Is it really that bad?

[Tallguy88]

Hey guys!

New Lutheran here (see the thread in main forum for more info on that), I've visited an LCMS church a few times and been rather pleased with the preaching and people there. I'm planning to visit an ELCA church this Sunday and had a few questions.

Listening to some of the LCMSers on here and reading their pamphlets at church, I get the impression that the ELCA is quite liberal. Is that a fair characteristic?

Let me tell you some of the things I believe and you can tell me how well it jives with the ELCA.

I am pro-life, and pro-traditional marriage. I'm more ecumenical than the Confessional Lutherans would like. I don't think the Pope is the anti-christ. I believe that the bible is the inspired Word of God, but not that every single word is to be taken 100% literally (e.g. Genesis). I tend to be against female ordination. I'm not sure how I feel about the open/closed communion debate, but I can see both sides of the issue.

Having said all of that, how well do you think I would fit into an ELCA church?

 

[Melanchthon]

If you believe the bible is the "inspired" and "authoritative" word of God and not intended to be read as the "inerrant" and "infallible"word of God, you soul be able to fit into the ELCA. The ELCA Lutheran Church traces its roots to the Scandinavian region of Europe, where with Philipp Melanchthon's influence Lutheranism really took root and whole countries Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and Finland converted. Accordingly in those nations Lutherans assumed and took over the episcopal form of church government, a bishop overseeing congregational pastors. On the other hand, both the roots for both the Missouri and Wisconsin Synods are found in Germany, which for three centuries after Martin Luther continued to be a hodge podge of little postage stamp states, not really united into a country shortly before World War I. Consequently in Germany, even today one town will be Catholic, while the neighboring town three miles east will be Lutheran. Thus, German Lutherans, never united themselves under bishops and brought over to the United States the idea of local control of each church so use a congregational form of government. In fact, the Wisconsin Synod, not only prohibits women from being ordained, they are not even allowed to vote on mundane matters such as shall we spend money and fix the leaky church roof!

Honestly, you have to look long and hard to find a "liberal" ELCA church. In most, more people with gray hair, beyond child bearing age, who are counting up the years to their fortieth (40th) and fiftieth (50th) wedding anniversaries, will be found filling the pews, than teenagers. With such demographics, I think you can guess that topics, such as abortion and "traditional marriage" makes noise an excitement for the evening television news, but are not really issues aging parishioners in local churches lie awake at night worrying about.

As to female ordination . . . a frequently overlooked fact is that today it generally costs a man or woman somewhere between $50,000.00 and $100,000.00 in order to graduate from seminary. On the other hand, when collection plates get passed around in church on Sunday morning, many people still feel that $20.00, which can be spent in a few minutes at the grocery store, represents a lifetime of savings! When you keep these economic realities in mind, the middle-aged woman who could afford to go back to seminary and accept a "part-time" (three day a week) job as pastor for small rural country congregation because her husband is well-paid doctor at local hospital, suddenly doesn't look too bad. By the way it is unfair to pass judgment on female pastors until you have listened to some sermons from a few of them. Many of them are more gifted speakers than their male counterparts. I look forward to those weeks when the elderly celibate "old-maid" chaplain at nearby nursing home subs for pastor when he takes a vacation.

Finally, regarding "Open Communion" . . . you will have to go people at a Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) questions about this practice. Contrary to propaganda from the LCMS and WELS, the ELCA does not celebrate open communion. The sacrament is available to those who believe that Christ is truly present in, with, and under the bread and wine. We only have intercommunion with other Christians, who have a similar understanding of baptism and our covenant relationship with God as we do (i.e., the Episcopal, Presbyterian, Reformed, and Methodist). We have no official relationship with aforementioned Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), or the Assembly of God, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc. People from other backgrounds should have a discussion with the pastor before communing in an ELCA church. We always have visitors who pass on communion, presumably because they do not believe the bread and wine to be Christ's true body and blood. By the way the agreement between the Lutheran ELCA and Episcopal ECUSA had been the most fruitful Lutheran pastors have been accepted as priests for Episcopal parishes without a clergyman/woman and vice versa. This has been because our worship services are structured the same and we shad a close and common understanding of Holy Communion.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

Hey guys!

