is it just if God...

[canadianicon25]

if God created a world that has many degrees of freedom is it fair that he would have included random genetic mutation as a part of it ( disease and deformity)? Essentially is it fair that he created a world that has good and evil in the very environment that people exist in? don't tell me that people choose to get sickle cell anemia.

if God exercised his ability to create in the same way the people exercise their ability to create is it just that he set people free or should he have kept them as slaves to their maker and only allow them to know good?

 

[2ndRateMind]

Hmmm. This is the problem of evil, which still exercises both philosophers and theologians. If God is omniscient, omnibenevolent and omnipotent, how come evil exists, right? Why use evolution as his method of creating species, and individuals, and you, and me, given that there are so many casualties of natural selection?

The standard response is that as regards moral evil (ie., human evil) we need to have freedom of action to develop spiritually, and love freely, as God desires. It is doubtful whether the love of a robot is an importantly valuable thing.

As for natural evil, such as earthquakes, hurricanes, stuff like that. Well, up until recently, it was my fond belief that God had built for us the best of all possible worlds, and that without the extreme natural occurrences, we could not have had the benign ones, such as weather, and mountains, and valleys, and the myriad natural variation that makes the planet beautiful and interesting.

But, I've been studying an edX course in philosophy, and it's thrown up an issue I hadn't considered. If God is omnipotent, there exists an infinite number of worlds He could have created. And, for any good world He creates, there are an infinite number of possible better ones. So, maybe we don't have the best of all possible worlds, after all, just an arbitrary choice from an infinite selection...

I haven't thought through the implications of this, yet.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[SwordFall]

if God created a world that has many degrees of freedom is it fair that he would have included random genetic mutation as a part of it ( disease and deformity)? Essentially is it fair that he created a world that has good and evil in the very environment that people exist in? don't tell me that people choose to get sickle cell anemia.

if God exercised his ability to create in the same way the people exercise their ability to create is it just that he set people free or should he have kept them as slaves to their maker and only allow them to know good?

God created evil to make good evident. There is no purpose or spiritual growth without both.

 

[canadianicon25]

Why use evolution as his method of creating species, and individuals, and you, and me, given that there are so many casualties of natural selection?

Thanks for the response. Just a quick comment about above: I don't think evolution happened; way too many holes in the theory. I think God put all the stuff there to allow the theory of evolution to exist but it was for freedom purposes; people don't have to believe in God if they don't want to so he provided a way for people to develop a theory the doesn't involve a 3rd party.

As far a evil goes: is it just to create life without setting it free? could God have created beings that were simply his 'pets' but never has a say in anything they did, they just did whatever God wanted them to?

God created evil to make good evident
That is unfair. Why would some people get stuck with getting Leukemia or something and suffering to death to simply make un-suffering people see good.

 

[FlameAlchemist]

Why use evolution as his method of creating species, and individuals, and you, and me, given that there are so many casualties of natural selection?

Thanks for the response. Just a quick comment about above: I don't think evolution happened; way too many holes in the theory. I think God put all the stuff there to allow the theory of evolution to exist but it was for freedom purposes; people don't have to believe in God if they don't want to so he provided a way for people to develop a theory the doesn't involve a 3rd party.

As far a evil goes: is it just to create life without setting it free? could God have created beings that were simply his 'pets' but never has a say in anything they did, they just did whatever God wanted them to?

God created evil to make good evident
That is unfair. Why would some people get stuck with getting Leukemia or something and suffering to death to simply make un-suffering people see good.

I think Darwin's theory of evolution is full of holes, however it is evident that things evolve over time, I don't hold Darwinian evolution as true, but I do think humans have changed over time to live better in the world.

 

[canadianicon25]

yeah. i don't dispute microevolutin which is just gene pool ( think breeds of dog and cats) and people evolve through learning too.

 

[SwordFall]

God created evil to make good evident
That is unfair. Why would some people get stuck with getting Leukemia or something and suffering to death to simply make un-suffering people see good.

~Isaiah 45:7~
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

God is the Logos of the universe, the Logic of all reality. As such, you need to come down off the 'fair' argument and think more critically.

 

[canadianicon25]

.God is the Logos of the universe, the Logic of all reality. As such, you need to come down off the 'fair' argument and think more critically,


Uh, I beg your pardon. If justice is true justice it has to be fair.

 

[2ndRateMind]

Of course, 'unfair' though it be, it could be suggested that God built the world for us to improve, to give us something meaningful to do with lives that would otherwise be devoid of purpose. So, your leukemia or cystic fibrosis sufferer provides the catalyst for medical science and loving care and, perhaps, our advances in such areas are important to God...

 

[~Anastasia~]

Did God create evil?

Something in me says this is not accurate. Depending what you mean by evil. On the days of Creation, God surveyed His work and proclaimed it either "Good" or "Very good".

