Is the Great Tribulation impending ?

[Goatee]

We are told - when ye see all these things

beginning of sorrows/nation shall rise against nation////world war
abomination of desolation
sun darkened
the stars of heaven fall

See post 159 above

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Luke17:37]

The 144,000 on the mount are seen with a Lamb. This is not the same symbol that Rev. 5 had as to when John saw a Lamb as it had been slain. The people on the mount in Rev. 14 are no longer keeping faith in Jesus as to He will come someday and take the church
redeemed to heaven. These 144,000 will remain on the earth and learn a song that comes down out of heaven. They are among men, but only they can learn this song. They are not among angels or the four beasts, but located where non-saved men will also be on earth.

KJV
Revelation 14:1
"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb..."
Before this time John had already been telling us a prophecy about a Lamb and after marking that symbol's debut in Revelation, John called Him the Lamb. Now, we learn there is another scene of a Lamb, so John is no longer seeing Him as if slain.

Revelation 14:1
"And I looked,...a Lamb stood on the mount, and with him an hundred forty and four
thousand..."
John did not say-the 144,000.
John is just now seeing a group of 144,000. Since he never saw them be sealed in Rev. 7, he can't verify for sure that this is the same bunch of people.

Revelation 14:2
"And I heard a voice from heaven..."
So the mount in verse 1 was not located in heaven.
John had not heard this voice elsewhere in Revelation yet.

Revelation 14:2
"And I heard a voice from heaven....and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their
harps:"

Revelation 14:3
"And they sang as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders..."
The song is being sung as new - as in someone will learn it.
The four beasts are there and the elders, but they are not the singers.

Revelation 14:3
"....and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand..."
They are with the Lamb on the earth. ///among men

These 144,000 will restart Israel back her land, like foretold by Zephaniah.
Back in OT days it was the tribe of Levi that didn't have iniquity in their mouth, now
it will be the 144,000.

Zephaniah 3:12
"I will also leave in the midst of thee an afflicted and poor people, and they shall trust
in the name of the LORD."
Zephaniah 3:13
"The remnant of Israel shall not do iniquity, nor speak lies; neither shall a deceitful tongue
be found in their mouth..."
Zephaniah 3:14
"Sing, O daughter of Zion..."
Zephaniah 3:15
"The LORD hath taken away thy judgments..."
Zephaniah 3:17
'The LORD thy God in the midst of thee..."

I think it makes perfect sense to tie Revelation 7 and 14 together... 144,000 Jewish elect who God is supernaturally protecting from some of the plagues. You are getting really bogged down by words. I think this is the clear context. The are also referenced through the trumpets and bowls as "those having the seal of God on their foreheads." (Protected.)

It doesn't mean there aren't or won't be other Gentile or Jewish Christians (but in chapter 12, it says the dragon who can't get to the "woman" will persecute the rest of her offspring (who obey Jesus)... so probably most of them are martyred. And I wouldn't be surprised if Jews without the mark of the beast turn to Jesus near the very end of the Tribulation. Armageddon will be a test of their new faith, and God will show up as He promised... as they believed (Isaiah 25:9).

John saw heavenly scenes although his body was still on Patmos. Paul also saw visions of heaven. Nothing prohibits God from giving these strong Christians a vision and encouragement.

 

[Luke17:37]

The day or hour of His coming that we don't know is when heaven and earth is about to pass
away. The ten virgins parable is set for that timing, not the rapture.

And where does the Bible teach a rapture aside from His coming?

Matthew 24:30–31 (NKJV)
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thessalonians 2:1–3 (NKJV)
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,

 

[Goatee]

Some prophecies are very plainly written in Scripture.
All we have to do is bring the same type of verses together, such as all of the verses that tell us Jesus Christ will appear, reward, judge the dead, punish the wicked, and more.

Yes but still dangerous to predict what it means as things were written differently in those days with different meanings!

 

[Luke17:37]

Thing is, we shouldn't be reading it the way we see it in our modern language! In those days, words and sentences meant different things! People lived differently. We could be interpreting quite wrongly!

Do you hear what you are saying? This is what it sounds like to me: "I don't think it's possible for me to understand the Scripture. It might not mean what it appears to mean."

 

[Goatee]

Do you hear what you are saying? This is what it sounds like to me: "I don't think it's possible for me to understand the Scripture. It might not mean what it appears to mean."