New Lutheran here (see the thread in main forum for more info on that), I've visited an LCMS church a few times and been rather pleased with the preaching and people there. I'm planning to visit an ELCA church this Sunday and had a few questions.

Listening to some of the LCMSers on here and reading their pamphlets at church, I get the impression that the ELCA is quite liberal. Is that a fair characteristic?

Let me tell you some of the things I believe and you can tell me how well it jives with the ELCA.

I am pro-life, and pro-traditional marriage. I'm more ecumenical than the Confessional Lutherans would like. I don't think the Pope is the anti-christ. I believe that the bible is the inspired Word of God, but not that every single word is to be taken 100% literally (e.g. Genesis). I tend to be against female ordination. I'm not sure how I feel about the open/closed communion debate, but I can see both sides of the issue.

Having said all of that, how well do you think I would fit into an ELCA church?

Well, the main Lutheran forum here on CF is quite conservative. Sometimes "very liberal" just means "more liberal than me". There's a lot of room to be more liberal than that without being heretical or apostate.

And I think how well you would fit in would depend on the pastor and the congregation. Some are pretty liberal, others more conservative... though it is true that, on the average, ELCA will be more liberal than LCMS... but that can be a good thing.

(Don't let my Anglican icon fool you. I am both TEC and ELCA. My church has -- unusually -- both affiliations.)

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Hey guys!

New Lutheran here (see the thread in main forum for more info on that), I've visited an LCMS church a few times and been rather pleased with the preaching and people there. I'm planning to visit an ELCA church this Sunday and had a few questions.

Listening to some of the LCMSers on here and reading their pamphlets at church, I get the impression that the ELCA is quite liberal. Is that a fair characteristic?

Let me tell you some of the things I believe and you can tell me how well it jives with the ELCA.

I am pro-life, and pro-traditional marriage. I'm more ecumenical than the Confessional Lutherans would like. I don't think the Pope is the anti-christ. I believe that the bible is the inspired Word of God, but not that every single word is to be taken 100% literally (e.g. Genesis). I tend to be against female ordination. I'm not sure how I feel about the open/closed communion debate, but I can see both sides of the issue.

Having said all of that, how well do you think I would fit into an ELCA church?

The ELCA has exceptionally liberal people, especially in leadership. ELCA pastors/synod leaders are statistically far more liberal than ELCA congregations/parishioners--which is far more evenly divided. Although the recent exodus of conservative members has shifted that statistic some. But in general the claim that ELCA is "liberal" and leaving it at that is a relative claim (from those more conservative) and does not properly address the rather large spectrum of views, theology, and ethics in the ELCA. It might be best to say the ELCA is the most diverse, which means it will have both liberals and conservatives and everything in between, which makes sense when one considers its history of developing out of a variety of bodies that were across the board theologically and ethnically (which brings with it different styles of Lutheranism).

I think you can easily fit in in an ELCA congregation, but I will say this--congregations that are tipped in a more liberal collection overall you will not feel welcome or a fit for. And they are out there, make no mistake. Also, I don't know how vocal you are on these things, because with leadership as it is it becomes much harder to be a vocal conservative in social matters than liberal.

Where it will probably be most difficult is female pastors, that is a reality in the ELCA, I think something between 30-40% of all ELCA pastors are women. You're gonna run into it. Conversely, the way you approach scripture will likely be the largest rubbing point were you to join LCMS or other conservative bodies.

While they still ordain women, I would note that LCMC/NALC will likely fit many of your other values. However I think that depending on the church, you could quite easily and positively be a part of the ELCA.

Peace to you in this discernment.

