Is Hell eternal ?

[allandnull]

What...are you saying it's not true because a specific number of people isn't mentioned? That's absurd!

If God doesn't say it then faithfulness to Him and His word demand that you do not say it either. Say what you believe with Scripture that actually says it. Additionally, this scroll Revelation has a special curse for any who add to or take away from it's words. Not an irrelevancy by any means.

THAT's EXACTLY what it says!!!! God so loved the whole world that he gave his Son, that WHOSOEVER BELIEVES should not perish. We're all under wrath until we choose to believe in Christ.

I don't think you can reconcile what you believe with John 3:16. You, like so many others, really read it as, "For God so loved (some, not all of) the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (some, not all of) whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." God cannot be loving forever those He is torturing forever. That would make Him a sadistic schizophrenic with multiple personality disorder and something worse than serial murderers who at least grant release when they kill their victims. "All things are for His pleasure" according to Scripture. If this is what He actually does to satisfy His Divine justice, then how satisfying can it be? Really, if He has to keep torturing them then He can never be satisfied! There for He has to get pleasure out of torturing those He loves. Sick! Sick!! Sick!!!

Eternal Tormenters don't believe it is for "whosoever" either. One of the important keys to their mis-belief is they believe, rather than God, death determines destiny. God only loves you until you die, a thought never expressed in Scripture. They think once you die, that's it! No second chances. I don't believe in a first chance! God's not running this by chance. None of this idea is ever supported in Scripture. If the Lord is willing, I'll share more about this point later. The entire idea of Ultimate Restoration can be characterized in several ways. One is that whatever any of God's children believe, none of it has to change except that God's saving grace, His work of cleansing, delivering and forming into His own image continues after one dies. "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Pet 4:6)

I'm the one posting scripture after scripture. Yours is just judgment and commentary.

This is so untrue! Other than forgetting to compensate for your forgetfulness, only if you haven't read every post in this entire thread would you come to such a false conclusion about what I've posted. I really suspect that what I posted about the eons was not very well read. It is a little demanding. I hope you don't fail to read it because by calling it a bad name you feel free to ignore it. If my explanation is wrong, then find one for yourself.

Here's another one that proves the point:

Daniel 12:2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


IT's weird that this is even an issue.

The word translated "everlasting" is "olam," meaning an "age." In a previous post I demonstrated irrefutably from many quotes that you cannot believe the Bible means forever or everlasting and the like when it uses such words.

 

[Jerrysch]

Hi, this is my first post here, as I have just registered with Christian Forums.

I have been doing a little research on the above topic on the internet. Does the original Greek and Hebrew versions support the doctrine of 'eternal' hell, esp. with the words of our Lord Jesus ? I am not enquiring here about the 'fire' in hell, as this could be an anology of God's wrath of fire ("spiritual" fire).

The reason I ask is that some preachers, theologians, etc., including C.S. Lewis (as far as I know), do not believe in the everlasting duration of hell's punishment. Are they correct ? Is the eternal part of hell something that has been translated into modern versions that do not line up with the original versions ?

Thanks to all respondents on this question.

Many will argue regarding this... yet Scripture indicates:

Rev20:11 ¶ Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

We learn about the nature of this place in the same chapter;

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

I think the meaning of this forever and ever can be discovered when the other passages which use this construction are evaluated;
Eph 3:21
Php 4:20
1Ti 1:17
2Ti 4:18
Heb 1:8
Heb 13:21
1Pe 4:11
1Pe 5:11
Re 1:6
Re 4:9
Re 4:10
Re 5:13
Re 7:12
Re 10:6
Re 11:15
Re 14:11
Re 15:7
Re 19:3
Re 20:10
Re 22:5

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

God chose pharaoh to pour out HIS wrath on and hardened his heart in order to display HIS power and glory to the people that HE chose to be merciful to.

Just as the Priesthood/Temple in Jerusalem was chosen for His wrath to display His power to the NC Saints in Jesus, both the Jews and non-Jews.

