if you observe Sabbath, Christ will profit you nothing. (2)

[from scratch]

My arguements are no more or less opinionated than your own. The only difference is that I'm not trying to apply carnal methods of debate to spiritual matters.

You ask "Where does the bible say Abraham kept the sabbath"
I ask "Where does it say he didn't" and yet somehow according to you my "logic" is less sound than your own? That's simply allowing your bias to show.

If you were so keen on logic we wouldn't be having this discussion. God said that Abraham kept His law and commandments. Seeing as we only see one set of laws and commandments in the scripture given by God it is highly logical to imply that this same law was given to Abraham in some form.

Logic shows that the ten commandments are a set, and there's something special about them given that God wrote them with his own finger in tablets of stone.

Logic shows that the sabbath day isn't just some holy day festival but an actual holy day. When you read the commandment you can see logically, because it's spelled out, that the day was made special from the beginning, not in an "Oh it's your birthday" type special, but in a "from sunset to sunset once a week because God says it's His day" special.

Fact is this isn't about being logical. You're not even interested in using logic because if you did, and allowed yourself to admit that someone before Moses and Israel kept the sabbath, your reason for not doing so becomes invalid.

The contention Abraham kept the Sabbath is yours. Now you must prove it. We're not obligated to prove he didn't. We didn't bring the point into focus.

 

[from scratch]

The law to love God and love your neighbor were given to Israel while they were in the wildreness. Those laws have always stood. This is the kicker though, none of us knows how to love God or our neighbor without God telling us how. Those two commandments, in short, are "Ten commandments for dummies." The first four commandments teach us how to love God. The last six teach us how to love our neighbor.

When I observe the behavior of those around me, I can't for the life of me believe we only would know if we're told.

 

[from scratch]

Genesis 26:5 tells us that Abraham obeyed and followed God’s Laws.
Right then and there YOU have to prove that it isn’t the same Law---as God’s ONE and ONLY Law.

Because what is clear throughout the “Old Testament” is that the term “My Law” is ALWAYS in reference to God’s One and Only Law. God doesn’t have multiple “My Law”s—that’s something you would understand if you actually took the time to study the word you hate to even look at and learn that it actually means Instruction and guidelines.

God’s Law is His Instructions and Guidelines of righteousness for His people.

Case in point:
"Now therefore, O LORD, the God of Israel, keep with Your servant David, my father, that which You have promised him, saying, `You shall not lack a man to sit on the throne of Israel, if only your sons take heed to their way, to walk in My law as you have walked before Me.' – 2 Chronicles 6

"Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, A people in whose heart is My law; Do not fear the reproach of man, Nor be dismayed at their revilings. – Isaiah 51

"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. – Jeremiah 31

"But they have not become contrite even to this day, nor have they feared nor walked in My law or My statutes, which I have set before you and before your fathers."' -Jeremiah 44

"In a dispute they shall take their stand to judge; they shall judge it according to My ordinances. They shall also keep My laws and My statutes in all My appointed feasts and sanctify My sabbaths. – Ezekiel 44

Though I wrote for him ten thousand precepts of My law, They are regarded as a strange thing. – Hosea 8

"THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," – Hebrews 10

We've done so even with the book of the law per Moses.

The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. Deut 5:3

 

[Stryder06]

The contention Abraham kept the Sabbath is yours. Now you must prove it. We're not obligated to prove he didn't. We didn't bring the point into focus.

I don't have to prove anything. The bible is clear that God said Abraham kept His law. If you think God had a set of laws for Abraham the burden of proof is on you to show that. What we see from scripture is one set of laws from God.

It's amazing the hops that people will jump through just to decry the sabbath commandment. It's really mindblowing.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Genesis 26:5 tells us that Abraham obeyed and followed God’s Laws.
Right then and there YOU have to prove that it isn’t the same Law---as God’s ONE and ONLY Law.

I'm sorry but without telling me what the laws were you are just speculating they are the exact same laws as given to Moses and that the Sabbath was included. This would lend me to believe that somehow people after Abraham forgot about the Sabbath Law and had to be retold via Moses and that God conveniently forgot to mention that laws were NOT given there but instead.... REMINDED.

Because what is clear throughout the “Old Testament” is that the term “My Law” is ALWAYS in reference to God’s One and Only Law. God doesn’t have multiple “My Law”s—that’s something you would understand if you actually took the time to study the word you hate to even look at and learn that it actually means Instruction and guidelines.

