is christianity really about reconciling victims to injustice?

[FireDragon76]

...that is the message I take away from church, and one of the reasons I don't go anymore. It just seems very soul-destroying. What little is said about suffering is commandments to forgive wrongs, without a proportionate emphasis on those with power to stop hurting other people.

Christianity doesn't seem like a good religion for somebody that has endured real horrors in their life. I think Buddhism is better for this, as it has a proposal for a way out of suffering that is very clear.

 

[GrowingSmaller]

The cross is too gruesome for me, you're right. For me as an image or "telos" of goodness its upside down. It is a horror to me, and I would prefer peace.

Sounds like you want a liberation theology, youre looking for.

I have practiced buddhism, and it generates useflul peace of mind. But it can be a lonely faith, especially if the focus is purely on individual mind training as the solution. It may be internally skillful, but its a bit of a withdrawal from the world too. Its not socially motivated.

Personally I see faith as in part a like a psychoanalytic therapy, or a reprogramming of Jungian archetypes. For instance the ideal sage, an archetype:

For someobne cruelly egotistical the idea of a suffering messiah may help sensitize to suffering of others. For someone soft hearted, a military minded Mohammaden (saws) may be the sage youre looking for. For someone stressed from perplexing and troubling conceptual thought, the buddha as sage may help. Even from an atheistic perspective, a scientist or philosopher may be a "epistemic sage" which helps quieten the confusion of religious tongues.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

What little is said about suffering is commandments to forgive wrongs, without a proportionate emphasis on those with power to stop hurting other people.

On the contrary, there is quite a lot in the Bible (in both the Old and New Testament) where God or one of His followers emphasizes that the wicked will be punished unless they change their ways:

• Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless [Isaiah 13:11]
  
• Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. [John 5:28-29]
  
• "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.[Matthew 5:22]

Indeed this is why many people argue that Christianity is too harsh rather than too soft.

 

[FireDragon76]

On the contrary, there is quite a lot in the Bible (in both the Old and New Testament) where God or one of His followers emphasizes that the wicked will be punished unless they change their ways

Most of my experience has been with conservative Episcopalians and Lutherans. It seems to be that the forgiveness offered through Jesus Christ is unconditional. Go read about what Luther had to say on the matter, esp. in his letters to Melanchthon. In 1521, he wrote "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day". Unconditional grace is part of the package of Protestantism.

I just don't see Protestant churches really dealing with suffering. Because if people did see the suffering of the world in its entirety, the only moral, human thing to do, would be to mourn. They might even be angry at God, legitimately so in fact. And yet, this is not a message I get at most Protestant churches I have been to. It's all about individualistic assuaging of guilt, not spiritual enlightenment.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

I just don't see Protestant churches really dealing with suffering.

A lot of churches (of any denomination) deal with suffering: the distribute food and clothing, they collect money for charity etc. - but that's another topic.

It's all about individualistic assuaging of guilt, not spiritual enlightenment.

Suffering is very much a subjective experience. That's why both Christianity and Buddhism deal with the way individuals deal with suffering - Buddhists by trying to achieve Nirvana by following the Eightfold Path, Christians by following the life of Jesus Christ, who himself endured a great deal of suffering. Both religions focus a lot on forgiveness too.

The reason religions try to teach their followers how to cope with suffering is because a lot of tyrants and despots and bullies rely on their victims' fear and misery in order to stay in control. Having an actual instruction manual on how to overthrow oppressors* is useless unless people first have to courage and patience to do anything.

*Such instruction manuals actually do exist, such as Dictatorship to Democracy by Gene Sharp.

 

[FireDragon76]

A lot of churches (of any denomination) deal with suffering: the distribute food and clothing, they collect money for charity etc. - but that's another topic.

It is something that should be discussed. I find those sorts of gestures inadequate.

Suffering is very much a subjective experience. That's why both Christianity and Buddhism deal with the way individuals deal with suffering - Buddhists by trying to achieve Nirvana by following the Eightfold Path, Christians by following the life of Jesus Christ, who himself endured a great deal of suffering. Both religions focus a lot on forgiveness too.

Discipleship seems to be a low emphasis in Protestant churches I have had contact with. The emphasis seems to be on religion more than discipleship. "Piety" rules the day.

You rightfully quote the Bible, but I believe a lot of what passes for religion in the US isn't particularly interested in the historical Jesus or what he said or did... its interested in the divine, mythic Christ that absolves sins of a guilty conscience.

 

[Shempster]

Sounds like this version of Christianity you have been exposed to is the problem.
People LOVE to turn it all into a religion with preset parameters that they can understand. In essence, they put God in a box then wonder why they do not have this "river of flowing life" that Jesus talked about.
People who get it and have that river of life with in them respond quite differently to suffering and horror. Well, I personally believe that if you do ever " get it" then the Father will place a hedge of protection around you and you will only suffer things that HE wants you to experience for your personal growth.
Many, if not most horrors we experience is not from God but Satan. And he has no real purpose for your life than suffering and misery.
I am not a Pentecostal or any other church groupie, but it seems that Christians are sick and experiencing suffering for lack of knowledge. Lack of realizing WHO is attacking us and the power we possess to stop it.

 

[FireDragon76]

Sounds like this version of Christianity you have been exposed to is the problem.
People LOVE to turn it all into a religion with preset parameters that they can understand. In essence, they put God in a box then wonder why they do not have this "river of flowing life" that Jesus talked about.

I think its more about the problems I face are the type people expect to hear coming from third world countries... or maybe among African-Americans. Most of the churches I go to are white, so the sermons are oriented towards average white people and their concerns. There's not much discussion about what to do when your life falls apart... I think the sort of assumption is that sort of thing doesn't happen to "good" people.