What I found interesting while studying the greek was how close the word used for "pharisees" is close to the word for "pharoah"

Exodus 7:1 And YHWH is saying to Mosheh, "See! I give thee [as] Elohiym to Pharaoh/Par`oh, and 'Aharown thy brother shall be thy prophet;

Matthew 12:14 And the Pharisees/farisaioi <5330> having gone forth, held a consultation against Him, how they might destroy Him,

Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's/faraw <5328> daughter;

5328. Pharao far-ah-o' of foreign origin (6547); Pharao (i.e. Pharoh), an Egyptian king:--Pharaoh.
2447. ios ee-os' perhaps from eimi (to go) or hiemi (to send); rust (as if emitted by metals); also venom (as emitted by serpents):--poison, rust. AV - poison 2, rust 1; 3

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

This is an example of the garbled speech of minds deranged by the man-made maze of religious riddles. Simple right and wrong, good and evil are avoided like the plague. You have God the victim of His creation. It's their fault. They've forced Him to become the Master Torturer. He's not wise enough or strong enough to destroy the works of the devil.

Hogwash!!!

Is that the best you can do? I posited philosophical and sound exegetical responses and the best you can say is:

"NUH UH!"

Wow . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hi mat,

The atonement is efficacious to all who were atoned for. Please do a search of graceonlinelibrary John Murray. "The Atonement".

He proves in scripture why the atonement is efficacious to all who were atoned for.

Grace and peace.

I dont have a problem with this . . . but I affirm that the efficacy of the atonement MUST BE APPROPRIATED THROUGH FAITH.

It will not be forced on someone who DOES NOT WANT IT.

Then again . . . there is those passages in Hebrews . . .

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Concerning your anti-Biblical assertion that people burning, with the smoke of their own burning in their nostrils yet blaspheme and shake their fists at God in permanent rebellion...man, serial killers are merciful compared to a God like this, and, unless you are devoted to perversion of the deepest dye, you cannot repeatedly meditate on this sort of thing over a period of time. Not only is this NOT WRITTEN any where in Sacred Scripture, The Word says the opposite.

1 Corinthians 15:20-28
20 And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead--the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,
21 for since through man is the death, also through man is a rising again of the dead,
22 for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23 and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
24 then--the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power--
25 for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet--
26 the last enemy is done away--death;
27 for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, it is evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28 and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all.

Then to say those in this "hell" are there of their own accord, what you call, "actualized in their rejection of the person and work of Christ" is quite the lack of understanding to say the least. I suppose you include the 6,000 million Jews who were tortured and killed by Hitler. They didn't believe in Jesus you know. Of course that they're in the same hell with their tormentors can't make any difference to you or anyone else deeply into this doctrine. These are people that can't ever have mattered because God knows the ends from the beginning. You've been taught not to love them. It's their fault. They are there by their own choice.

The lake of fire is never called "hell" in the Bible, but I suppose your not thinking of that. I have to guess which Greek word "hell" is pasted over. Any time Scripture speaks of something going into the Lake of Fire it is said they are thrown or cast into it. Until the latter half of the 20th century this is what the torture mongerers always taught. You don't put yourself there. It is the judgment of God. It reminds me of something a friend (Martin Cisneros) said to the effect of: They insist God is too much of a gentleman to force anybody into the kingdom of God. God won't force anybody into heaven. But they aren't troubled in the least that God is forceably shoveling truckloads of people into hell fire all day long. Somebody pass the popcorn please. Now it is fashionable to change it so God seems less responsible. With all His wisdom and power He just can't help it! I read elswhere you saying He could but won't. I wonder if you can think of any other slander against God worse than what you suppose is the truth about Him. Please try to imagine it and let me know. Really!!! I've not been able to surpass this Satanic concoction from the religious traditions of carnal minds.


---James M. Rohde

Dude, Rev 14 makes is quite clear that the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever . . . so much for anti-biblical.

Oh yeah, not to mention the principle of God's greatest fearsome judgement being GIVING ONE OVER TO THEIR OWN DEPRAVED DESIRES so that they reprobate and are actualized in the depravity in their own hearts. You know that principle that is QUITE CLEARLY outlined in Romans 1 and 2?

Seems my contentions are quite Biblical.

The eternal state of the damned is given a great many names to describe the vastness of its horror . . . death, destruction, weeping, gnashing of teeth, punishment, outer darkness, gehenna, burning, away from the presence of the Lord, outside the city (New Jerusalem) walls, and LAKE OF FIRE. Just because one concept of this description is not explicitly linked with another does not make them any different. Hell is hell . . . whether you want to call it one of these or another name . . . the horror of not enjoying one's Creator is still the same.

You don't put yourself there. It is the judgment of God.