Better than jumping to conclusions and interpreting it willy nilly!

 

[Luke17:37]

Sorry, but I've two computers over the last ten years downloading text files. Not saying you're one of the bad guys, but that amounts to a potential loss of fifteen hundred dollars. Perhaps you could just give me the "condensed" Reader's Digest Version in a few words. I don't require chapter and verse proof on every word, nor do I use the absents of such to discredit, or attack the beliefs of others, I don't roll that way. Some of the most profound and enlightening things I ever heard about the meaning of the Scriptures, came from simple men who spoke plainly in just a few words.

Hey - I am sorry about your computers. I have attached a PDF in case you are okay with that. I am writing from my computer instead of my smartphone. When I was on my smartphone, I couldn't just attach this PDF... which is why I attached the link to a Microsoft Word document instead. But here are the main points... I copied and pasted some of it.

Luke 17:34–37 (NKJV)
34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”
37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”
So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”

What is verse 37 about? The disciples wouldn't have asked where the left were - they are right where they were before the taken were taken. So they would have been asking about the taken. Jesus says of the taken, "Wherever the body/carcass is, there the eagles/vultures will be gathered together." So, who are the taken? There's not enough context here to say.

However, when I used to read this, I thought verses 34-36 were talking about a pre-tribulation rapture. Verse 37 really bothered me, though. Because I assumed the taken were the Christians, I didn't understand what Jesus meant. I had two main problems. If a person was raptured, wouldn’t their body be gone, and be transformed in the sky, not left on the earth to be eaten? (See 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 1 Corinthians 15:50-54.) Also, being eaten by a vulture instead of being buried sounded dishonorable... not like the way God would treat His saints.

Not long after begging God for wisdom, I discovered that the carcass and vulture verse was also included in Matthew 24. I decided to compare the passages side by side, hoping for some understanding. I also noticed there was something else in both passages - Jesus' comparison of the Day of the Son of Man with the flood of Noah's day. Read Matthew 24:36-44, and Luke 17:26-30.

In Luke, what happens when the flood comes? People are destroyed by the floodwaters. In Matthew, what happens when the flood comes? People are taken away (they die). Who died in Noah’s flood? The wicked. They refused to repent and be saved. Who then, are the taken at the return of Christ? The wicked. Then I understood that Jesus was speaking plainly – at His return, some of the wicked will be taken from life—they will die—and vultures would eat their flesh.

As I read more, the LORD confirmed my belief that to be eaten by vultures was a curse. These are some of the passages I consider relevant to this understanding: 2 Samuel 2:4–7, Deuteronomy 21:22–23, 2 Kings 9:10, Revelation 11:7-10, Jeremiah 25:30-33, Amos 2:1, 1 Kings 21:24, Jeremiah 7:30-34 (v 33.), Ezekiel 39:1-6 (v.4), Ezekiel 39:17-20.

When the disciples asked Jesus where the [taken] went, He could have just answered, “To the grave.” But Jesus actually gives us a vivid picture of the corpses being consumed by birds. Some may consider this allegorical, but I don’t. Read Revelation 19:17–18, 21. In Revelation 19, the LORD calls the birds to feast on the bodies of the people He will slay, and they obey Him.

Jesus provides some clues to help the elect differentiate false returns/false Christs from the true return/the true Christ. Read Matthew 24:23-28, Luke 17:22-24.

1. It will be as lateral lightning (everyone will see it).
2. People will die, and vultures will eat their flesh.

If Christ’s return is not filling our view, and if we do not see the corpses of the slain, He has not come; we should not let anyone deceive us. Also,
1. People will long for the day of Christ before it comes.
2. There will be false returns before the true return.

Also, Jesus warned against self-preservation of possessions or life at His expense. Read Matthew 28:15-22, Mark 13:14-20, Luke 17:31-3. What are Jesus’ instructions when they see the abomination that causes desolation? (To flee immediately, not going back for anything in their homes.) Do you think Jesus is talking simply about Judean believers fleeing in a hurry when they see the abomination that causes desolation, or do you think He’s talking about more than that? Why? Jesus mentioned Lot’s wife. What was He trying to tell us? (Genesis 19:15-17, 24-26). Why did she die? Lot’s wife disobeyed the angel’s command and looked back. The place she left was being destroyed. The Bible does not tell us why Lot’s wife looked back, but it revealed something about her heart. Perhaps she was torn up about leaving her dream house behind, her wealth, or her friends. Perhaps she even had a soft spot for Sodom. Whatever the reason, she disobeyed, because she was in some way holding too tightly to what God was in the process of destroying. In 2 Peter 3:10-18, Peter writes that with the day of the Lord elements will be dissolved with fervent heat. Since this world is passing away, our focus should be on eternal, not temporal life. “Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless” (2 Peter 3:14).