Years ago, I used to attend a Buddhist meditation group that was under the lineage of Ven. Thitch Nhat Hanh, you may have heard of him. There were dharma talks but also a lot of meditation and discussion every week. Things were very real there, there were alcoholics and people dealing with anger. It just felt a lot more real than going to church on sunday and hearing the typical sermons.

Well, I personally believe that if you do ever " get it" then the Father will place a hedge of protection around you and you will only suffer things that HE wants you to experience for your personal growth.

A lot of suffering just seems purposeless, esp. if there is a conscious orchestrator behind it all.

Lack of realizing WHO is attacking us and the power we possess to stop it.

Satan might be the secondary cause, but ultimately God is sovereign over his creation, right? Unless we want to abandon classical theism altogether in favor of something like Process Theology. If you read Harold Kushner, that's sort of the direction he goes with a lot of his theology, it is heavily influenced by it (BTW, Rabbi Kushner's son died from Taysach's, a very horrible disease).

 

[timewerx]

...that is the message I take away from church, and one of the reasons I don't go anymore. It just seems very soul-destroying. What little is said about suffering is commandments to forgive wrongs, without a proportionate emphasis on those with power to stop hurting other people.

Not every part of the Bible delivers the same message.

The Bible is a collection of contradictory mess. Some self-righteous men has called it "canon" but I doubt that is the case.

If the Bible is inspired then it's penned by only one actor - God. But if this is true then God must have multiple personality disorder because no one seems to agree on the same interpretation and context that's why we have so many Christian denominations.

But I doubt that is the case, either the Bible is authored by men only, or Jesus did use the Bible to divide us just as He said He would!

 

[FireDragon76]

Sounds like you want a liberation theology, youre looking for.

I think liberation theology has its problems, even if I agree it's more the direction I think Christianity should be headed than the status quo. It's too much driven by European intellectualism with a corresponding paternalism. Even in Latin-America, it's very much not in touch, there's even a veiled sneering at popular religion, which is dismissed as superstition. Behind it all is a lingering materialism and Marxist assumptions imported into Christianity.

 

[essentialsaltes]

...that is the message I take away from church, and one of the reasons I don't go anymore. It just seems very soul-destroying. What little is said about suffering is commandments to forgive wrongs, without a proportionate emphasis on those with power to stop hurting other people.

Christianity doesn't seem like a good religion for somebody that has endured real horrors in their life.

I don't know about horrors, but this emphasis is what made the religion popular among various underclasses in the early days -- the poor, slaves, women. People Jesus and his followers targeted. It turned into a message of contentment in the current life in exchange for hope for a future one. And this is why those in power are happy to keep having this message spread about among the serfs, the peasants, the slaves... whatever form the underclass took through the ages of history. Religion as a means of social control.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't know about horrors, but this emphasis is what made the religion popular among various underclasses in the early days -- the poor, slaves, women. People Jesus and his followers targeted. It turned into a message of contentment in the current life in exchange for hope for a future one.

How do you deal with the reality that Jesus' had a word of judgement for many, as well? Particularly the religious authorities of his day?

I'm not saying that powerful religious institutions don't have the tendency to be cozy to power, but I don't see Jesus being comfortable with injustice.

 

[essentialsaltes]

How do you deal with the reality that Jesus' had a word of judgement for many, as well? Particularly the religious authorities of his day?

I'm not saying that powerful religious institutions don't have the tendency to be cozy to power, but I don't see Jesus being comfortable with injustice.

I dunno about back in Jesus' day, when he might scourge a moneylender or something, but nowadays, when does that judgment happen? After death, at the same time the poor get their reward.

I don't think it's so much about religious institutions being cozy to power, but power being supportive of a religion that glorifies suffering, and discounts worrying too much about the injustices of the real world, in preference to concerns about the next. Pay your taxes, submit to your master (or The Man), don't steal or kill, and everything will be fine. Not in this life, which is a vale of tears. But eventually.

 

[FireDragon76]

I dunno about back in Jesus' day, when he might scourge a moneylender or something, but nowadays, when does that judgment happen? After death, at the same time the poor get their reward.

I don't think it's so much about religious institutions being cozy to power, but power being supportive of a religion that glorifies suffering, and discounts worrying too much about the injustices of the real world, in preference to concerns about the next. Pay your taxes, submit to your master (or The Man), don't steal or kill, and everything will be fine. Not in this life, which is a vale of tears. But eventually.

I think that's a fair critique, but some Christians also would share it. And they'ld question whether that was Jesus' intent. I also believe there are factors in traditional Christian theology that mitigate against these sentiments, it's just they have not been emphasized as much as the message of individual salvation (particularly in a forum such as this, you will see a lot of focus on that, because that's how a certain kind of Protestant thinks of the Christian life).

One thing I will add to this... I don't think necessarily its a good idea to burden people with too much responsibility to change the world. That can set people up to be psychologically constrained to the point of helplessness or despair. There's only so much one individual can do.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I don't think it's so much about religious institutions being cozy to power, but power being supportive of a religion that glorifies suffering, and discounts worrying too much about the injustices of the real world, in preference to concerns about the next. Pay your taxes, submit to your master (or The Man), don't steal or kill, and everything will be fine. Not in this life, which is a vale of tears. But eventually.

I think this was why Neitzsche was so disparaging about it, seeing it as an example of the 'slave mentality'; he was more keen on the idea of realising the 'will to power', but he was an odd bird - although some religious authorities did and still do show a strong will to power.