This is YOUR opinion and arrogant to assume God cannot give laws whenever he pleases that differ amongst the few people he had following him at the time. There is no proof that God told Abraham the same things he told Moses at all. NONE and Abraham had faith in God, the followers of Moses did NOT have faith so I would assume that some laws given would have been unneccesary in both cases.

God’s Law is His Instructions and Guidelines of righteousness for His people.

Abraham was righteous by faith, therefore by this argument he needed NO LAWS to begin with to acquire it. As some here attest you obtain righteousness by keeping the Sabbath, if Abraham was righteous already then keeping the Sabbath did NOTHING for him in that effort, it would have been superfluous.

In short you haven't proved a thing, in fact you have made me doubt even more that Abraham needed any laws as you equate them. I think that Abraham was more instructed to do things instead of God laying out laws God just said do this and don't do that and Abe obeyed and that was equated as laws.

 

[robinvanpersie]

We've done so even with the book of the law per Moses.

The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. Deut 5:3

One of these days you WILL realize that a covenant is not a law.
Until that happens...you will always fish in a pond instead of the ocean.

 

[Stryder06]

edit

 

[robinvanpersie]

I'm sorry but without telling me what the laws were you are just speculating they are the exact same laws as given to Moses and that the Sabbath was included.

This would be completely unnecessary if you would open your eyes and see—and understand that God doesn’t have MULTIPLE “My Law”s. It’s that simple.

THE LAW of God is perfect.
THE LAW of God is pure.
THE LAW of God is truth.
THE LAW of God is righteous.
THE LAW of God is Spiritual.

Abraham kept His Law.
Moses kept His Law.
David kept His Law.
Paul kept His Law.
Yeshua kept His Law.

There’s ONLY ONE.
Until you process that, you will NEVER understand what I’m purporting—because you’re soo caught up trying to find loopholes into being obedient to ALL of God’s commandments.

“this was never repeated, therefore I don’t have to obey.” “this one was not given directly to any Gentile, therefore I don’t have to obey” etc.

--
Because of THAT truth (that God's Law is a single unit) the burden of proof is on you to 'introduce' a new and improved Law of God that did not contain--such and such*

 

[MoreCoffee]

It is a pity that the law can't be discussed without the sabbatarianiam.

 

[Hizikyah]

All these anti-Sabbath people are childern of satan and they don't even know it. They act like obeying the Creator is evil and the way to life is to do whatever you consciousness permits, crazy.

Romans 8:6-8, "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; bitterly opposed to, Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be.
So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."

 

[Sophrosyne]

This would be completely unnecessary if you would open your eyes and see—and understand that God doesn’t have MULTIPLE “My Law”s. It’s that simple.

THE LAW of God is perfect.
THE LAW of God is pure.
THE LAW of God is truth.
THE LAW of God is righteous.
THE LAW of God is Spiritual.

Abraham kept His Law.
Moses kept His Law.
David kept His Law.
Paul kept His Law.
Yeshua kept His Law.

There’s ONLY ONE.
Until you process that, you will NEVER understand what I’m purporting—because you’re soo caught up trying to find loopholes into being obedient to ALL of God’s commandments.

“this was never repeated, therefore I don’t have to obey.” “this one was not given directly to any Gentile, therefore I don’t have to obey” etc.

--
Because of THAT truth (that God's Law is a single unit) the burden of proof is on you to 'introduce' a new and improved Law of God that did not contain--such and such*

I'm sorry but the bible puts extreme doubt on your assertion as does your treatment of the law as a single unit does also. If the law was "GIVEN" then it must not have been in place therefore there was no law like the law given prior to Moses that Abraham would have been a partaker of. I see nothing but circular reasoning here with complete lack of logic.
Again prove Abraham was given the Sabbath by writing PRIOR to Abraham or Abraham himself keeping a Sabbath otherwise you are trying to argue from silence.

 

[Strong in Him]

The funny thing about that statement is that Jeremiah 31 says absolutely nothing about the Law of God “changing” or being replaced, etc. God says I will put THAT same law in the hearts and minds.

What law, though?

The law that there is only one God, the laws which say they should love God with all their heart and their neighbour as themselves, the law which says that if they have sinned they should atone and offer sacrifices for those sins - or ALL the ceremonial and hygiene laws as given to the Israelites at Sinai?

I have no problem saying that the New Covenant will have huge changes, better promises etc. But the Scriptures say NOTHING about the New Covenant containing a “new Law”.

If it's a NEW Covenant, it's a NEW covenant. The covenant made at Sinai between God and the people he rescued from Israel was broken time and time again; by the people, not by God.

