Is Shame a virtue?

[MyChainsAreGone]

"Have you no shame?!?"​

Once upon a time, such a question might have been asked of a young man or a young woman if they dared to wear clothing that was judged to be too "revealing" or "sensual."

The question, of course, is loaded with a very significant assumption... that a young person SHOULD have some shame about their bodies... or least as it relates to allowing some parts of their bodies to be seen by others.

It has been asserted by some here at CF that the exposure of our bodies in the wrong context should be considered shameful, and therefore avoided.

For the purpose of this post and the responses that I hope it engenders, let's allow that assertion to be a given.

I want to ask people who believe that to be true to expand on the understanding and provide more tangible details about what that means.

So here are some specific questions that I'd like to ask on the topic:

1. Is the shame attached to specific body parts? If so, which parts? Is it different for men and women?
2. Do you believe that God endorses or is pleased with that shame?
3. Do humans have body parts that are displeasing to God?
4. What does God think about our bodies?
5. What attitude does God want US to have about our bodies?

GROUND RULES FOR THIS TOPIC...

• I do not intend to respond to anyone who answers to rebuff or refute. Your responses will stand on their own.
  • Caveat... I may offer follow-up questions to seek more clarity in stated perspectives.
• Others may respond if they want.
• You don't have to answer all of the questions. Pick and choose any or all, or skip the questions and just articulate your own perspective on the topic of body shame.
• Make only statements that clearly articulate what YOU believe... Do not assert what you think OTHERS believe in order to shoot it down.
• Do not disparage me for raising the topic or asking genuine questions... if anyone does so, it will be assumed that they don't actually have any answers to my questions.
• If you believe the questions to be slanted, misguided, or dishonest, you may explain why you think so and articulate how you believe the questions should be asked and/or ask questions of your own for others to answer instead (I will not be answering them, so don't address them to me)
• Do not demean ANYONE with your comments, questions, or responses.

If you're not agreeable to these "ground rules," please do not post anything.

The purpose of this post is to allow you to articulate your own perspective about the topic. State it as clearly as possible, and defend it as fully as you think it needs.

Go.

 

[HTacianas]

"Have you no shame?!?"​

Once upon a time, such a question might have been asked of a young man or a young woman if they dared to wear clothing that was judged to be to "revealing" or "sensual."

The question, of course, is loaded with a very significant assumption... that a young person SHOULD have some shame about their bodies... or least as it relates to allowing some parts of their bodies to be seen by others.

It has been asserted by some here at CF that the exposure of our bodies in the wrong context should be considered shameful, and therefore avoided.

For the purpose of is post and the responses that I hope it engenders, let's allow that assertion to be a given.

I want to ask people who believe that to be true to expand on the understanding and provide more tangible details about what that means.

So here are some specific questions that I'd like to ask on the topic:

1. Is the shame attached to specific body parts? If so, which parts? Is it different for men and women?
2. Do you believe that God endorses or is pleased with that shame?
3. Do humans have body parts that are displeasing to God?
4. What does God think about our bodies?
5. What attitude does God want US to have about our bodies?

GROUND RULES FOR THIS TOPIC...

• I do not intend to respond to anyone who answers. Your responses will stand on their own.
• Others may respond if they want.
• You don't have to answer all of the questions. Pick and choose any or all, or skip the questions and just articulate your own perspective on the topic of body shame.
• Make only statements that clearly articulate what YOU believe... Do not assert what you think OTHERS believe in order to shoot it down.
• Do not disparage me for raising the topic or asking genuine questions... if anyone does so, it will be assumed that they don't actually have any answers to my questions.
• If you believe the questions to be slanted, misguided, or dishonest, you may explain why you think so and articulate how you believe the questions should be asked and/or ask questions of your own for others to answer instead (I will not be answering them, so don't address them to me)
• Do not demean ANYONE with your comments, questions, or responses.

If you're not agreeable to these "ground rules," please do not post anything.

The purpose of this post is to allow you to articulate your own perspective about the topic. State it as clearly as possible, and defend it as fully as you think it needs.

Go.

