law is always the schoolmaster that precedes the true light at each new development of the grace of God. First 30 fold, then 60 fold and finally 100 fold.

"He does this for a man, two yes three times."

Joe