If we have the Spirit of Truth, why do we lie?

[geetrue]

Carnal Christians do all sorts of things.

Your talking about carnivals, right? I always was leery of that guy who guessed my weight and those milk bottles never did fall over while I was watching them.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Hmmm. “Lying” is a tricky word. Sometimes, in a dispute, both people think they are telling the “truth” even though their conclusions are miles apart. One person “perceives” the facts one way, the other another and both think they are telling the “truth” and the other is lying. In situations like this, you are at a loss if you are in the middle. Only God knows the facts; you only know each person’s perception of the facts.

We do have the Spirit of truth but it is the Spirit of “Truth”, not the Spirit of facts. There is a great difference between “truth” and “fact”. A person may have all the facts and still miss the truth; or a person may not know any of the facts but yet know the truth. Truth is a person; not a system of belief.

Very good point here Jim. Depending on what we are calling a lie could just simply be a misunderstanding. It's best to clarify things with someone when we believe they are lying. From their view point they may not be lying.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Carnal Christians do all sorts of things.

The thing is that when it's blatant and right to your face it's so much more personal. It's almost like they do not own that if they 'stretch the truth' to deceive in any way than it's still not the truth and the same sin in God's eyes.

People know that they are doing it. It is not a mistake, I know they see it as a 'tweaking of the truth' and it's happened so much that I am disgusted by the disgusting way that people carry themselves.

I'm just not sure that I want any type of close relationship with Christians anymore. I asked God about it and I feel he's steering me towards the verse 'Guard your heart, because through it flows life'.

I am going to start making more non-Chrisitan friends though. I mean, I'm not ashamed of Jesus and I can take any poking of fun that anyone would make. The judgement back from Christians is brutal.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I guess it's Scripture rather than people's subjective opinions that is the real reference point.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Very good point here Jim. Depending on what we are calling a lie could just simply be a misunderstanding. It's best to clarify things with someone when we believe they are lying. From their view point they may not be lying.

How would one really go about doing that? You ever catch someone in a lie, a Christian? They are embarrassed, know their sin and not very happy that you know AND they know. Ended a Christian friendship in the last 6 months exactly this way. People do not want to be around people who 'know their dirt', especially Christians. Then you are a constant reminder to them.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

How would one really go about doing that? You ever catch someone in a lie, a Christian? They are embarrassed, know their sin and not very happy that you know AND they know. Ended a Christian friendship in the last 6 months exactly this way. People do not want to be around people who 'know their dirt', especially Christians. Then you are a constant reminder to them.

You talk to them. I've done it many a time. Ended a friendship? Not on my part. I do currently have a good friend where I've caught them in several lies. I know a lot of their dirt and while in some areas I may not fully trust them there are other areas where they have been there when no one else was.

Proverbs 17:17 A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for a time of adversity.
​

You persevere. You be faithful even though they aren't. Don't just drop your friends. How else are they going to experience the love of Jesus. We don't give up on people because they fail. I've failed. I thank God that my friends did not give up on me.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

You talk to them. I've done it many a time. Ended a friendship? Not on my part. I do currently have a good friend where I've caught them in several lies. I know a lot of their dirt and while in some areas I may not fully trust them there are other areas where they have been there when no one else was.

Proverbs 17:17 A friend loves at all times, and a brother is born for a time of adversity.
​

You persevere. You be faithful even though they aren't. Don't just drop your friends. How else are they going to experience the love of Jesus. We don't give up on people because they fail. I've failed. I thank God that my friends did not give up on me.

What value are you giving the term 'friendship' in this thread? Are you talking about a casual church acquaintance that you say Hi to every couple of weeks or someone you talk to on a fairly regular basis?

I have many acquaintances, but in this case i am referring to a friend that you have some kind of relationship with. Maybe a weekly bible study or something.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

I guess I am getting off course, my true reason for starting this thread is to find out more about the early church and fellowship. The kind of fellowship, like a church service where Christians congregate. Are we called to have deeper relationships and friendships which could or would lead to conversation and possible edification in our walk with Christ as part of our fellowship, or is this kind of a separate thing and fellowship is more of a joyous coming together of Christians.

