If Gods Law is Perfect, why is it called a curse if you cant keep it perfeclty?

[disciple1]

Absolutely true. I agree and so do the OC believers like King David agree.

Philippians 4:6 though is Paul explaining his life BEFORE Christ.

IOW, obeying God's laws is possible, just not for righteousness or salvation.

It's not possible to obey the law, it was only to lead us to Christ.
Romans chapter 7 verse 8
But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.

 

[Truthfrees]

It's not possible to obey the law, it was only to lead us to Christ.
Romans chapter 7 verse 8
But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.

Absolutely true. This is what the flesh does with the law. Not a pretty picture for sure.

WALK AS CHRIST WALKED
Christ obeyed the law perfectly and now Christ lives in you, so whatever Christ did you can do even greater because HIS Spirit lives in you:

"He who says he abides in Christ ought himself also to walk just as He walked." - 1 John 2:6

"God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." - 2 Corinthians 5:21

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." - Galatians 2:20

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father." - John 14:12

"The Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. " - Romans 8:11-14

"He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world." - 1 John 4:4

"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts." - Romans 6:12


PAUL SAYS OBEY THE RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW
Here's what Paul says about obeying the righteous requirements of the law:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." - Romans 8:1

"That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." - Romans 8:4

"For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel." - Romans 2:12-16

"I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." - Galatians 5:16

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." - Philippians 4:13

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." - Hebrews 4:15-16


JESUS COMMANDS US TO OBEY THE LAW AND TEACH OTHERS TO DO THE SAME
Here's what Jesus says about obeying the law and teaching others to do the same:

"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:19


PAUL TELLS US TO OBEY OTHER LAWS TOO
If Paul tells us to obey man's laws, then surely saying he tells us to not obey God's laws would be a serious misinterpretation of what Paul means. Which is nothing new, because Peter said Paul is hard to understand and people misinterpret his words.

"Paul says some things which are hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." - 2 Peter 3:16

"Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work." - Titus 3:1

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account." - Hebrews 13:17

"And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." - Hebrews 5:9



Here's more NT scriptures on obedience: Acts of the Apostles 5:29-32, Romans 6:16, Colossians 3:20-22

 

[Truthfrees]

REWARDS FOR KEEPING GOD'S LAWS
Jews have unusual amount of blessing in their lives because they love to keep God's laws, which come with rewards. Deuteronomy 28:1-2, 2 Samuel 22:21, Psalms 18:20, Psalms 19:11, Proverbs 13:13, Matthew 6:4, Matthew 6:6, Matthew 6:18, Matthew 10:42, Luke 6:35, 1 Corinthians 3:8, 1 Corinthians 9:17, Colossians 2:18, Hebrews 2:2, Hebrews 11:6, Revelation 22:12, Mark 10:29-30

But, they're still waiting for Messiah to set up His earthly kingdom to enjoy what's included in this FINAL version of God's eternal covenant. Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16

Christians are enjoying some of the benefits of the Messianic aka New covenant NOW. I say some because when Jesus returns He'll fulfill all of the remaining promises of the New covenant, like His kingdom being set up on earth, death being finally defeated, etc. Psalms 146:10, Revelation 11:15, 1 Corinthians 15:26

But because we teach each other to ignore God's laws, we don't have the rewards that come with obedience. Galatians 6:7-8

I've started purposely obeying God's laws, especially HIS Sabbath laws and HIS dietary laws, and I'm seeing rewards NOW for this obedience. Galatians 6:7, Deuteronomy 28:1-2

I KNOW they ARE possible to keep, especially with God's help. When I'm failing at a particular law of God, I ask God to help me and HE DOES. PRAISE GOD. 1 Corinthians 10:13, Philippians 2:13, Philippians 4:13, Hebrews 4:15-16

I don't keep God's Holy Laws to be righteous or be saved. I keep them because they're wise and profitable. God's ways are higher than any of man's ways. I'm blessed by the results of keeping God's laws, even when I don't fully understand why God says to do things a certain way.

