Is The Body of Christ the House of God?

[Mr. M]

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[Citizen of the Kingdom]

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[Mr. M]

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[Citizen of the Kingdom]

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[Mr. M]

Perhaps a Temple. House? I'm unsure.

Edit: A Temple has just believers but the House has many unbelievers too.

2 Samuel 5:8 Now David said on that day, “Whoever climbs up by way of the water shaft and defeats the Jebusites (the lame and the blind, who are hated by David’s soul), he shall be chief and captain.” Therefore they say, “The blind and the lame shall not come into the house.”

Matthew 21:
12 Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.

13 And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’ ”

14 Then the blind and the lame came to Him in the temple, and He healed them.

 

[readywriter]

Hi Chris. Since I mentioned 1 Peter 2:5 in support of the Body of Christ being the House[hold] of God, I'll jump in for a moment.

I experienced years ago this distinct separation of Peter's writings to the Jews in the Diaspora & saw that it led to several problems.

Some date 1 Peter to being written over a decade after James and some of Paul's writings. Silvanus, who Peter mentions in 1 Peter 5:12 was a traveling companion of Paul & Timothy per 1 & 2 Thessalonians 1:1, which were said to be written well before 1 Peter. We know that Peter was well acquainted with Paul & knew of his ministry to the Gentiles & that Peter was also sent to the Gentiles early on. Both Peter & Paul evangelized Jews & Gentiles.

Point being, 1 Peter was not written in a vacuum apart from a knowledge of the inclusion of the Gentiles in Christ's Ekklesia, Christ's Body. All Christians are the Body & the Ekklesia of Christ & the House of God. Both Paul & Peter use the House/Household terminology.

It had been well established for some time that there is one body, Spirit, hope, Lord, faith, baptism, God & Father of all (Ephesians 4:4). The Body/Ekklesia consists of both Jews & Gentiles.

Believing Jews are also in the Body of Christ - Christ's Ekklesia - in fact, they were the first members, were they not?

Sounds like disagreement. You're forgiven & He's always the final Arbiter. Thanks.

Hello @GDL,

When I posted my thanks to those who responded, in reply#9, I did not feel able to respond at that time, it was not necessarily because of disagreement.

I agree that the Body of Christ consists of both Jews and Gentiles, a joint body, which is united and equal in Christ Jesus. It is the One Body of Ephesians 4:4. This was not the subject of Old Testament prophecy, having been 'hid in God' since the world began (Ephesians 3:9).

Yet the fact that Gentiles would be blessed through Abraham was no mystery, having been the subject of Old Testament prophecy. The revelation of God, made known to Paul, and by him through the epistles of Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, written from prison at Rome, concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ, was not made known until salvation was sent to the Gentiles in Acts 28:28. For salvation was now not of the Jew as it had previously been (John 4:22). Jew and Gentile were therefore now equal and united, neither having priority or precedence in the purpose of God within this company, which has Christ as it's Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GDL]

Hello @GDL,

When I posted my thanks to those who responded, in reply#9, I did not feel able to respond at that time, it was not necessarily because of disagreement.

I agree that the Body of Christ consists of both Jews and Gentiles, a joint body, which is united and equal in Christ Jesus. It is the One Body of Ephesians 4:4. This was not the subject of Old Testament prophecy, having been 'hid in God' since the world began (Ephesians 3:9).

Yet the fact that Gentiles would be blessed through Abraham was no mystery, having been the subject of Old Testament prophecy. The revelation of God, made known to Paul, and by him through the epistles of Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, written from prison at Rome, concerning the Church which is the Body of Christ, was not made known until salvation was sent to the Gentiles in Acts 28:28. For salvation was now not of the Jew as it had previously been (John 4:22). Jew and Gentile were therefore now equal and united, neither having priority or precedence in the purpose of God within this company, which has Christ as it's Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thanks for the explanation, Chris.

I'll respond to your explanation below.

This is not the Church which is the Body of Christ. For that calling had yet to be revealed when Peter wrote his epistle.