 

[Tallguy88]

If you believe the bible is the "inspired" and "authoritative" word of God and not intended to be read as the "inerrant" and "infallible"word of God, you soul be able to fit into the ELCA. The ELCA Lutheran Church traces its roots to the Scandinavian region of Europe, where with Philipp Melanchthon's influence Lutheranism really took root and whole countries Denmark, Sweden, Norway, and Finland converted. Accordingly in those nations Lutherans assumed and took over the episcopal form of church government, a bishop overseeing congregational pastors. On the other hand, both the roots for both the Missouri and Wisconsin Synods are found in Germany, which for three centuries after Martin Luther continued to be a hodge podge of little postage stamp states, not really united into a country shortly before World War I. Consequently in Germany, even today one town will be Catholic, while the neighboring town three miles east will be Lutheran. Thus, German Lutherans, never united themselves under bishops and brought over to the United States the idea of local control of each church so use a congregational form of government. In fact, the Wisconsin Synod, not only prohibits women from being ordained, they are not even allowed to vote on mundane matters such as shall we spend money and fix the leaky church roof!

Issues of church government are of secondary importance to me, but I prefer an episcopal polity. As to the women voting in church issue, I have absolutely no problem with it.

Honestly, you have to look long and hard to find a "liberal" ELCA church. In most, more people with gray hair, beyond child bearing age, who are counting up the years to their fortieth (40th) and fiftieth (50th) wedding anniversaries, will be found filling the pews, than teenagers. With such demographics, I think you can guess that topics, such as abortion and "traditional marriage" makes noise an excitement for the evening television news, but are not really issues aging parishioners in local churches lie awake at night worrying about.

A very good point you make.

As to female ordination . . . a frequently overlooked fact is that today it generally costs a man or woman somewhere between $50,000.00 and $100,000.00 in order to graduate from seminary. On the other hand, when collection plates get passed around in church on Sunday morning, many people still feel that $20.00, which can be spent in a few minutes at the grocery store, represents a lifetime of savings! When you keep these economic realities in mind, the middle-aged woman who could afford to go back to seminary and accept a "part-time" (three day a week) job as pastor for small rural country congregation because her husband is well-paid doctor at local hospital, suddenly doesn't look too bad. By the way it is unfair to pass judgment on female pastors until you have listened to some sermons from a few of them. Many of them are more gifted speakers than their male counterparts. I look forward to those weeks when the elderly celibate "old-maid" chaplain at nearby nursing home subs for pastor when he takes a vacation.

I'm not hardcore against female ordination. It's just that coming out of the Catholic church, I've just got a gut reaction against it. In time, I might open up to it more.

Finally, regarding "Open Communion" . . . you will have to go people at a Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) questions about this practice. Contrary to propaganda from the LCMS and WELS, the ELCA does not celebrate open communion. The sacrament is available to those who believe that Christ is truly present in, with, and under the bread and wine. We only have intercommunion with other Christians, who have a similar understanding of baptism and our covenant relationship with God as we do (i.e., the Episcopal, Presbyterian, Reformed, and Methodist). We have no official relationship with aforementioned Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), or the Assembly of God, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc. People from other backgrounds should have a discussion with the pastor before communing in an ELCA church. We always have visitors who pass on communion, presumably because they do not believe the bread and wine to be Christ's true body and blood. By the way the agreement between the Lutheran ELCA and Episcopal ECUSA had been the most fruitful Lutheran pastors have been accepted as priests for Episcopal parishes without a clergyman/woman and vice versa. This has been because our worship services are structured the same and we shad a close and common understanding of Holy Communion.

I definitely believe in the Real Presence. I'm also a Baptized and Confirmed believer.

Thanks for your reply!

 

[Tallguy88]

Well, the main Lutheran forum here on CF is quite conservative. Sometimes "very liberal" just means "more liberal than me". There's a lot of room to be more liberal than that without being heretical or apostate.

Oh, I've definitely noticed that!

And I think how well you would fit in would depend on the pastor and the congregation. Some are pretty liberal, others more conservative... though it is true that, on the average, ELCA will be more liberal than LCMS... but that can be a good thing.

That's what I figured.

(Don't let my Anglican icon fool you. I am both TEC and ELCA. My church has -- unusually -- both affiliations.)

How did that happen?