From Matthew 16:24-26, Luke 9:23-26 (also: Mark 8:34-38), what did Jesus command? Deny yourself; take up your cross daily; follow Me. What does it mean to take up your cross? What did Jesus imply? 1. Following Him is going to require daily tough choices. 2. Self-preservation of a physical life can lead to spiritual death.

God bless you.

 

[Luke17:37]

Better than jumping to conclusions and interpreting it willy nilly!

You are basically saying it's impossible to understand so it's not worth trying. That is not biblical.

 

[Goatee]

You are basically saying it's impossible to understand so it's not worth trying. That is not biblical.

I go on what the Catholic church say about it myself as i don't think we can jump to conclusions about what the text means unless one is an expert on writings of that time, culture and wording.

 

[Luke17:37]

I go on what the Catholic church say about it myself as i don't think we can jump to conclusions about what the text means unless one is an expert on writings of that time, culture and wording.

The "experts" of the law in Jesus day - the Pharisees and the Sadducees - were for the most part "blind guides" who did not believe the Scripture or understand the power of God and, according to Jesus, led many on the path to hell. Are you really willing to trust the Pope or the Roman Catholic Church to interpret Scripture for you? God gave you a mind and He gave you His Holy Scripture. For your sake, please use it.

 

[Goatee]

The "experts" of the law in Jesus day - the Pharisees and the Sadducees - were for the most part "blind guides" who did not believe the Scripture or understand the power of God and, according to Jesus, led many on the path to hell. Are you really willing to trust the Pope or the Roman Catholic Church to interpret Scripture for you? God gave you a mind and He gave you His Holy Scripture. For your sake, please use it.

Being a Catholic i trust that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church as Jesus did say even the gates of hell would not prevail against it! Better than being one individual relying on Sola Scriptura and coming up with their very 'OWN' ideas!

 

[Luke17:37]

Being a Catholic i trust that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church as Jesus did say even the gates of hell would not prevail against it! Better than being one individual relying on Sola Scriptura and coming up with their very 'OWN' ideas!

I am not just coming up with my own ideas. I am personally indwelled by the Holy Spirit, who enables me to gain understanding from His Scripture.

Recently the Pope said Christians don't need to witness to Jews. His implication is that the Jews are God's chosen people and they are going to heaven anyway. Jews need to hear the gospel - repentance and faith in Jesus' sacrifice for sins are the ONLY way to be saved - for Jew or Gentile (Romans 9, 1 Timothy 2:5–7, Ephesians 4:4-6).

Last year the Pope affirmed theistic evolution, which is also not biblical. God created in the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them in six ordinary days, just as He said (Genesis 1:1-2:3, Exodus 20:11), and it is incredibly important because the gospel hangs on Genesis 1-3 (God created a perfect world; man sinned; death was the penalty for sin; sin requires a blood sacrifice [Genesis 3:21], which a holy God alone is able to provide; God promised a Savior, Seed of the woman; the Messiah will save some of Adam's race and undo the curse). Death before sin/the curse would make God a liar and Jesus' death for naught. Also, holding to a biblical view of origins is actually important because at the root, a person should trust the authority of the Word of God because it is reliable. Also, a conscious rejection of God's clear teachings about the beginning (God's creation by water and the global flood) can lead to a rejection of the clear teaching of the literal bodily return of Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:3-9).

It sounds like you consider that the Pope, a man, is a greater authority than the Word of God. That is a lie from the enemy and it is a sin to consider a man's word as more authoritative than God's Word. God's Word is the ultimate authority and it will be fulfilled completely, even as it has partially (e.g., Jesus' first coming and the promised salvation).