It seems easiest to expand a bit on what I said earlier:

You seem to be saying the "mystery" was not known to Peter when he wrote his 2 letters that we have and therefore he could not have made his audience aware of it. And I will grant you that doing a quick search, Peter does not use the word "ekklesia" or speak of the "Body of Christ" (Christ's Ekklesia) in his 2 letters that we have.

Yet, we do know that Peter was aware of and had even been sent to evangelize Gentiles. We know that Peter knew of Paul's being sent to the nations. The Great Commission from Christ was to the nations. We also know Peter had some of Paul's letter's even though he thought they were difficult to understand (2 Peter 3:16).

From information I filed years ago, it looks to me like Peter wrote years after many of Paul's letters were written, and 1-4 years after Paul wrote Ephesians.

The moral of this story is that I don't think Peter was unaware of the mystery nor that he did not disclose it to the diaspora Jews, nor that they were unaware of the inclusion of the nations in Christ that had been taking place for quite some time.

Back to Ephesians: In Ephesians 3:4 Paul says the mystery is the mystery of Christ and says he had already mentioned it. Paul had spoken of it in the beginning of Ephesians 1 and in a broader scope than Ephesians 3. He also speaks of mystery in several of his other letters.

Looking somewhat closely at the wording in Ephesians 3 and knowing Abraham's blessing was a promise of the inclusion of the nations and that there were others included before there was a nation of Hebrews, I don't see that Gentile inclusion is the mystery. I see the mystery being how God would accomplish the inclusion in Christ Jesus - Abraham's Seed - "through the Good News [of Christ]" as Ephesians 3:6 says.

From there, Paul explains that his ministry was to proclaim to the nations the unsearchable riches of [the Jewish] Christ. IOW, this indeed was news to Jews too, but Peter, et al. and James in Jerusalem had known of it for some time. To the nations however, this was quite some mystery, that the God of the Jews was gathering together everything and everyone in His Hebrew born & resurrected eternal Christ/King to whom He had given all authority over Heaven & earth.

Bottom line, although there is some merit to what you said about the Ekklesia / Body of Christ, based simply from reading Peter's letters, I have a hard time seeing that Gentile inclusion in one great Community & Body was not known by Peter's audience, especially since Jesus had implemented a traveling proclamation & teaching of His commands to the nations (wherein the diaspora Jews were residing) shortly after His resurrection.

Maybe someone else could make this tighter for us.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Hello @GDL, @readywriter, @Jesus is YHWH,
@Jesus is my Superhero, @Citizen of the Kingdom
Thanks to all for your responses to the question posed in the title of the thread. If you would take a moment to read the OP post #1 and consider the implications of those words, I will ask a follow-up question.
Can any security be taken in the knowledge that the church is the House of God?

Yes from those in the household of faith

 

[GDL]

Hello @GDL, @readywriter, @Jesus is YHWH,
@Jesus is my Superhero, @Citizen of the Kingdom
Thanks to all for your responses to the question posed in the title of the thread. If you would take a moment to read the OP post #1 and consider the implications of those words, I will ask a follow-up question.
Can any security be taken in the knowledge that the church is the House of God?

Sure you want to take up "security"? We might end up drawing in the Soteriology debaters.

To be a part of God's House, God's Household, with the information we have, means we are part of His family, we're His Children together with our first-born brother and Lord, Yeshua, the Christ/King with all authority over Heaven & earth. So, yes, there is great security in this, together with great honor & glory to be realized at some point. Our Father can take any other fathers & so can our big Brother.

I'll bow out on any discussion on eternal security so as not to start an uproar.

 

[Mr. M]

Sure you want to take up "security"? We might end up drawing in the Soteriology debaters.

To be a part of God's House, God's Household, with the information we have, means we are part of His family, we're His Children together with our first-born brother and Lord, Yeshua, the Christ/King with all authority over Heaven & earth. So, yes, there is great security in this, together with great honor & glory to be realized at some point. Our Father can take any other fathers & so can our big Brother.

I'll bow out on any discussion on eternal security so as not to start an uproar.

I feel that we are in agreement that we know Christ in the intimacy of our fellowship with the saints, and will therefore not be soon troubled if there is a downfall of the edifice of an institutional church. That is what I see in the false security the citizens of Jerusalem had in thinking that they would be protected because of "the temple of the Lord", which He has now destroyed twice. Hopefully that message is clear. The Comfort is with the people of God, not the edifices of man.
Isaiah 40:
1 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.