EG. There's been studies on weight problems. They've begun to see that following God's dietary laws results in weight normalcy. I've been following God's dietary laws diligently for a few months now and people are commenting on how I'm slimming down and looking good. PRAISE GOD!

EG. I'm resting on the 7th day as God says. I spend it focusing on God and His word. I cut out distractions, business, and busy-ness. My spiritual life and understanding of scripture are rocketing. A simple but awesome reward of obedience.

I started keeping God's laws because God showed me what Jesus said about the law in Matthew 5:17-19. I asked God to help me do what ever it was Jesus did and whatever He meant. God showed me to start with keeping Sabbath, and then later added the dietary laws. I'm now moving onto other laws in the OT. Each one brings me immediate rewards. It's awesome. I'm hooked. It's not a burden. It's all done by God's Spirit in me causing me to WILL and DO HIS good pleasure. Philippians 2:13

I absolutely can NOT do this in the flesh. It won't work. I do it with God, through God's grace-ability. I don't take credit for any of this. God loves me and wants me to find out first hand what our Jewish law-keeping brothers have known for 3500 years. I don't want to miss out on anything good from God. Paul's words about law are about keeping it in the flesh for righteousness sake or for salvation. NOT by the SPIRIT of GOD for wisdom sake and holy living pleasing to God. My Jewish friends don't keep the law in the flesh either. Each Sabbath they pray for God to help them keep His laws. Even they ask God's help to keep the laws. The prayers they pray come from Psalms. David knew how to live by the SPIRIT of GOD. PSALMS 51 David knew first hand the dangers of living by the flesh.

Jesus, Peter, Paul tell us to stop sinning. Sinning is breaking God's laws. God's laws are in effect today, written in scripture and on our hearts and minds. Matthew 5:17-19, John 5:14, John 8:11, 1 Corinthians 6:18, 1 Corinthians 10:14, 1 Timothy 6:10-11, 2 Timothy 2:22, 1 Peter 4:1, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:16, Jeremiah 31:31

 

[Wordkeeper]

Absolutely true. I agree and so do the OC believers like King David agree.Philippians 4:6 though is Paul explaining his life BEFORE Christ.IOW, obeying God's laws is possible, just not for righteousness or salvation.

You are using Philippians 4:6 to prove it is possible to observe the law properly.

The point is that the law could NOT be observed properly. If you put yourself under the covenant of the law, you had to obey ALL the mitzvot. Since it is impossible to obey ALL the mitzvot, because of the body of death, although your mind desired to be obedient, you are handicapped by the body of death. That was Paul's observation in Romans 7. Under the old covenant, you could NOT be the blessing to the world, the benefit promised to Abraham. However you could escape God's wrath, be justified, found righteous, by humbling yourself:


Luke 18: 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


You realise of course, that if the Pharisee had been loyal to God, believed Moses' teaching that ALL the law had to be observed, he would have been humbled and would have cried out for mercy and THEN be justified, don't you? Instead he observed tithing and fasting and left out all the weightier requirements of the law, justice, mercy and love for God. Because he rationalised that since the promise to Abraham's seed was unconditional, all he had to do was to prove he was Abraham's seed, had Abraham as his father, by tithing and fasting. He forgot to read the fine print: it said Seed, not seeds! The promise was to Christ, who was the righteousness of God. Israel was not justified because she tried to use a righteousness of her own, rather than depend on God's work, the righteousness of God, the Cross.


Summary
It never was possible to observe the law properly. Justification was by confessing that a person had FAILED in observing the law properly.

 

[Truthfrees]

You are using Philippians 4:6 to prove it is possible to observe the law properly.