From Is 45:7, I checked the Hebrew lexicon. Now, I am certainly no expert by any means. I really struggle with exact meanings in translations sometimes. But this word has such a range of possible meanings, that I wonder if how we understand "evil" is really the thing God says he is responsible for in this verse.

If you wish to view diseases as a punishment (and sometimes it would seem it has been allowed for that purpose), then fine. But I wonder if the genetic accidents and so on are not simply a consequence of the fall. Perhaps God uses them to advance His purposes, perhaps He allows them as punishment sometimes, and perhaps sometimes they are just a result of living in a no-longer-perfect world that is degenerating.

I just have a hard time thinking God actually created evil itself.

Anyway - here's a paste of the list of words from the lexicon.

Strong's Number: 07451
Original Word Word Origin
[r from (07489)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Ra` TWOT - 2191a,2191c
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
rah
Definition
adj
bad, evil
bad, disagreeable, malignant
bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
evil, displeasing
bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
bad (of value)
worse than, worst (comparison)
sad, unhappy
evil (hurtful)
bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
in general, of persons, of thoughts
deeds, actions n m
evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
evil, distress, adversity
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical) n f
evil, misery, distress, injury
evil, misery, distress
evil, injury, wrong
evil (ethical)

 

[canadianicon25]

if God built this world that means he put people in a place where there is the possibility of suffering when a person has done nothing to deserve it.

perhaps it is for contrast purpose. how would someone know how great love is if there was nothing to contrast it with? if God never allowed Eve to turn her back on him would they understand how precious God's love is? Would it matter seems how they were around Him all the time anyway?

 

[SwordFall]

.God is the Logos of the universe, the Logic of all reality. As such, you need to come down off the 'fair' argument and think more critically,


Uh, I beg your pardon. If justice is true justice it has to be fair.

You don't know the true meaning of fair.

 

[canadianicon25]

I'm pretty sure it's not fair for a 4 year old to be diagnosed with cancer when there was no way of preventing it. That's environmental. You can't change that at all. Totally unjustifiable.

 

[SwordFall]

I'm pretty sure it's not fair for a 4 year old to be diagnosed with cancer when there was no way of preventing it. That's environmental. You can't change that at all. Totally unjustifiable.

That's only because you think the world should be perfect. Do you think the apostles thought it was fair that they should be hunted down and martyred?
And yet, the whole time, they preached God to the end. Why do you think that is?

Better yet, you should read the book of Job. Quit whining and pick up a Bible.

 

[canadianicon25]

That's only because you think the world should be perfect. Do you think the apostles thought it was fair that they should be hunted down and martyred?
And yet, the whole time, they preached God to the end.

Better yet, you should read the book of Job. Quit whining and pick up a Bible.

Quit whining? Seriously? Am I the only one who thinks that God created a ridiculous world and put people in it? Where was your chance in the garden of Eden to not shake the serpent's hand, so to speak. You didn't even get a chance to not sin! How is that fair?

What's wrong if I think the world should be perfect? It's not like God couldn't do it, but he didn't did he? WHY?

And on top of it he had apostles! That were hunted down for doing something that God wanted them to do. What kind of boss tells his employees that if they do what he wants them do to they will die?

​

 

[Grandiose]

A limited being such as a human is logically fallible, and thus cannot determine true fairness. Our notions of fairness are formed emotionally, not reasonably. Simple fact. Determining fairness requires omniscient thought, are you omniscient?

 

[canadianicon25]

Emotions are real and would have to be considered in fairness too. It's not fair necessarily for someone to feel bad.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Perhaps our sense of fairness, justice, and the idea that the world "should be perfect" are a sense we have from God, who created a perfect world in the first place. There never would have been sickness, death, deteriorating genes, and 4-year-olds with cancer, were it not for the fall.

We can groan along with all of creation, waiting for the restoration of all things. There are many terrible consequences of the fall - we are plagued by all kinds of sadness in our lives on this earth.

I'm sure God looks forward to it too. I'm reminded - maybe because Christmas is almost here - of a loving parent who has a most wonderful gift in store for their beloved child, enjoying the thought of that child's delight when they - very soon - will be opening that wondrous gift.

 

[canadianicon25]

Well....


I think God caused the fall. He set people free into a world that is good and evil which includes healthy and unhealthy, fear and safety etc. Freedom may seem precious but is it really? Without freedom nothing bad would happen because we would be living in the garden of Eden. What is God's reason for putting people in a world that has many degrees of freedom that includes evil?

Maybe it's so people learn the difference between things and realize what the most important things about existence actually are.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Well....


I think God caused the fall.

Wouldn't that be the same thing as saying God tempted Eve (and by extension Adam) to sin?


James 1:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man


Just curious how you reconcile that? It may be that we would have to agree to disagree.