Rather than shame, a better word is modesty. Even though the bible does use the term shame as analogous to the guilt of sin, see Jude 1:13, Rev 3:18, 16:15. And yes, there are parts of the body that should be concealed based on modesty. Traditionally both men and women have covered themselves in public from neck to ankle out of modesty. Exposing the body can induce lust in others. The Didascalia Apostolorum contains commandments for men and women regarding manner of dress, and they are pretty much the same for both sexes. Though it has historically been women who are more likely to dress immodestly in order to attract attention to themselves.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

Rather than shame, a better word is modesty. Even though the bible does use the term shame as analogous to the guilt of sin, see Jude 1:13, Rev 3:18, 16:15. And yes, there are parts of the body that should be concealed based on modesty. Traditionally both men and women have covered themselves in public from neck to ankle out of modesty. Exposing the body can induce lust in others. The Didascalia Apostolorum contains commandments for men and women regarding manner of dress, and they are pretty much the same for both sexes. Though it has historically been women who are more likely to dress immodestly in order to attract attention to themselves.

Thanks for your comments.

Just to clarify, I really am asking about shame, not modesty.

It has more to do with our perception and/or God's perception of the body or body parts rather than what we do or how we act as a result of that perception.

Modesty, it seems to me, is part of the response, not the source perception.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

Rather than shame, a better word is modesty. Even though the bible does use the term shame as analogous to the guilt of sin, see Jude 1:13, Rev 3:18, 16:15. And yes, there are parts of the body that should be concealed based on modesty. Traditionally both men and women have covered themselves in public from neck to ankle out of modesty. Exposing the body can induce lust in others. The Didascalia Apostolorum contains commandments for men and women regarding manner of dress, and they are pretty much the same for both sexes. Though it has historically been women who are more likely to dress immodestly in order to attract attention to themselves.

Follow-up question based on your statement...

What perception are we supposed to have about certain body parts that make "modesty" a requirement?

 

[HTacianas]

Follow-up question based on your statement...

What perception are we supposed to have about certain body parts that make "modesty" a requirement?

Generally speaking, it is any body part that might cause someone else to lust. That can mean just about anything, but generally it is the torso, legs, and can include the arms of a man. That's the source of the saying, "roll up our sleeves". A man was expected to keep his arms covered but was allowed to roll them up while working. The expression has come to mean "get to work".

 

[2PhiloVoid]

"Have you no shame?!?"​

Once upon a time, such a question might have been asked of a young man or a young woman if they dared to wear clothing that was judged to be too "revealing" or "sensual."

The question, of course, is loaded with a very significant assumption... that a young person SHOULD have some shame about their bodies... or least as it relates to allowing some parts of their bodies to be seen by others.

It has been asserted by some here at CF that the exposure of our bodies in the wrong context should be considered shameful, and therefore avoided.

For the purpose of this post and the responses that I hope it engenders, let's allow that assertion to be a given.

I want to ask people who believe that to be true to expand on the understanding and provide more tangible details about what that means.

So here are some specific questions that I'd like to ask on the topic:

1. Is the shame attached to specific body parts? If so, which parts? Is it different for men and women?
2. Do you believe that God endorses or is pleased with that shame?
3. Do humans have body parts that are displeasing to God?
4. What does God think about our bodies?
5. What attitude does God want US to have about our bodies?

GROUND RULES FOR THIS TOPIC...

• I do not intend to respond to anyone who answers. Your responses will stand on their own.
• Others may respond if they want.
• You don't have to answer all of the questions. Pick and choose any or all, or skip the questions and just articulate your own perspective on the topic of body shame.
• Make only statements that clearly articulate what YOU believe... Do not assert what you think OTHERS believe in order to shoot it down.
• Do not disparage me for raising the topic or asking genuine questions... if anyone does so, it will be assumed that they don't actually have any answers to my questions.
• If you believe the questions to be slanted, misguided, or dishonest, you may explain why you think so and articulate how you believe the questions should be asked and/or ask questions of your own for others to answer instead (I will not be answering them, so don't address them to me)
• Do not demean ANYONE with your comments, questions, or responses.

If you're not agreeable to these "ground rules," please do not post anything.

The purpose of this post is to allow you to articulate your own perspective about the topic. State it as clearly as possible, and defend it as fully as you think it needs.

Go.

My view on the human body? There's nothing shameful about it. I've never really thought that it is shameful. What more is there to say?

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

My view on the human body? There's nothing shameful about it. I've never really thought that it is shameful. What more is there to say?