The point is that the law could NOT be observed properly. If you put yourself under the covenant of the law, you had to obey ALL the mitzvot. Since it is impossible to obey ALL the mitzvot, because of the body of death, although your mind desired to be obedient, you are handicapped by the body of death. That was Paul's observation in Romans 7. Under the old covenant, you could NOT be the blessing to the world, the benefit promised to Abraham. However you could escape God's wrath, be justified, found righteous, by humbling yourself:


Luke 18: 13“But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14“I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


You realise of course, that if the Pharisee had been loyal to God, believed Moses' teaching that ALL the law had to be observed, he would have been humbled and would have cried out for mercy and THEN be justified, don't you? Instead he observed tithing and fasting and left out all the weightier requirements of the law, justice, mercy and love for God. Because he rationalised that since the promise to Abraham's seed was unconditional, all he had to do was to prove he was Abraham's seed, had Abraham as his father, by tithing and fasting. He forgot to read the fine print: it said Seed, not seeds! The promise was to Christ, who was the righteousness of God. Israel was not justified because she tried to use a righteousness of her own, rather than depend on God's work, the righteousness of God, the Cross.


Summary
It never was possible to observe the law properly. Justification was by confessing that a person had FAILED in observing the law properly.

All true if we confine the discussion to observing the law for righteousness or salvation.

The purpose for the law was NEVER righteousness or salvation though. There's no scripture that says God gave the Mosaic laws for salvation or for right standing with God. They were given as a right way to live on planet earth.

God's laws are still the wisest words on planet earth on how we humans should live toward God and to each other. Man has never come up with anything better, even though he's tried.

If you confine God's laws to this exact purpose, just as our Jewish brothers have been doing, you'll find a treasure trove of unqualified and unequaled wisdom contained in God's laws.

If you ignore God's laws for whatever theological reasons you may have, you'll miss out on some pretty awesome stuff.

Philippians 3:6 is what Paul used about himself. Here it is in context:

PHILIPPIANS 3:2-11
We are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

WHAT EXACT LAWS ARE YOU SAYING ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP?

Don't have any gods or idols besides the Lord God Almighty?

Don't murder?

Don't steal?

Don't use dishonest scales?

Don't touch dead bodies and then mingle in community?

Don't mingle in community when you have leprosy?

Honor your parents?

Don't commit adultery?

Love God with all your heart?

Love your neighbor as yourself?

Tithe?

Circumcision?

Don't eat carnivores or scavengers or road kill or animals who died?

Take a shovel with you to bury your excrement. Don't leave it lying around in camp or even outside camp?

IS THERE ANYTHING IN GOD'S LAWS THAT ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP?

I can't see anything.

This is a theological straw man we Christians have been teaching each other since the days of Constantine.

Before Constantine, believers were in Synagogue worshipping together as brothers.

Read Acts and see how Paul, Peter, James, new Gentile converts, everyone gathered in Synagogue on the Sabbath and in homes the rest of the week.

Now if you agree with Paul that keeping God's laws in the flesh, or for salvation is impossible, then I agree with you 1000%.

 

[Wordkeeper]

All true if we confine the discussion to observing the law for righteousness or salvation.

The purpose for the law was NEVER righteousness or salvation though. There's no scripture that says God gave the Mosaic laws for salvation or for right standing with God. They were given as a right way to live on planet earth.

God's laws are still the wisest words on planet earth on how we humans should live toward God and to each other. Man has never come up with anything better, even though he's tried.

If you confine God's laws to this exact purpose, just as our Jewish brothers have been doing, you'll find a treasure trove of unqualified and unequaled wisdom contained in God's laws.

If you ignore God's laws for whatever theological reasons you may have, you'll miss out on some pretty awesome stuff.

Philippians 3:6 is what Paul used about himself. Here it is in context:

PHILIPPIANS 3:2-11
We are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

WHAT EXACT LAWS ARE YOU SAYING ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP?

Don't have any gods or idols besides the Lord God Almighty?

Don't murder?

Don't steal?

Don't use dishonest scales?

Don't touch dead bodies and then mingle in community?

Don't mingle in community when you have leprosy?

Honor your parents?

Don't commit adultery?

Love God with all your heart?

Love your neighbor as yourself?

Tithe?

Circumcision?

Don't eat carnivores or scavengers or road kill or animals who died?

Take a shovel with you to bury your excrement. Don't leave it lying around in camp or even outside camp?

IS THERE ANYTHING IN GOD'S LAWS THAT ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP?

I can't see anything.