 

[Tallguy88]

The ELCA has exceptionally liberal people, especially in leadership. ELCA pastors/synod leaders are statistically far more liberal than ELCA congregations/parishioners--which is far more evenly divided. Although the recent exodus of conservative members has shifted that statistic some. But in general the claim that ELCA is "liberal" and leaving it at that is a relative claim (from those more conservative) and does not properly address the rather large spectrum of views, theology, and ethics in the ELCA. It might be best to say the ELCA is the most diverse, which means it will have both liberals and conservatives and everything in between, which makes sense when one considers its history of developing out of a variety of bodies that were across the board theologically and ethnically (which brings with it different styles of Lutheranism).

I'm fine with differing opinions in the pews. If I get an off-the-wall pastor, I'll know to pass on that church.

I think you can easily fit in in an ELCA congregation, but I will say this--congregations that are tipped in a more liberal collection overall you will not feel welcome or a fit for. And they are out there, make no mistake. Also, I don't know how vocal you are on these things, because with leadership as it is it becomes much harder to be a vocal conservative in social matters than liberal.

I'm not too worried about it. Conservatives outweigh liberals probably 3-1 in the area.

Where it will probably be most difficult is female pastors, that is a reality in the ELCA, I think something between 30-40% of all ELCA pastors are women. You're gonna run into it. Conversely, the way you approach scripture will likely be the largest rubbing point were you to join LCMS or other conservative bodies.

Fortunately, The ELCA church I'm going to visit has a male pastor, so I won't have to deal with the issue right away.

While they still ordain women, I would note that LCMC/NALC will likely fit many of your other values. However I think that depending on the church, you could quite easily and positively be a part of the ELCA.

Peace to you in this discernment.

Thanks!

 

[AngCath]

As others have made clear, the situation on the ground and the national situation are not identical and neither is as extreme as some in the other synods would have you believe. If you were to visit my congregation, for example, other than the use of Evangelical Lutheran Worship the only real hint that it is ELCA would be the bulletin. As was mentioned before, many churches that are in the ELCA rather than one of the other synods (and vice versa) has to do with ethnic migration and history. My congregation, for instance, was founded as a German congregation, just not the same Germans fleeing the Prussian Union (hence it ended up in the LCA and then ELCA rather than LCMS).
As for worship, we have a male pastor (we've never had a female, though that could always change in the future), worship in an old fashioned building complete with side chapel, and sing the liturgy.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

How did that happen?

Well, we started 10 years ago as an ELCA mission station as a house church, and ELCA has a full communion agreement with TEC. Then we acquired a storefront and became a Christian hang out spot. Eventually, we moved into a funky old historic church building which doubles as a neighborhood arts center. Somewhere in there, I'm not sure exactly when (I hadn't yet come on board), we also became a TEC mission station. Earlier this year, our charter was approved and we officially became an ELCA church. I think the TEC charter is pending.

Anyway, we're bucking the trend of being an aging, declining congregation. From our house church start 10 years ago, we now have an average Sunday attendance of about 100, and an average age of 27.

 

[Tallguy88]

Well, we started 10 years ago as an ELCA mission station as a house church, and ELCA has a full communion agreement with TEC. Then we acquired a storefront and became a Christian hang out spot. Eventually, we moved into a funky old historic church building which doubles as a neighborhood arts center. Somewhere in there, I'm not sure exactly when (I hadn't yet come on board), we also became a TEC mission station. Earlier this year, our charter was approved and we officially became an ELCA church. I think the TEC charter is pending.

Anyway, we're bucking the trend of being an aging, declining congregation. From our house church start 10 years ago, we now have an average Sunday attendance of about 100, and an average age of 27.

That's great! I really like the Anglican tradition. And I still sometimes pray using Compline from the ECUSA's Book of Common Prayer.