It is God who makes covenants.
He told Abram that he would be with him and would be his shield and great reward (Gen 15:1). When Abram asked God what he would give him, and ointed out that he had no child or heir to inherit his possessions, God told hjim that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky or grains of sand on the shore (Gen 15:5). Abram believed God and THIS was credited to him as righteousness (Gen 15:6). Abram was counted righteous before God because he had faith that he would fulfil this promise. Sadly he became impatient and tried to hurry things along a bit - which caused heartache for Sarah, Hagar and Ishmael - but even so, God was faithful. Several years later God repeated the promise to Abram, changed his name and gave him a physical sign of the covenant that he had made with him - circumcision. The covenant was made, and sealed in blood; the cutting of Abram's body.
Years later, God gave his law through Moses and said that he would forgive them their sins against him if they sacrificed animals - shed blood. God gave the law and made the covenants; people responded by shedding blood - sometimes their own.
Centuries later God made a NEW Covenant with his people, which was also to include Gentiles. This time, God shed HIS blood - by sending his Son to die on the cross. Jesus said at the Last Supper that his blood was of the New Covenant. Had the old covenant not been broken, a new one would not have been needed. This new covenant was made through, and centred on, the person of Jesus. Anyone who rejects him - God the Son, the expression of the Father's love (1 John 3:16) - will not have eternal life (John 3:36; 6:40;14:6.) No one can come to the Father except through Jesus. He is the stone which the builders rejected, but the foundation stone on which we build.

The text clearly tells us that there will be better promises. However it doesn’t differentiate or even imply that there will be a “better law”.


Bummer, I guess Romans 2:28-29 doesn't apply to you?
28. For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Or Galatians 3:29?
“And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.”

So because we belong to Christ and are God's children, we are also Jews and Abraham's descendants - that doesn't mean we have to put ourselves under the law which was given to them.
You have just quoted a verse which says that we are Abraham's decendants because we belong to Christ. We, Gentiles are counted as Abraham's descendants though Christ - and like Abraham we have been made righteous because we believe. The law didn't make Abram righteous, his faith in God did.
You seem to be saying that we belong to Christ and are in Christ (absolutely agree), because of this we are Abraham's descendants (agree again) and so because of this we HAVE to obey the law which was given to him (which actually was circimcision and doesn't apply to women anyway)??

Christ has fulfilled the law; the law cannot save and we are in Christ, who has fulfilled the law anyway.

 

[robinvanpersie]

I'm sorry but the bible puts extreme doubt on your assertion as does your treatment of the law as a single unit does also.

lol. No hope. Someday…hopefully

If the law was "GIVEN" then it must not have been in place therefore there was no law like the law given prior to Moses that Abraham would have been a partaker of.

I seriously cannot believe you’re using that as your argument.

A reissue does not = a first introduction.
A outlined, structured, a-z address does not equal the first time ever mentioned.
One would need to be…blinded to believe that “loving God, not bowing down to idols, honoring parents, not giving false testimony, committing adultery, envying, not stealing, were “allowed” before Exodus 20. It’s preposterous.

This and the fact that sin was, is and always will be defined as going against the Law of God.
God punished homosexuality (Gen 13,19), Onan’s spilling of his seed (gen 38), reminded Israel of the Sabbath (ex 16), Joseph knew of the sin of adultery (gen 39), Isaac knew of not marrying Canaanites (gen 28), Abimelech knew about adultery (gen 20), Noah knew about clean and unclean animals and how to properly sacrifice (Gen 8), Abel knew the correct way to offer sacrifices to God (Gen 4)---ALL before Exodus 20.

If you need more let me know. All of this followed/blessed and disobedience/punishment occurred before “the Law” was GIVEN.

 

[robinvanpersie]

What law, though?

In order to properly understand Jeremiah 31, you MUST understand the context, culture, and background to Jeremiah’s writings (echoed in Ezekiel and also in Jeremiah 33).
Even more so you must understand what this word “law” actually means. And unfortunately (for some) you won’t be able to find that in your English translation.

The English word law is automatically taken as a negative and “judgmental” word, when the correct meaning of the Hebrew word Torah is actually ---“instructions and guidelines”.
God’s Instructions and Guidelines are going to be written on the hearts and minds of His people.

Ezekiel 36 goes a step further and shows you what will happen as a result of that.

"Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.”

 

[Sophrosyne]

lol. No hope. Someday…hopefully

I see no reason

I seriously cannot believe you’re using that as your argument.

A reissue does not = a first introduction.
A outlined, structured, a-z address does not equal the first time ever mentioned.
One would need to be…blinded to believe that “loving God, not bowing down to idols, honoring parents, not giving false testimony, committing adultery, envying, not stealing, were “allowed” before Exodus 20. It’s preposterous.