And, what, praytell is that judgement for? FOR WHAT YOU HAVE DONE . . . IOW YOU ARE THERE OF YOUR OWN ACCORD. No dice dude. They are there because of their uncovered sins found in the books of the deeds.

Rom 1:18-25
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
NASU

THIS IS ACTUALIZATION. And, IMO, it is one of the most horrific judgements of God. It is THOROUGHLY BIBLICAL. The action of God is PREDICATED upon what the men have ALREADY DONE. God removes the restraining net to let them wallow in the sins that THEY HAVE CHOSEN OVER GOD. Sorry, but my point stands.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Just as the Priesthood/Temple in Jerusalem was chosen for His wrath to display His power to the NC Saints in Jesus, both the Jews and non-Jews.

What I found interesting while studying the greek was how close the word used for "pharisees" is close to the word for "pharoah"

Exodus 7:1 And YHWH is saying to Mosheh, "See! I give thee [as] Elohiym to Pharaoh/Par`oh, and 'Aharown thy brother shall be thy prophet;

Matthew 12:14 And the Pharisees/farisaioi <5330> having gone forth, held a consultation against Him, how they might destroy Him,

Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's/faraw <5328> daughter;

5328. Pharao far-ah-o' of foreign origin (6547); Pharao (i.e. Pharoh), an Egyptian king:--Pharaoh.
2447. ios ee-os' perhaps from eimi (to go) or hiemi (to send); rust (as if emitted by metals); also venom (as emitted by serpents):--poison, rust. AV - poison 2, rust 1; 3

What I found interesting while studying the greek was how close the word used for "pharisees" is close to the word for "pharoah"

Only because they are phonetically similiar . . .

 

[HisdaughterJen]

The Word of God! All else is opinion, is it not?

AMEN!!!!

 

[HisdaughterJen]

If God doesn't say it then faithfulness to Him and His word demand that you do not say it either. Say what you believe with Scripture that actually says it. Additionally, this scroll Revelation has a special curse for any who add to or take away from it's words. Not an irrelevancy by any means.

YES! AND YOU ARE TAKING AWAY FROM IT AND CALLING GOD ALL KINDS OF NAMES!!! Who do you think you are????!!!!!

I don't think you can reconcile what you believe with John 3:16. You, like so many others, really read it as, "For God so loved (some, not all of) the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that (some, not all of) whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." God cannot be loving forever those He is torturing forever. That would make Him a sadistic schizophrenic with multiple personality disorder and something worse than serial murderers who at least grant release when they kill their victims. "All things are for His pleasure" according to Scripture. If this is what He actually does to satisfy His Divine justice, then how satisfying can it be? Really, if He has to keep torturing them then He can never be satisfied! There for He has to get pleasure out of torturing those He loves. Sick! Sick!! Sick!!!

shameful...

You need to stop and think before you speak.

Those who end up separated from God are the ones who have created their own god in the place of HIM. God gives them what they are asking for. They do not love Him.

YOU are in danger. You have created, in your mind, your own god and called the ONE TRUE LIVING GOD disapproving, judgmental names within the Body of Christ. Undoubtedly YOUR god is not Holy or Just and allows sinful man in his presence regardless of what venom and hatred for Him spews out of their mouths.

Picture it...God says, "I love you". Sinner says, "I hate you". God says, "My Son died for you". Sinner says, "I don't care". God says, "Ok, you get eternal life with me and my Son forever". Sinner says, "Cool, I get to hate you, call you every name in the book, and live forever too."


It's more like this....God says, "I love you". Sinner says, "I hate you". God says, "My Son died for you". Sinner says, "I don't care". God says, "Ok, it's your choice. You may live where you choose to live. You choose sin, go live there."

Eternal Tormenters don't believe it is for "whosoever" either. One of the important keys to their mis-belief is they believe, rather than God, death determines destiny. God only loves you until you die, a thought never expressed in Scripture. They think once you die, that's it! No second chances. I don't believe in a first chance! God's not running this by chance. None of this idea is ever supported in Scripture. If the Lord is willing, I'll share more about this point later. The entire idea of Ultimate Restoration can be characterized in several ways. One is that whatever any of God's children believe, none of it has to change except that God's saving grace, His work of cleansing, delivering and forming into His own image continues after one dies. "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Pet 4:6)

Well, obviously, you don't understand what happened.