I appreciate that statement.

Follow-up questions...

Since the human body is not shameful, are modesty rules still required?

And if so, what perception/reality about the body necessitates such rules?

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

Generally speaking, it is any body part that might cause someone else to lust. That can mean just about anything, but generally it is the torso, legs, and can include the arms of a man. That's the source of the saying, "roll up our sleeves". A man was expected to keep his arms covered but was allowed to roll them up while working. The expression has come to mean "get to work".

Thank you.

Another follow-up question...

Do you believe that is God's intent that we perceive of certain body parts as being prone to cause someone to lust?

 

[HTacianas]

Thank you.

Another follow-up question...

Do you believe that is God's intent that we perceive of certain body parts as being prone to cause someone to lust?

Actually I believe that the human form itself is created by God to elicit lust. Without lust we would never procreate. But lust is a lot like hunger. Hunger is natural but we should not let it lead to gluttony.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I appreciate that statement.

Follow-up questions...

Since the human body is not shameful, are modesty rules still required?

Yes, some modesty rules are still required to provide ethical lines by which humanity must work within to keep social order that promotes our daily lived attempts to "be moral."

I mean, let's think about this:

If we simply dismiss all modesty and assert some proposition such as, "Humans should be free by right to walk nude in public everywhere of everyday of their lives--to work, to school, to the grocery store, to restaurants, to church or to any other civic gathering we can think of--without hindrance or communal shaming," then we should ask what such a proposition, if lived out, would actually do for us on a positive social and psychological level?​

​

I'm kind of thinking that the full implimentation of such a proposition would be, if not disasterous, more or less a road to more dysfunction and emotional disorder than we already have.​

​

And if so, what perception/reality about the body necessitates such rules?

The reality that takes into account neuro-science, human psychology and human biology where human sexual interaction is an ever present aspect of the social life of the human species.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

Yes, some modesty rules are still required to provide ethical lines by which humanity must work within to keep social order that promotes our daily lived attempts to "be moral."

I mean, let's think about this:

If we simply dismiss all modesty and assert some proposition such as, "Humans should be free by right to walk nude in public everywhere of everyday of their lives--to work, to school, to the grocery store, to restaurants, to church or to any other civic gathering we can think of--without hindrance or communal shaming," then we should ask what such a proposition, if lived out, would actually do for us on a positive social and psychological level?​

​

I'm kind of thinking that the full implimentation of such a proposition would be, if not disasterous, more or less a road to more dysfunction and emotional disorder than we already have.​

​

The reality that takes into account neuro-science, human psychology and human biology where human sexual interaction is an ever present aspect of the social life of the human species.

Thanks for the on-point answer.

 

[zippy2006]

Is shame a virtue?

From time immemorial it has been recognized that shame is not a virtue, but that it is a good quality in those who do evil deeds.

1. Is the shame attached to specific body parts? If so, which parts? Is it different for men and women?
2. Do you believe that God endorses or is pleased with that shame?
3. Do humans have body parts that are displeasing to God?
4. What does God think about our bodies?
5. What attitude does God want US to have about our bodies?

1. Shame properly attaches to the public display of body parts that are either sexual or base (base having to do with urination and defecation, which expel that which is odious to human beings). Those who bear their sexual or base parts publicly are shameless, and this is indeed a bad thing.
2. Yes, of course. God is the one who provided coverings for nakedness (Genesis 3:21).
3. God is not displeased with his handiwork.
4. -
5. He wants us to reserve certain bodily parts for our spouse, and to attend to certain business in private.

I do not intend to respond to anyone who answers to rebuff or refute.

You clearly have an opinion on the matter. You are making an argument. You should listen to those who respond to your argument.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

You clearly have an opinion on the matter. You are making an argument. You should listen to those who respond to your argument.

Thanks for your comments!

Yes, I do have an opinion on the matter, but it is not the purpose of this thread to "make an argument." I haven't yet decided if I will even bother to answer my own questions. I'm considering it, but not actively planning on it.

Rather, it is my purpose to allow different people to express their perspectives... and allow their statements to stand or fall on their own merits.