This is a theological straw man we Christians have been teaching each other since the days of Constantine.

Before Constantine, believers were in Synagogue worshipping together as brothers.

Read Acts and see how Paul, Peter, James, new Gentile converts, everyone gathered in Synagogue on the Sabbath and in homes the rest of the week.

Now if you agree with Paul that keeping God's laws in the flesh, or for salvation is impossible, then I agree with you 1000%.

Your post claims that the law was never given for the purpose of salvation. Absolutely wrong. The Scripture that says God gave the Mosaic laws for salvation or for right standing with God is:

Romans 2:13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

You may not have understood my previous post so here is the explanation again. The law was given to lead you safely to God, looked after you till God appeared, just like the Greek pedagogos, babysitter, led the child safely to his guardians, where he would have all the rights of a family member. How did the law do it? By bringing you to your knees. Why was the Pharisee not bright to his knees? Dude, he was NOT observing the law. He was observing TRADITION, customs of men, the false understanding that God never did mean that ALL the law had to be obeyed, (that was impossible, they reasoned, as do your Jewish brothers do, even today, rationalizing that since it was impossible to be perfect, God never required it!) both tithing mint and cummin, as well as observing justice, mercy and loyalty to God. They should have observed the important requirements of God without neglecting the less important ones.

The exact law I am SAYING IS IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP IS THE LAW TO OBSERVE ALL THE LAW PERFECTLY:


James 2:10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.


In addition to these major misunderstandings of the text, when you create a choice of either

1 observing the law for salvation

2 observing the law to live right on this planet

You are creating a false dilemma. Living right on this planet is the only way to be saved, whether Jew or Gentile.

Romans 2:12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Our problem is the body of death. It can't live right. It required Christ to come and make the tree good. Good fruit is only borne by making the tree good.

Romans 8:13But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live.

Which is why Christ was sent, to give gifts, grace, the promise of the Spirit, because law could only protect, not give life:

Galatians 3:14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

 

[Cribstyl]

All true if we confine the discussion to observing the law for righteousness or salvation.

The purpose for the law was NEVER righteousness or salvation though. There's no scripture that says God gave the Mosaic laws for salvation or for right standing with God. They were given as a right way to live on planet earth.

God's laws are still the wisest words on planet earth on how we humans should live toward God and to each other. Man has never come up with anything better, even though he's tried.

If you confine God's laws to this exact purpose, just as our Jewish brothers have been doing, you'll find a treasure trove of unqualified and unequaled wisdom contained in God's laws.

If you ignore God's laws for whatever theological reasons you may have, you'll miss out on some pretty awesome stuff.

Philippians 3:6 is what Paul used about himself. Here it is in context:

PHILIPPIANS 3:2-11
We are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so:5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

WHAT EXACT LAWS ARE YOU SAYING ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP?

Don't have any gods or idols besides the Lord God Almighty?

Don't murder?

Don't steal?

Don't use dishonest scales?

Don't touch dead bodies and then mingle in community?

Don't mingle in community when you have leprosy?

Honor your parents?

Don't commit adultery?

Love God with all your heart?

Love your neighbor as yourself?

Tithe?

Circumcision?

Don't eat carnivores or scavengers or road kill or animals who died?

Take a shovel with you to bury your excrement. Don't leave it lying around in camp or even outside camp?

IS THERE ANYTHING IN GOD'S LAWS THAT ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP?

I can't see anything.

This is a theological straw man we Christians have been teaching each other since the days of Constantine.

Before Constantine, believers were in Synagogue worshipping together as brothers.

Read Acts and see how Paul, Peter, James, new Gentile converts, everyone gathered in Synagogue on the Sabbath and in homes the rest of the week.

Now if you agree with Paul that keeping God's laws in the flesh, or for salvation is impossible, then I agree with you 1000%.

How could you be so wrong about the purpose of the law?
Here's is what Moses said;
Deu 6:25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

Here is what Paul said about it;
Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above)
The conversation about keeping the commandments may seem honorable but God Had promised a better way to be declared righteous, and that fact was written in the law and in the prophets.