This and the fact that sin was, is and always will be defined as going against the Law of God.
God punished homosexuality (Gen 13,19), Onan’s spilling of his seed (gen 38), reminded Israel of the Sabbath (ex 16), Joseph knew of the sin of adultery (gen 39), Isaac knew of not marrying Canaanites (gen 28), Abimelech knew about adultery (gen 20), Noah knew about clean and unclean animals and how to properly sacrifice (Gen 8), Abel knew the correct way to offer sacrifices to God (Gen 4)---ALL before Exodus 20.

If you need more let me know. All of this followed/blessed and disobedience/punishment occurred before “the Law” was GIVEN.

I see nothing of the Sabbath here.... you are trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat by showing a bunch of rabbits and no hats to begin with. The problem is the hat is your creation and not God's in all of this.

 

[intojoy]

What law, though?

The law that there is only one God, the laws which say they should love God with all their heart and their neighbour as themselves, the law which says that if they have sinned they should atone and offer sacrifices for those sins - or ALL the ceremonial and hygiene laws as given to the Israelites at Sinai?

If it's a NEW Covenant, it's a NEW covenant. The covenant made at Sinai between God and the people he rescued from Israel was broken time and time again; by the people, not by God.

It is God who makes covenants.
He told Abram that he would be with him and would be his shield and great reward (Gen 15:1). When Abram asked God what he would give him, and ointed out that he had no child or heir to inherit his possessions, God told hjim that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the sky or grains of sand on the shore (Gen 15:5). Abram believed God and THIS was credited to him as righteousness (Gen 15:6). Abram was counted righteous before God because he had faith that he would fulfil this promise. Sadly he became impatient and tried to hurry things along a bit - which caused heartache for Sarah, Hagar and Ishmael - but even so, God was faithful. Several years later God repeated the promise to Abram, changed his name and gave him a physical sign of the covenant that he had made with him - circumcision. The covenant was made, and sealed in blood; the cutting of Abram's body.
Years later, God gave his law through Moses and said that he would forgive them their sins against him if they sacrificed animals - shed blood. God gave the law and made the covenants; people responded by shedding blood - sometimes their own.
Centuries later God made a NEW Covenant with his people, which was also to include Gentiles. This time, God shed HIS blood - by sending his Son to die on the cross. Jesus said at the Last Supper that his blood was of the New Covenant. Had the old covenant not been broken, a new one would not have been needed. This new covenant was made through, and centred on, the person of Jesus. Anyone who rejects him - God the Son, the expression of the Father's love (1 John 3:16) - will not have eternal life (John 3:36; 6:40;14:6.) No one can come to the Father except through Jesus. He is the stone which the builders rejected, but the foundation stone on which we build.

So because we belong to Christ and are God's children, we are also Jews and Abraham's descendants - that doesn't mean we have to put ourselves under the law which was given to them.
You have just quoted a verse which says that we are Abraham's decendants because we belong to Christ. We, Gentiles are counted as Abraham's descendants though Christ - and like Abraham we have been made righteous because we believe. The law didn't make Abram righteous, his faith in God did.
You seem to be saying that we belong to Christ and are in Christ (absolutely agree), because of this we are Abraham's descendants (agree again) and so because of this we HAVE to obey the law which was given to him (which actually was circimcision and doesn't apply to women anyway)??

Christ has fulfilled the law; the law cannot save and we are in Christ, who has fulfilled the law anyway.

You're not a Jew because you're a Christian haha

 

[Strong in Him]

You're not a Jew because you're a Christian haha

No. If I, and my family, had been born in Israel we would have Jewish heritage and blood. If I was a Jew who accepted that Yeshua had been the Messiah, I would be a Messianic Jew.

 

[Hizikyah]

What do you want?

The mark of the beast or mark of YAHWEH.

The mark of Yahweh can be found in Scripture: (On a topic this important please take the time to read this, it may be different than what you have heard however it is pure Scripture, if any wish to rufute this please use Scripture and remember this Revelation 12:9, "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan,
who deceives the whole world.")

Exodus 13:9, "And it shall be as a *sign to you upon your hand and as a memorial between your eyes, that Yahweh's Law shall be in your mouth; for with a strong hand Yahweh has brought you out of Egypt."

*Sign is Word #226, Hebrew Dictionary, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, meaning mark, token, sign, consent, flag, evidence of consent.

Exodus 31:13-17, "Speak also to the children of Israyl, saying; Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for they are a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am Yahweh Who sanctifies you, and makes you holy"....16-17, "Therefore the children of Israyl shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the
children of Israyl forever, for in six days Yahweh made the heavens and the earth, and on the Seventh Day He rested and was refreshed."