Jesus was talking about Peter's confession of faith - "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." The gates of hell will not prevail against that. It is the message of Romans 8. Any shepherd can become deceived and lead the people of his flock to the grave, just like the Pharisees and Sadducees did in the days of Jesus' ministry, or the false prophets did during Israel's earlier history. That is why Jesus warned profusely of false prophets and false Christs and many confessed Christians being deceived. Peter and Paul and others also provided these warnings, as they were guided along by the Holy Spirit to pen the Scripture we have today.

 

[Goatee]

I am not just coming up with my own ideas. I am personally indwelled by the Holy Spirit, who enables me to gain understanding from His Scripture.

Recently the Pope said Christians don't need to witness to Jews. His implication is that the Jews are God's chosen people and they are going to heaven anyway. Jews need to hear the gospel - repentance and faith in Jesus' sacrifice for sins are the ONLY way to be saved - for Jew or Gentile (Romans 9, 1 Timothy 2:5–7, Ephesians 4:4-6).

Last year the Pope affirmed theistic evolution, which is also not biblical. God created in the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them in six ordinary days, just as He said (Genesis 1:1-2:3, Exodus 20:11), and it is incredibly important because the gospel hangs on Genesis 1-3 (God created a perfect world; man sinned; death was the penalty for sin; sin requires a blood sacrifice [Genesis 3:21], which a holy God alone is able to provide; God promised a Savior, Seed of the woman; the Messiah will save some of Adam's race and undo the curse). Death before sin/the curse would make God a liar and Jesus' death for naught. Also, holding to a biblical view of origins is actually important because at the root, a person should trust the authority of the Word of God because it is reliable. Also, a conscious rejection of God's clear teachings about the beginning (God's creation by water and the global flood) can lead to a rejection of the clear teaching of the literal bodily return of Jesus Christ (2 Peter 3:3-9).

It sounds like you consider that the Pope, a man, is a greater authority than the Word of God. That is a lie from the enemy and it is a sin to consider a man's word as more authoritative than God's Word. God's Word is the ultimate authority and it will be fulfilled completely, even as it has partially (e.g., Jesus' first coming and the promised salvation).

Jesus was talking about Peter's confession of faith - "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God." The gates of hell will not prevail against that. It is the message of Romans 8. Any shepherd can become deceived and lead the people of his flock to the grave, just like the Pharisees and Sadducees did in the days of Jesus' ministry, or the false prophets did during Israel's earlier history. That is why Jesus warned profusely of false prophets and false Christs and many confessed Christians being deceived. Peter and Paul and others also provided these warnings, as they were guided along by the Holy Spirit to pen the Scripture we have today.

If you are personally indwelled by the Holy Spirit, as you say, you would know the true meanings of scripture and thus know that the Catholic church is the church created by Jesus. There are too many people like you my friend who try and interpret scripture themselves and this is why we have a gazillion interpretations on every bit of scripture!

It doesn't surprise me in the least that you would also take the Popes words out of context and again interpret them as to how you see fit!

6 days to create the earth but, what is 6 days to God? Remember, you need to understand how scripture was laid out in those times. People didnt think like we do today. Didn't work like we do today. Didn't understand like we do today. What was written then was for the people of 'that' time to understand. They knew how to interpret scripture as it was written in a way for them to understand.

God bless you anyway buddy and i hope that one day you will come home to the Catholic church.

 

[Luke17:37]

If you are personally indwelled by the Holy Spirit, as you say, you would know the true meanings of scripture and thus know that the Catholic church is the church created by Jesus. There are too many people like you my friend who try and interpret scripture themselves and this is why we have a gazillion interpretations on every bit of scripture!

It doesn;t surprise me in the least that you would also take the Popes words out of context and again interpret them as to how you see fit!

6 days to create the earth but, what is 6 days to God? Remember, you need to understand how scripture was laid out in those times. People didnt think like we do today. Didn't work like we do today. Didn't understand like we do today. What was written then was for the people of 'that' time to understand. They knew how to interpret scripture as it was written in a way for them to understand.

God bless you anyway buddy and i hope that one day you will come home to the Catholic church.

The Roman Catholic Church didn't start until circa 300 AD.

6 days means 6 ordinary days.

Genesis 1:3-4
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

God could not have been more clear in defining the day. Rejection of God's creation by water and the global flood is tied has its full end in a rejection of the literal, bodily return of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-9). (Not everyone will necessarily do this, but it is this foundation that forms a basis for the rejection of the literal return of Christ, per 2 Peter 3:3-6. Basically, they reject the authority of God and accept the authority of men.)