Rom 3:21 ¶ But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

 

[disciple1]

Absolutely true. This is what the flesh does with the law. Not a pretty picture for sure.

WALK AS CHRIST WALKED
Christ obeyed the law perfectly and now Christ lives in you, so whatever Christ did you can do even greater because HIS Spirit lives in you:

"He who says he abides in Christ ought himself also to walk just as He walked." - 1 John 2:6

"God made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." - 2 Corinthians 5:21

"I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." - Galatians 2:20

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father." - John 14:12

"The Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. " - Romans 8:11-14

"He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world." - 1 John 4:4

"Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts." - Romans 6:12


PAUL SAYS OBEY THE RIGHTEOUS REQUIREMENTS OF THE LAW
Here's what Paul says about obeying the righteous requirements of the law:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." - Romans 8:1

"That the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." - Romans 8:4

"For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified;14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel." - Romans 2:12-16

"I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." - Galatians 5:16

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." - Philippians 4:13

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need." - Hebrews 4:15-16


JESUS COMMANDS US TO OBEY THE LAW AND TEACH OTHERS TO DO THE SAME
Here's what Jesus says about obeying the law and teaching others to do the same:

"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:19


PAUL TELLS US TO OBEY OTHER LAWS TOO
If Paul tells us to obey man's laws, then surely saying he tells us to not obey God's laws would be a serious misinterpretation of what Paul means. Which is nothing new, because Peter said Paul is hard to understand and people misinterpret his words.

"Paul says some things which are hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." - 2 Peter 3:16

"Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work." - Titus 3:1

"Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account." - Hebrews 13:17

"And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." - Hebrews 5:9



Here's more NT scriptures on obedience: Acts of the Apostles 5:29-32, Romans 6:16, Colossians 3:20-22

Then why do you sin.
Matthew chapter 21

32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness,27 and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors28 and the prostitutes29 did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent30 and believe him.
Luke chapter 3

10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.

11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

 

[Truthfrees]

Hi Cribstyl and Wordkeeper,

2 KINDS OF RIGHTEOUS IN SCRIPTURE
I'll get to that in a minute. But first, I do know what you're talking about because I was raised on the same understanding of Paul's words as you were, BUT that way of interpreting Paul's words glaringly contradicts Jesus' words. Jesus is God. His words trump everyone else's words. Scripture must be interpreted through Jesus words. There's no way around it. RED words win.

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:18-19

If Jesus says the law hasn't passed away and won't pass away before heaven and earth does, then you have to take this seriously.

You CAN keep the law faultlessly, especially through Christ. Paul did it before he met Christ. It's not hard to live a righteous life with God's help.

"I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4-6

What is righteousness that is IN the law?

Is this salvation BY the law? NO. This is living holy. Holy enough to be saved by your own good works or law keeping? NO.

To be righteous enough to be SAVED by your own good works or good law keeping has ALWAYS been impossible.

David and the OC believers knew this awesome truth:

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered. 2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit." - Psalms 32:1-2

IF you can understand the 2 kinds of righteousness, you can begin to properly understand Paul. Until then, you'll think the law has no practical purpose other than to prove to be impossible to keep.

I don't believe that anymore. I personally know many law keepers. They're doing it. I'm learning to do it. It's not hard. It's awesomely rewarding.

NONE of us are doing it to be saved. ALL of us are doing it because we love God.

"If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever." - John 14:15-16

Whose commandments? How many commandments are there? Jesus always quoted the OC. He said nothing new or different than the OC.

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works." - John 14:10

Jesus and the Apostles, including Paul quoted the OC, taught from the OC, endorsed the OC. See this chart with 300 scriptures to see what I'm talking about: http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

 

[Truthfrees]

Then why do you sin.
Matthew chapter 21



32 For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness,27 and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors28 and the prostitutes29 did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent30 and believe him.
Luke chapter 3

10 “What should we do then?” the crowd asked.

11 John answered, “Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same.”

Great question.

Herein lies the answer.

Paul said 2 things about himself that look contradictory. Tell me how would you reconcile this scriptural dichotomy?