Ezekiel 20:12, "Moreover, I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am Yahweh Who sanctifies them."

Revelation 14:9-11, "And the third malak followed them, saying with a loud voice: If any man worships the beast and his likeness, and receives his mark in his forehead or upon his hand, The same will drink of the wine of the wrath of Yahweh...........And they have no Sabbath night and day, who worship the beast and his likeness..."

This "sign" is your actions (right hand) which represents strength, what you do with your ability/life and memorial between your eyes Exodus 13:9, that explains the mark of Yahweh says: "memorial between your eyes," what do we remember with that is between our eyes? Our brain, or our thoughts and beliefs.

If you think the Sabbath is only for the Hebrew people and/or gentiles were grafted in during the NT you are Scriptually wrong:

Isayah 56:1-7, "This is what Yahweh says: Keep the judgments, and do justly; for My salvation is near, soon, to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who lays hold on it; who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them; and keeps his hand from doing dany evil. Do not let the son of the Gentile, who has joined himself to Yahweh, speak, saying; Yahweh has utterly separated me from His people. Nor let the eunuch say; Behold, I am a dry tree. For this is what Yahweh says: To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose those things which eplease Me, and hold fast to My covenant: I will give to them, in My House, even within My walls, a place and a Name equal to that of sons and of daughters; I will give them the Name of The Everlasting: YAHWEH; which will not be cut off. Also the sons of the Gentile who join themselves to Yahweh, to serve Him, and to love the Name of Yahweh, to be His servants--everyone who keeps the Sabbaths without polluting; defiling, them and who holds fast to My covenant--I will bring them to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My House of prayer..."

Exodus 12:48-49, "And when a stranger lives among you and wants to sacrifice the Passover to Yahweh, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near, and sacrifice it; and he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. One Law shall be for the nativeborn and for the stranger who dwells among you."

Yahweh told us evil powers would change the Sabbath and Laws through the mouth of the prophet Daniyl:

Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."

Daniel 7:25, "And he shall speak words against the Most High [God] and shall wear out the saints of the Most High and think to change the time [of sacred feasts and holy days] and the law..." AMP

Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants; And it will be: as with the people, so
with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."

The Sabbath change had nothig to do with the Messiah, it came from Constantine at the council of Nicea 321ad and it is based upon SUN god worship (Sol Invictus Mithra), look up Cardinal James Gibbons quotes on the change of the Sabbath. It is the beast that changed it in the minds of the people; Revelation 17:9, "And here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits." Watch this video to see the Scriptual evidence of who the 1st beast is

And upon her head a name was written - YouTube

To enforce this mark of the beast It's not about worshipping on SUNday, it's about NOT WORSHIPPING ON YAHWEH"S SABBATH.They could make the 7th day the only day you can buy or sell, the world will be in a state of chaos at this time anyway so it may be "organic" for what is happening. Not to mention a crakdown on religious people.

Daniyl 8:12, "And a host was given him against the daily (sacrifice is an added word we could just as well add the daily worship) by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and succeeded."

Also Yahshua did not rise on SUNday, watch this video please, if you desire truth. 3 days and 3 nights, and this is Yahweh's calendar and not the Bablonian/Julian calendar. If you truly understand the calendar of the Creator of all that is and you put all the Scriptures togather you will see it is impossible to havea SUNday resurrection.

Resurrection - YouTube

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No. If I, and my family, had been born in Israel we would have Jewish heritage and blood.
If I was a Jew who accepted that Yeshua had been the Messiah, I would be a Messianic Jew.

The "Jews" didn't exist until the birth of Judah in Genesis [ask any Jewish historian]

After the split of Solomon, the House/Kingdom of Judah consisted of 3 tribes: Judah, Benjamin [of which tribe Paul was of] and the priestly tribe of Levi......they continued on with what is called "Judaism" to this very day.

For instance, Abraham was not a "Jew" or even an Israelite, but a Hebrew

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' "

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity.
Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35).
He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking.
They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage. Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.

This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!



.

 

[robinvanpersie]

I see no reason

I see nothing of the Sabbath here.... you are trying to pull a rabbit out of a hat by showing a bunch of rabbits and no hats to begin with. The problem is the hat is your creation and not God's in all of this.

Soph even IF you want to talk about the Sabbath, you'd have to admit that the 4th commandment was "GIVEN" in Exodus 16 BEFORE it was "GIVEN" at Mt. Sinai...

So even in that way--you're argument crumbles.