2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins.

3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

 

[Mr. M]

I have a hard time seeing that Gentile inclusion in one great Community & Body was not known by Peter's audience, especially since Jesus had implemented a traveling proclamation & teaching of His commands to the nations (wherein the diaspora Jews were residing) shortly after His resurrection.

Discussion surrounding the dating of epistles seems to be a non starter.
This is made clear in Acts, particularly surrounding the person of Barnabas, who is first introduced as being among the saints in Judea in Acts 4.
Peter was challenged in Jerusalem because he had gone into the household of Cornelius and preached the Gospel in Acts 10.
Acts 11:
1 Now the apostles and brethren who were in Judea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.
2 And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those of the circumcision contended with him,
3 saying, “You went in to uncircumcised men and ate with them!”

17 If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could withstand God?”
18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted the Gentiles repentance to life.”

The city of Antioch in Syria was a center of Hellenized Judaism where the Gospel was received by Jew and Gentile.

19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only.
20 But some of them were men from Cyprus and Cyrene, who, when they had come to Antioch, spoke to the Hellenists, preaching the Lord Jesus.
21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number believed and turned to the Lord.
22 Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch.
23 When he came and had seen the grace of God, he was glad, and encouraged them all that with purpose of heart they should continue with the Lord.
24 For he was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and of faith. And a great many people were added to the Lord.
25 Then Barnabas departed for Tarsus to seek Saul.
26 And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

Paul's first missionary journey into Asia Minor begins in Acts 13, when the Holy Spirit separates Him and Barnabas and they are sent forth.
Acts 13:
2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.

Therefore we can conclude that Peter was fully aware of what the Lord was doing among the Nations before Paul began his first mission with Barnabas.

 

[GDL]

Therefore we can conclude that Peter was fully aware of what the Lord was doing among the Nations before Paul began his first mission with Barnabas.

Thanks for the input. Agreed. The inclusion of the nations with the Jews in God's Community was not new information when Ephesians was written.

 

[GDL]

if there is a downfall of the edifice of an institutional church

I'm not so sure this downfall is not well in process to some unknown-by-me extent. My security is from His Word & by His Spirit.

 

[Mr. M]

Thanks for the input. Agreed. The inclusion of the nations with the Jews in God's Community was not new information when Ephesians was written.

Paul's use of the word mystery should not be given a "mysterious" interpretation. He simply meant what has been revealed by the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and Peter was well aware.

 

[Mr. M]

I'm not so sure this downfall is not well in process to some unknown-by-me extent. My security is from His Word & by His Spirit.

And this "mystery" we should live in the awareness of:
"Christ in me, the hope of Glory".

 

[GDL]

And this "mystery" we should live in the awareness of:
"Christ in me, the hope of Glory".

Since this is part of the mystery, I'm agreed.

 

[Mr. M]

Remember this for future purposes. This Word Revealed by Abba Elohim is almost never seen, heard nor recognized. (compared to a multitude of others in a multitude of assemblies) ...... It is very importantly Truth.

The Holy Spirit is our Lord, but He answers to the Son.
John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

 

[Mr. M]

In the verse referred to, that is not what is stated nor what is meant.

You do not think John 16:13-15 pertains to having the veil removed?

8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

John 16:13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;
for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak;
and He will tell you things to come.

 

[Guojing]

Yet, we do know that Peter was aware of and had even been sent to evangelize Gentiles. We know that Peter knew of Paul's being sent to the nations. The Great Commission from Christ was to the nations. We also know Peter had some of Paul's letter's even though he thought they were difficult to understand (2 Peter 3:16).

The order of salvation, under the prophetic timetable, was always Israel to be saved first, before the gentiles are to be reached.

This order was found in Isaiah 60:1-3, Zechariah 8:23, Luke's version of the Great Commission, and many other places.

That is why Peter, when he explained why he went to Cornelius house when the little flock questioned him in Acts 11, he did not make reference to the Matthew version of the GC, but rather the vision he received.