And the Jews do need to be saved. And so do Muslims, Buddhists, the Hindus, the Scientologists, the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Atheists, the Agnostics, (etc.) and even Evangelicals and Catholics if they are relying on religious works such as church attendance, water baptism, "obeying" the Ten Commandments, Communion, etc. (Romans 3:20) and not trusting in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ alone.

Each son or daughter of Adam is a sinner who needs to repent before God and ask Him for forgiveness and make God--not him--the Lord of his life. Also his sins have a weight - they demand his own blood and a permanent separation from God. Jesus, fully man and fully God, Seed of the woman, descendant of Abraham and David, without sin, offered His own body and blood to be the one and only acceptable substitutionary sacrifice for sins. If we accept Jesus' blood on our behalf, God will pass over us and not treat as our sins deserve. He will forgive us, because of Jesus' obedience on the cross. Further, He will raise us up to life at the last day, while those who trust in other gods/gospels will rise to be judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

My pastor is a Jew who was told by his rabbi at age 16, "Hell is a Gentile problem." Feeling secure, he stopped going to the synogogue. He became very lawless, nearly destroying his life completely (he was so miserable, he considered suicide). When he was 22, he met the risen Lord Jesus Christ, and he's been walking with Him since that day. He is a Jewish believer in Jesus, who, like Paul, has dedicated his life to preaching the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles. He needed Jesus. I needed Jesus. His transforming power has changed our lives.

Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

God bless.

 

[Goatee]

The Roman Catholic Church didn't start until circa 300 AD.

6 days means 6 ordinary days.

Genesis 1:3-4
Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

God could not have been more clear in defining the day. Rejection of God's creation by water and the global flood is tied has its full end in a rejection of the literal, bodily return of Christ (2 Peter 3:3-9). (Not everyone will necessarily do this, but it is this foundation that forms a basis for the rejection of the literal return of Christ, per 2 Peter 3:3-6. Basically, they reject the authority of God and accept the authority of men.)

And the Jews do need to be saved. And so do Muslims, Buddhists, the Hindus, the Scientologists, the Mormons, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Atheists, the Agnostics, (etc.) and even Evangelicals and Catholics if they are relying on religious works such as church attendance, water baptism, "obeying" the Ten Commandments, Communion, etc. (Romans 3:20) and not trusting in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ alone.

Each son or daughter of Adam is a sinner who needs to repent before God and ask Him for forgiveness and make God--not him--the Lord of his life. Also his sins have a weight - they demand his own blood and a permanent separation from God. Jesus, fully man and fully God, Seed of the woman, descendant of Abraham and David, without sin, offered His own body and blood to be the one and only acceptable substitutionary sacrifice for sins. If we accept Jesus' blood on our behalf, God will pass over us and not treat as our sins deserve. He will forgive us, because of Jesus' obedience on the cross. Further, He will raise us up to life at the last day, while those who trust in other gods/gospels will rise to be judged and thrown into the Lake of Fire.

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

My pastor is a Jew who was told by his rabbi at age 16, "Hell is a Gentile problem." Feeling secure, he stopped going to the synogogue. He became very lawless, nearly destroying his life completely (he was so miserable, he considered suicide). When he was 22, he met the risen Lord Jesus Christ, and he's been walking with him since that day. He is a Jewish believer in Jesus, who, like Paul, has dedicated his life to preaching the gospel to both Jews and Gentiles. He needed Jesus. I needed Jesus. His transforming power has changed our lives.

God bless.

I am not going to argue with you my dear friend. I thank God for everyone who believes in Jesus. You have your views and i have my beliefs. I believe in the Catholic church (Which started in the upper room on the very day when Jesus breathed on the Apostles).

Maybe one day you will come to see how special the Church of Christ, the Catholic Church is!

God bless you buddy

 

[Erie79]

Not really.

You're entitled to your opinion as am I and everyone else on the forum.

 

[Ronald]

Nonsense.

Which part doesn't make sense to you, the historical and ever present Islamic Terrorism in many countries, the uprising of rapes in Sweden, NASA admitting a ninth planet is out there or the interpretation of the Biblical scripture: "the woman clothed with the sun and the moon at her feet and on her head a garland of twelve stars"?

 

[vinsight4u]

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