I'm certainly listening to those who respond, such as yourself, but that does not mean that I am prepared to accept every assertion they make. Truth is, even they do not all agree with one another.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

1. Shame properly attaches to the public display of body parts that are either sexual or base (base having to do with urination and defecation, which expel that which is odious to human beings). Those who bear their sexual or base parts publicly are shameless, and this is indeed a bad thing.
2. Yes, of course. God is the one who provided coverings for nakedness (Genesis 3:21).
3. God is not displeased with his handiwork.

Could you address further the potential conflict between answers 1&2 and answer 3?

Specifically, since God's handiwork includes the body parts you spoke of in answer 1, how are they also "base" or shameful?

Thanks again for your time and insight.

 

[Aussie Pete]

"Have you no shame?!?"​

Once upon a time, such a question might have been asked of a young man or a young woman if they dared to wear clothing that was judged to be too "revealing" or "sensual."

The question, of course, is loaded with a very significant assumption... that a young person SHOULD have some shame about their bodies... or least as it relates to allowing some parts of their bodies to be seen by others.

It has been asserted by some here at CF that the exposure of our bodies in the wrong context should be considered shameful, and therefore avoided.

For the purpose of this post and the responses that I hope it engenders, let's allow that assertion to be a given.

I want to ask people who believe that to be true to expand on the understanding and provide more tangible details about what that means.

So here are some specific questions that I'd like to ask on the topic:

1. Is the shame attached to specific body parts? If so, which parts? Is it different for men and women?
2. Do you believe that God endorses or is pleased with that shame?
3. Do humans have body parts that are displeasing to God?
4. What does God think about our bodies?
5. What attitude does God want US to have about our bodies?

GROUND RULES FOR THIS TOPIC...

• I do not intend to respond to anyone who answers to rebuff or refute. Your responses will stand on their own.
  • Caveat... I may offer follow-up questions to seek more clarity in stated perspectives.
• Others may respond if they want.
• You don't have to answer all of the questions. Pick and choose any or all, or skip the questions and just articulate your own perspective on the topic of body shame.
• Make only statements that clearly articulate what YOU believe... Do not assert what you think OTHERS believe in order to shoot it down.
• Do not disparage me for raising the topic or asking genuine questions... if anyone does so, it will be assumed that they don't actually have any answers to my questions.
• If you believe the questions to be slanted, misguided, or dishonest, you may explain why you think so and articulate how you believe the questions should be asked and/or ask questions of your own for others to answer instead (I will not be answering them, so don't address them to me)
• Do not demean ANYONE with your comments, questions, or responses.

If you're not agreeable to these "ground rules," please do not post anything.

The purpose of this post is to allow you to articulate your own perspective about the topic. State it as clearly as possible, and defend it as fully as you think it needs.

Go.

There is a lot said about body shaming these days. It's unfortunate. Body shaming is not helpful, but neither is denying that gross obesity is a health risk.

As far as modesty is concerned, that is a different issue. Like it or not, men are tempted by what they see. Adam and Eve became self conscious after they sinned in Eden. They were ashamed, a consequence of sin. Even secular law requires men and women to cover genitals at least.

I don't subscribe to the Muslim idea of total body covering, but I would like to go out and about without having to avert my eyes every few minutes. There again, I was raised in a different generation where "sexy" was not considered the most important feature a woman could have. And no, I was not raised a Christian.

 

[com7fy8]

I would say we should not be ashamed of any part of our bodies. Because God made them.

But of course we may have abused our bodies so they are damaged somehow, and possibly we should be ashamed of how our bodies look due to how we have hurt ourselves, but don't stay in the shame: maybe admit it is a shame what we have done, but be encouraged now to trust and obey God to have us do what is good care of our bodies.

And do not have shame about sexual parts and openings for waste. Don't be one way or the other.

"I will not be brought under the power of any," our Apostle Paul says, in 1 Corinthians 6:12. Do not be under the power of shame or lust or of pride of showing things off > our attention needs to be to God, not under the power of outward stuff.

This is a main point: not to be trying to control how others see us, but make sure how we ourselves do not lust and we humble what we have.

One can dress in a bathing suit and there is no problem. The person is not acting for attention and is not staring. And everyone can understand.

And there are Christian ladies who do not try to cover up > because it is so hot with no air conditioning, and/or they are not ashamed about how God has created them, but they are not trying to get attention. And they are not afraid of self-righteous people who gauk at them and criticize them; they quietly mind their own business.