I almost feel guilty having the desire to make friends with non-Christian folk, but then again my terrible experiences have made me not want or desire another deeper relationship with a Christian.

I don't believe Paul necessarily set out to have friendships in Christ in the churches he founded. What about the others called along with or to assist Paul and Peter?

 

[turned around]

Hi,
Psalmist very good word tks.

Grace to you.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

What value are you giving the term 'friendship' in this thread? Are you talking about a casual church acquaintance that you say Hi to every couple of weeks or someone you talk to on a fairly regular basis?

I have many acquaintances, but in this case i am referring to a friend that you have some kind of relationship with. Maybe a weekly bible study or something.

A friend I have a relationship with. I could have written them off but I chose not to.

Even if it's a casual relationship, as far as our part is concerned we be a friend to the best of our ability. If they pull away out of embarrassment or whatever, I still let them know on a fairly regular basis that I'm thinking of them and I care about them. Only after you've done all of your part, do you give up....and then, not really, because you never know when God will bring them back into your life. It's not necessarily easy but it's the Biblical way to do things.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

Do you think we should still do it this way if our heart is not in it and we are just going through the motions and have been unable to fully forgive this person yet?

I know how my heart feels and I don't want to be fake, I know the Lord does want us to operate in truth as well as love.

That's what I struggle with. I don't lie so it comes off on my face exactly what I am thinking/feeling.

 

[Edial]

I guess I am getting off course, my true reason for starting this thread is to find out more about the early church and fellowship. The kind of fellowship, like a church service where Christians congregate. Are we called to have deeper relationships and friendships which could or would lead to conversation and possible edification in our walk with Christ as part of our fellowship, or is this kind of a separate thing and fellowship is more of a joyous coming together of Christians.

I almost feel guilty having the desire to make friends with non-Christian folk, but then again my terrible experiences have made me not want or desire another deeper relationship with a Christian.

I don't believe Paul necessarily set out to have friendships in Christ in the churches he founded. What about the others called along with or to assist Paul and Peter?

In my opinion the church lost a lot of it's appeal, strength and purpose because it minimized the importance of personal friendship between congregants for the sake of worship.

Big mistake.

The Bible says someplace (1John, I believe), if you do not love your brother whom you see how can you claim to love God whom you do not see?

We are called to love each other in a brotherly (family) type of love.

Do we truly believe God wants our worship when he do not attempt learning to love each other?

It is a learning process. Nothing is overnight. It does not work overnight.
It is a process.

The reason you look for friends among the non-believers is because they are often a lot more caring for each other than Christians.
It is to our shame.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Do you think we should still do it this way if our heart is not in it and we are just going through the motions and have been unable to fully forgive this person yet?

I know how my heart feels and I don't want to be fake, I know the Lord does want us to operate in truth as well as love.

That's what I struggle with. I don't lie so it comes off on my face exactly what I am thinking/feeling.

I understand. Don't let hurt keep you from extending the hand of friendship though. Ask God to help you forgive....remember all that you've been forgiven of. Just little efforts here and there.

 

[ToBeBlessed]

In my opinion the church lost a lot of it's appeal, strength and purpose because it minimized the importance of personal friendship between congregants for the sake of worship.

Big mistake.

The Bible says someplace (1John, I believe), if you do not love your brother whom you see how can you claim to love God whom you do not see?

We are called to love each other in a brotherly (family) type of love.

Do we truly believe God wants our worship when he do not attempt learning to love each other?

It is a learning process. Nothing is overnight. It does not work overnight.
It is a process.

The reason you look for friends among the non-believers is because they are often a lot more caring for each other than Christians.
It is to our shame.

I agree. If we started by loving our Christian brothers and sisters than we would have a standard to hold our behavior to other who are not Christians to.

I hope that things change.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

One of the things I really like about the Messianic congregations and we do it in the church I currently attend is we have a pot luck meal after the service. The Messianics call it an "oneg". We all eat together and talk and fellowship. It makes for building friendships. I believe that the early church did this.

In the churches I've always attended before, groups of people would go out to eat afterward but generally while everyone was welcome most people were not there either because they did not know where everyone was going or because they did not have money. It's also cool that when there are special speakers everyone gets to join in fellowship with them, not just the pastors and whoever he wants to invite.