 

[Tallguy88]

As others have made clear, the situation on the ground and the national situation are not identical and neither is as extreme as some in the other synods would have you believe. If you were to visit my congregation, for example, other than the use of Evangelical Lutheran Worship the only real hint that it is ELCA would be the bulletin. As was mentioned before, many churches that are in the ELCA rather than one of the other synods (and vice versa) has to do with ethnic migration and history. My congregation, for instance, was founded as a German congregation, just not the same Germans fleeing the Prussian Union (hence it ended up in the LCA and then ELCA rather than LCMS).
As for worship, we have a male pastor (we've never had a female, though that could always change in the future), worship in an old fashioned building complete with side chapel, and sing the liturgy.

That's good to hear. I'll report back on Sunday of my experience in this church.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

That's great! I really like the Anglican tradition. And I still sometimes pray using Compline from the ECUSA's Book of Common Prayer.

Btw, TEC = ECUSA. TEC (The Episcopal Church) is what they use now. The 1979 BCP is still standard.

 

[Tallguy88]

Btw, TEC = ECUSA. TEC (The Episcopal Church) is what they use now. The 1979 BCP is still standard.

Oh, I know. ECUSA was standard when I went to an Episcopal church a few years ago. Didn't know that it was an official change though. And the '79 is what I use.

 

[alton3]

A couple of things to look for, not necessarily in this order:

1. If a church advertises itself as a 'reconciling congregation' or a 'welcoming congregation,' you've got liberals. There's no other way around it. I doubt very much there are more than a handful of these - if any - in the LCMS. The ELCA, on the other hand...

2. Which Bible translations the church recommends and the company that translation keeps. For example:

"[The NRSV] is also widely used by the United Methodist Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Presbyterian Church (USA), the United Church of Christ, the Reformed Church in America, and the United Church of Canada."

The NRSV uses over-the-top gender-inclusive language. "Blessed is the man" becomes "happy is the mortal," among other eyebrow-raisers. LCMS generally recommends the ESV and NASB.

3. Where the church is located. Larger churches tend to take on the flavor of their broader environment. If you live in a liberal (or even just a large) city, as I do, your mainline churches are generally going to be liberal. Double this for exceptionally liberal cities, like mine. It can go the other way; I've been to small towns in Montana filled with nothing but conservative UCC churches, and just about everywhere else they're about as far left as a church can go. Nevertheless, in cities the larger denominations like the ELCA, Episcopal Church, PCUSA, etc. are going to be liberal.

So, yes, by virtue of being a large mainline denomination, the ELCA is that bad. You may find a congregation here and there that adheres to Biblical standards and practices, but if you can't walk into any ol' ELCA church then there's a smudge somewhere on the bigger picture.

 

[Cjwinnit]

Sometimes "very liberal" just means "more liberal than me".

That's always what it means

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

A couple of things to look for, not necessarily in this order:

1. If a church advertises itself as a 'reconciling congregation' or a 'welcoming congregation,' you've got liberals. There's no other way around it. I doubt very much there are more than a handful of these - if any - in the LCMS. The ELCA, on the other hand...

2. Which Bible translations the church recommends and the company that translation keeps. For example:

"[The NRSV] is also widely used by the United Methodist Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Presbyterian Church (USA), the United Church of Christ, the Reformed Church in America, and the United Church of Canada."

The NRSV uses over-the-top gender-inclusive language. "Blessed is the man" becomes "happy is the mortal," among other eyebrow-raisers. LCMS generally recommends the ESV and NASB.

3. Where the church is located. Larger churches tend to take on the flavor of their broader environment. If you live in a liberal (or even just a large) city, as I do, your mainline churches are generally going to be liberal. Double this for exceptionally liberal cities, like mine. It can go the other way; I've been to small towns in Montana filled with nothing but conservative UCC churches, and just about everywhere else they're about as far left as a church can go. Nevertheless, in cities the larger denominations like the ELCA, Episcopal Church, PCUSA, etc. are going to be liberal.

So, yes, by virtue of being a large mainline denomination, the ELCA is that bad. You may find a congregation here and there that adheres to Biblical standards and practices, but if you can't walk into any ol' ELCA church then there's a smudge somewhere on the bigger picture.