After all . . . it is possible to lust at a person's beautiful or handsome smiling face. And I could feed lust by looking at someone's ankle or neck or hair.

And an immoral woman can cover up more than anybody. But she has a slit she can open toward some guy, or she can swish her dress so her shape shows, and from some angle light might shine through her covering.

But a modest woman showing more can minister how she is loving you and not trying to seduce you. And she can feed you God's own love, and that impresses you and guides your attention.

And I have ones who I can give in to lust about, however; but there are love women who quietly affect me in love gentle and quiet and pure and kind. Their effect can easily win over lust.

So, how you are can affect what you minister to others to make them the same way. Jesus spreads how He is, and Jesus in us spreads.

But there are women who can affect me not to be and love like Jesus . . . no matter how they behave. So, I need to stay with God so I am loving them, praying to spread God's grace to them while He changes my own character so I stay His way in love.

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

I would say we should not be ashamed of any part of our bodies. Because God made them.

But of course we may have abused our bodies so they are damaged somehow, and possibly we should be ashamed of how our bodies look due to how we have hurt ourselves, but don't stay in the shame: maybe admit it is a shame what we have done, but be encouraged now to trust and obey God to have us do what is good care of our bodies.

And do not have shame about sexual parts and openings for waste. Don't be one way or the other.

"I will not be brought under the power of any," our Apostle Paul says, in 1 Corinthians 6:12. Do not be under the power of shame or lust or of pride of showing things off > our attention needs to be to God, not under the power of outward stuff.

This is a main point: not to be trying to control how others see us, but make sure how we ourselves do not lust and we humble what we have.

One can dress in a bathing suit and there is no problem. The person is not acting for attention and is not staring. And everyone can understand.

And there are Christian ladies who do not try to cover up > because it is so hot with no air conditioning, and/or they are not ashamed about how God has created them, but they are not trying to get attention. And they are not afraid of self-righteous people who gauk at them and criticize them; they quietly mind their own business.

After all . . . it is possible to lust at a person's beautiful or handsome smiling face. And I could feed lust by looking at someone's ankle or neck or hair.

And an immoral woman can cover up more than anybody. But she has a slit she can open toward some guy, or she can swish her dress so her shape shows, and from some angle light might shine through her covering.

But a modest woman showing more can minister how she is loving you and not trying to seduce you. And she can feed you God's own love, and that impresses you and guides your attention.

And I have ones who I can give in to lust about, however; but there are love women who quietly affect me in love gentle and quiet and pure and kind. Their effect can easily win over lust.

So, how you are can affect what you minister to others to make them the same way. Jesus spreads how He is, and Jesus in us spreads.

But there are women who can affect me not to be and love like Jesus . . . no matter how they behave. So, I need to stay with God so I am loving them, praying to spread God's grace to them while He changes my own character so I stay His way in love.

Thanks for your comments!

 

[MyChainsAreGone]

There is a lot said about body shaming these days. It's unfortunate. Body shaming is not helpful, but neither is denying that gross obesity is a health risk.

As far as modesty is concerned, that is a different issue. Like it or not, men are tempted by what they see. Adam and Eve became self conscious after they sinned in Eden. They were ashamed, a consequence of sin. Even secular law requires men and women to cover genitals at least.

I don't subscribe to the Muslim idea of total body covering, but I would like to go out and about without having to avert my eyes every few minutes. There again, I was raised in a different generation where "sexy" was not considered the most important feature a woman could have. And no, I was not raised a Christian.

Thanks for your comments.

Can I ask you to follow up?

My post and my questions were really not about modesty. There might be a relationship, but what I'm looking for is really the heart attitude and mental posture that we have that drives us to create and enforce modesty rules. So along those lines, here are some follow-up questions.

You say men are "tempted by what they see..." do you believe that God made them that way? Related to that, do you believe God wants them to be that way?

You said you don't want to have to "avert your eyes," what is it that you are thinking about women or their bodies that leads you to conclude that you must avert your eyes? In order to determine when you need to avert your eyes, wouldn't you have to make a sexual evaluation of every woman you see? Do you think that's what God intends for men to do?

I'm not trying to put you on the spot or attack you. I'm just trying to read below the surface of what you said to sense what you think is going on in our minds and what you think God wants to be there.