Everyone has the opportunity to accept or reject Christ's sacrifice.
Christ when to the "spirits in prison" from the time of Noah while
he was dead and led "captives" upon His ascension.

1Pe 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,
1Pe 3:19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
1Pe 3:20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.

Psa 68:18 When you ascended on high,
you led captives in your train;
you received gifts from men,
even from the rebellious&#8212;
that you, O Lord God, might dwell there.

This is so untrue! Other than forgetting to compensate for your forgetfulness, only if you haven't read every post in this entire thread would you come to such a false conclusion about what I've posted. I really suspect that what I posted about the eons was not very well read. It is a little demanding. I hope you don't fail to read it because by calling it a bad name you feel free to ignore it. If my explanation is wrong, then find one for yourself.

Huh? What bad name?

 

[heavensblade23]

YES! AND YOU ARE TAKING AWAY FROM IT AND CALLING GOD ALL KINDS OF NAMES!!! Who do you think you are????!!!!!

He's not calling God names, he's calling your false conception of who God is names.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

He's not calling God names, he's calling your false conception of who God is names.

What fascinates me is that people will only choose to love and believe in God if He fits into their preconceived notions.

At least two people on here deny that there is punishment/wrath/judgment for the sinner and do not want to believe in God, calling Him worse than a serial killer and "sick, sick, sick", if He would DARE to render judgment on someone. It's placing yourself ABOVE God and judging HIM.

Furthermore, IF God decides at some point that all people will be reconciled to Himself regardless of their rejection and hatred of Him, then to God be all the glory!

Stop and think about it for a second. These people are saying that if God DARES to pour out judgment and wrath on people, then they quickly deny HIM at spew hatred at HIM. Seriously, what's up with that?

 

[justsurfing]

Jesus came to save.

God will do none of the thing that have been falsely attributed to Him in torturing people for eternity.

I'm not reacting against the real God who absolutely completed a universal atonement and is going to give everyone the same salvation.

I am reacting against an untruth about God that has nothing to do with God as He really is.

God is not an Eternal Tormentor.

It's a moot point. I know better than that.

That's something I think others may want to examine. The Lord who paid the ransom for all men and would never find it in His heart to torture people for eternity.

Have you really considered how falsely damaging it is to the Lord's reputation to say such things about how He will treat people in eternity... when no such thing ever entered His heart... and how really He must feel about being portrayed in that manner? Just something to think about.

Grace and peace.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

At least two people on here deny that there is punishment/wrath/judgment for the sinner and do not want to believe in God, calling Him worse than a serial killer and "sick, sick, sick", if He would DARE to render judgment on someone. It's placing yourself ABOVE God and judging HIM.

Can one Sin without believing in God? These Judeans believed in YHWH and looked what happened to them........

Luke 21:22 "That days of vengeance these are, of the to be filled all-things, the having been written.
23 "Woe yet to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath on the people, these.

http://www.davieapostolicchurch.com/studies/destuct/

.........Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ; and had actually eaten one half thereof, when the soldiers, allured by the smell of food, threatened her with instant death if she refused to discover it. .................

 

[justsurfing]

Hi Mat,

Yet it is God who gives faith by grace. When the Word goes forth the Spirit gives life... faith as the Spirit moves inside people to give them faith.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

The faith is Spirit faith supernatural... and so is the hearing... of the Spirit supernatural. It happens in our spirits. When our spirits receive faith ministered by the Spirit, this is regeneration. It's beneath the threshold of conscious awareness (most usually). Then choice moves through soul as the result of faith in spirit in God's Life... and the choice is conscious awareness.

That's why we must and do choose Christ freely... yet it is the result of God working in us by His Spirit by grace.

This is why God can move by His Spirit to give supernatural faith as He wills to when He wills to... and people as the result freely choose Christ. He can do this work in those who are on the left on Judgment Day.

He has that power and ability.

The nature of the atonement is such that it constitutes a past tense atonement and reconciliation. In the atonement itself is the pre-condition, by virtue of it's nature, that the atonement shall be applied by God moving by His Spirit to give this faith by grace (empowering people to choose Christ freely by His Spirit)... to all who were atoned for. John Murray does a great job teaching about the atonement though he says that only the elect were atoned for (which is wrong, imo, it was obviously an unlimited/universal atonement for all sin -- he just couldn't see God being willing or able to overcome "eternal punishment".. etc.)