1. Liberal in the sense of welcoming homosexuals at least. That's what those phrases are code for.

2. A lot of us think the NRSV is a pretty good translation, though I"m fond of the ESV too.

3. Right about the location. My TEC/ELCA church is located in a hippy-ish neighborhood in a very liberal city, so predictably it's liberal. But we're orthodox too, at least in the sense that we can say the Nicene Creed without crossing our fingers behind our backs.

 

[CMatt25]

Finally, regarding "Open Communion" . . . you will have to go people at a Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) questions about this practice. Contrary to propaganda from the LCMS and WELS, the ELCA does not celebrate open communion. The sacrament is available to those who believe that Christ is truly present in, with, and under the bread and wine. We only have intercommunion with other Christians, who have a similar understanding of baptism and our covenant relationship with God as we do (i.e., the Episcopal, Presbyterian, Reformed, and Methodist). We have no official relationship with aforementioned Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), or the Assembly of God, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc. People from other backgrounds should have a discussion with the pastor before communing in an ELCA church. We always have visitors who pass on communion, presumably because they do not believe the bread and wine to be Christ's true body and blood. By the way the agreement between the Lutheran ELCA and Episcopal ECUSA had been the most fruitful Lutheran pastors have been accepted as priests for Episcopal parishes without a clergyman/woman and vice versa. This has been because our worship services are structured the same and we shad a close and common understanding of Holy Communion.

An Episcopal priest has told me they believe in the presence of Christ's body and blood but if someone feels called to receive, then so be it as no one is interrogating communicants at the altar. I had previously understood TEC to practice open communion for baptized Christians in the trinitarian form. I hadn't known until recently that ELCA was only open to those believing in the physical real presence of His body and blood.

But do Presbyterians and Reformed believe in the bread and wine to be Christ's true body and blood in the manner Lutherans and Episcopalians do? I didn't realize they did. I've even asked a United Methodist pastor once about this and he said at his church they believed in the spiritual presence but not the actual physical presence. Your mention of the Disciples though brought to mind something a DoC pastor once told me. He said they believed the bread and wine to be symbolic representations but that they sure hoped the spirit is present.

 

[Luther073082]

Tallguy88. . . I will agree with the posters here that the national leadership of the ELCA is far more liberal then your average person who attends the church and probably more liberal then many of it's pastors.

But the biggest "boots on the ground" difference that I've noticed is that there is such a wide spectrum of beliefs in the ELCA. The ELCA does it's level best to try and make everyone conservative to liberal feel welcome. The problem with this is that I don't think you can really please all of the people and in the end I think the liberals leave feeling more pleased about it all then the conservatives. And of course you will see women being pastors in the ELCA which you would not see in the LCMS/WELS.

The spectrum of beliefs in the LCMS are not nearly as large, so the unity of the denomination is in my opinion much much stronger.

The question to me is much more of what you are willing to put up with from the national leadership and what you are willing to accept other churches in your denomination preaching.

Quite frankly when I left the ELCA I was never really upset by what was going on in my church, I was more upset by the national leadership who acted in my opinion more like a group of liberal activists then the leadership of a church. And because of that I have seen value in what the confessional churches teach.

And the general board is pretty much all conservatives. I say that admitting that I am one in general.

 

[CMatt25]

Tallguy88. . . I will agree with the posters here that the national leadership of the ELCA is far more liberal then your average person who attends the church and probably more liberal then many of it's pastors.

I've heard something similar said about the Episcopal Church and even the United Church of Christ. Though the UCC pastors I know of seem rather liberal.

 

[Luther073082]

I've heard something similar said about the Episcopal Church and even the United Church of Christ. Though the UCC pastors I know of seem rather liberal.

It may be true.

Reality is a lot of times people go to a church or a denomination because that is the one they have been attending since they where a child. Unlike me most did not choose their denomination.

So most of their congregation may not be aware or even care what their national leadership is doing. Some may be upset about it but figure they can't do anything and arn't willing to change churches.

Some might just accept that times change and not give a lot of thought to it all.

Lots of people go to church just cause that's what they where raised doing. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but those people are probably also the least likely to react to changes in doctrine and teaching.