Thanks for listening. I hope you'll reply.

 

[zippy2006]

Could you address further the potential conflict between answers 1&2 and answer 3?

Specifically, since God's handiwork includes the body parts you spoke of in answer 1, how are they also "base" or shameful?

I see no potential conflict. If God provided them with clothing, shouldn't they wear it?

 

[fhansen]

"Have you no shame?!?"​

Once upon a time, such a question might have been asked of a young man or a young woman if they dared to wear clothing that was judged to be too "revealing" or "sensual."

The question, of course, is loaded with a very significant assumption... that a young person SHOULD have some shame about their bodies... or least as it relates to allowing some parts of their bodies to be seen by others.

It has been asserted by some here at CF that the exposure of our bodies in the wrong context should be considered shameful, and therefore avoided.

For the purpose of this post and the responses that I hope it engenders, let's allow that assertion to be a given.

I want to ask people who believe that to be true to expand on the understanding and provide more tangible details about what that means.

So here are some specific questions that I'd like to ask on the topic:

1. Is the shame attached to specific body parts? If so, which parts? Is it different for men and women?
2. Do you believe that God endorses or is pleased with that shame?
3. Do humans have body parts that are displeasing to God?
4. What does God think about our bodies?
5. What attitude does God want US to have about our bodies?

GROUND RULES FOR THIS TOPIC...

• I do not intend to respond to anyone who answers to rebuff or refute. Your responses will stand on their own.
  • Caveat... I may offer follow-up questions to seek more clarity in stated perspectives.
• Others may respond if they want.
• You don't have to answer all of the questions. Pick and choose any or all, or skip the questions and just articulate your own perspective on the topic of body shame.
• Make only statements that clearly articulate what YOU believe... Do not assert what you think OTHERS believe in order to shoot it down.
• Do not disparage me for raising the topic or asking genuine questions... if anyone does so, it will be assumed that they don't actually have any answers to my questions.
• If you believe the questions to be slanted, misguided, or dishonest, you may explain why you think so and articulate how you believe the questions should be asked and/or ask questions of your own for others to answer instead (I will not be answering them, so don't address them to me)
• Do not demean ANYONE with your comments, questions, or responses.

If you're not agreeable to these "ground rules," please do not post anything.

The purpose of this post is to allow you to articulate your own perspective about the topic. State it as clearly as possible, and defend it as fully as you think it needs.

Go.

Nothing about humans as created is displeasing to God; He created us after all. The problem is with us, due to our fallen state. In Eden, Adam and Eve were naked and they had no shame of their bodies. In their created innocence they didn't even know they were naked. There was probably no word for naked as that was simply the way things were. Only after disobeying God, in seeking to be their own gods, did they find offence in their "creatureliness", as it’s been called, viewing some aspects of it as inferior. They were now ashamed of themselves and hid because of it. This shame is paralleled in the spiritual world as well. We hide from the truth of who we are, often not satisfied when comparing ourselves to others, for example-so we cover up, unable to be completely transparent. But this is only "natural" in a fallen world, where everyone possesses that same basic shame of being human, whether they know it or admit to it or not.

Perfect harmony and self-control were lost at the Fall; man now existed in a state of unease, turmoil, uncertain of the correctness of his behavior, of whether he should do this rather than that. "But why not do this rather than that?" What's wrong with doing this? Isn't it smarter to do this? Did He really say not to do this? Any act could now be imagined and considered because by becoming his own authority instead of remaining in union with and heeding God, man's morality had become relative, relative to his own opinion in the moment. He was "free" from God, autonomous. We're here to learn what Adam and Eve didn't yet get: "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

God, with His plans already in hand, accommodated their new condition, making coverings for them, knowing that their innocence was lost, that they could no longer be comfortable in their own skins in this age, in their brave new world now distanced or alienated from Him. It's historically been taught that, with the Fall, man had in some manner become divided from God, from the rest of creation, from his fellow man, and from and within himself.

Between sexes, lust and domination and conflict would accompany this new disharmony, this lack of control, this “concupiscence", aka "disordered desire". Our natural appetites for many things would become distorted, abused; pride, lust for material things/wealth, and lust for pleasure (1 John 2:16) would all make their appeals to us in our endless search for a happiness or fulfillment that we can never quite satisfy.