But it's a great work, imo.

Grace and peace.

 

[HOPEOF9]

Hell is "forever". It isn't Eternal. Forever is until time ends, Eternal is not measured by time it is eternity. Forever ends when Eternity begins.

I believe that the wicked inherit death...not eternal torment. God is merciful. Also, Jesus paid the price for us...the price wasn't eternity in hell......he'd still be there if it was the price.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Jesus came to save.

God will do none of the thing that have been falsely attributed to Him in torturing people for eternity.

I'm not reacting against the real God who absolutely completed a universal atonement and is going to give everyone the same salvation.

I am reacting against an untruth about God that has nothing to do with God as He really is.

God is not an Eternal Tormentor.

It's a moot point. I know better than that.

That's something I think others may want to examine. The Lord who paid the ransom for all men and would never find it in His heart to torture people for eternity.

Have you really considered how falsely damaging it is to the Lord's reputation to say such things about how He will treat people in eternity... when no such thing ever entered His heart... and how really He must feel about being portrayed in that manner? Just something to think about.

Grace and peace.

YOU are the one labeling HIM as an "eternal tormentor" if what the Bible says about the situation is true and it is.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Mat 8:12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Mat 13:42They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 13:50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 22:13"Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Mat 24:51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Mat 25:30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Luk 13:28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

 

[garry2]

Just on the thread title:

Is Hell eternal?

I beleive only the Father, God almighty is Eternal, having had no beginning.

Has hell always been?

 

[justsurfing]

Jen,

I didn't always realize my trusty KJV had language errors in it in relation to time element durations. I had only heard eternal torment taught all my life. It never occurred to me to check to see if all evil is destroyed on the Day of Judgment and everything is recreated including all people and everything is reconciled to God through Christ.

I'd never heard of that. So........ I served the Lord then... though I really always wondered what wassup with that. Didn't make sense that God who is Love would do that. Then I found out about the language errors, read through the whole Bible again, and am convinced this is true illumination of the Spirit.

So, really, you're not in a position to judge my personal relationship with the Lord. I always had a good relationship with Him when I was "naive" enough to believe ET was the only thing the Bible said before I gotta hold of more original language and reviewed all of scripture.

No way, Jen... no way... I've known the Lord 35 years... no way is ET correct, imo. Now I've studied it out...and I just felt awful I'd told people these things about the Lord all those years that were not true of Him at all. And it's horrifying to realize one has believed a great big lie like that that so falsely portrays God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

There's total destruction of all evil on the Day of Judgment... then it turns into a total day of mercy in recreation anew in Christ. That's just like Jesus, now isn't it... to save the world.

Grace and peace.

YOU are the one labeling HIM as an "eternal tormentor" if what the Bible says about the situation is true and it is.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Hi Mat,

Yet it is God who gives faith by grace. When the Word goes forth the Spirit gives life... faith as the Spirit moves inside people to give them faith.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

The faith is Spirit faith supernatural... and so is the hearing... of the Spirit supernatural. It happens in our spirits. When our spirits receive faith ministered by the Spirit, this is regeneration. It's beneath the threshold of conscious awareness (most usually). Then choice moves through soul as the result of faith in spirit in God's Life... and the choice is conscious awareness.

That's why we must and do choose Christ freely... yet it is the result of God working in us by His Spirit by grace.

This is why God can move by His Spirit to give supernatural faith as He wills to when He wills to... and people as the result freely choose Christ. He can do this work in those who are on the left on Judgment Day.

He has that power and ability.

The nature of the atonement is such that it constitutes a past tense atonement and reconciliation. In the atonement itself is the pre-condition, by virtue of it's nature, that the atonement shall be applied by God moving by His Spirit to give this faith by grace (empowering people to choose Christ freely by His Spirit)... to all who were atoned for. John Murray does a great job teaching about the atonement though he says that only the elect were atoned for (which is wrong, imo, it was obviously an unlimited/universal atonement for all sin -- he just couldn't see God being willing or able to overcome "eternal punishment".. etc.)

But it's a great work, imo.

Grace and peace.

God does indeed grant faith . . . but that faith of effectual calling is granted based on FOREKNOWLEDGE. I do not buy into irresistible grace . . . for all people.

AND, you being a 4 pointer, you must surely know of the doctrine of concurrence! Man's choice is surely involved in the conversion process.