"I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4-6

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief." - 1 Timothy 1:15

 

[Steeno7]

Hi Cribstyl and Wordkeeper,

2 KINDS OF RIGHTEOUS IN SCRIPTURE
I'll get to that in a minute. But first, I do know what you're talking about because I was raised on the same understanding of Paul's words as you were, BUT that way of interpreting Paul's words glaringly contradicts Jesus' words. Jesus is God. His words trump everyone else's words. Scripture must be interpreted through Jesus words. There's no way around it.

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:18-19

If Jesus says the law hasn't passed away and won't pass away before heaven and earth does, then you have to take this seriously.

You CAN keep the law faultlessly, especially through Christ. Paul did it before he met Christ. It's not hard to live a righteous life with God's help.

"I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4-6

What is righteousness that is IN the law?

Is this salvation BY the law? NO. This is living holy. Holy enough to be saved by your own good works or law keeping? NO.

To be righteous enough to be SAVED by your own good works or good law keeping has ALWAYS been impossible.

David and the OC believers knew this awesome truth:

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered. 2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit." - Psalms 32:1-2

IF you can understand the 2 kinds of righteousness, you can begin to properly understand Paul. Until then, you'll think the law has no practical purpose other than to prove to be impossible to keep.

I don't believe that anymore. I personally know many law keepers. They're doing it. I'm learning to do it. It's not hard. It's awesomely rewarding.

NONE of us are doing it to be saved. ALL of us are doing it because we love God.

"If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever." - John 14:15-16

Whose commandments? How many commandments are there? Jesus always quoted the OC. He said nothing new or different than the OC.

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works." - John 14:10

Jesus and the Apostles, including Paul quoted the OC, taught from the OC, endorsed the OC. See this chart with 300 scriptures to see what I'm talking about: http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

Truthfrees; "I personally know many law keepers. They're doing it. I'm learning to do it. It's not hard. It's awesomely rewarding."

You personally know many who never fall short of the Law's demands??

 

[disciple1]

Great question.

Herein lies the answer.

Paul said 2 things about himself that look contradictory. Tell me how you would reconcile this scriptural dichotomy?

"I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4-6

"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world." - 1 Timothy 1:15

Christ is the only human that never sinned look at this.
1 john chapter 1 verse 8
If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.
James chapter 2 verse 10
If anyone keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point their guilty of breaking all of it.
Romans chapter 2
2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

 

[Steeno7]

Hi Cribstyl and Wordkeeper,

2 KINDS OF RIGHTEOUS IN SCRIPTURE
I'll get to that in a minute. But first, I do know what you're talking about because I was raised on the same understanding of Paul's words as you were, BUT that way of interpreting Paul's words glaringly contradicts Jesus' words. Jesus is God. His words trump everyone else's words. Scripture must be interpreted through Jesus words. There's no way around it. RED words win.

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:18-19

If Jesus says the law hasn't passed away and won't pass away before heaven and earth does, then you have to take this seriously.

You CAN keep the law faultlessly, especially through Christ. Paul did it before he met Christ. It's not hard to live a righteous life with God's help.

"I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4-6

What is righteousness that is IN the law?

Is this salvation BY the law? NO. This is living holy. Holy enough to be saved by your own good works or law keeping? NO.

To be righteous enough to be SAVED by your own good works or good law keeping has ALWAYS been impossible.

David and the OC believers knew this awesome truth:

"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered. 2 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit." - Psalms 32:1-2

IF you can understand the 2 kinds of righteousness, you can begin to properly understand Paul. Until then, you'll think the law has no practical purpose other than to prove to be impossible to keep.

I don't believe that anymore. I personally know many law keepers. They're doing it. I'm learning to do it. It's not hard. It's awesomely rewarding.

NONE of us are doing it to be saved. ALL of us are doing it because we love God.

"If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever." - John 14:15-16

Whose commandments? How many commandments are there? Jesus always quoted the OC. He said nothing new or different than the OC.

"Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works." - John 14:10

Jesus and the Apostles, including Paul quoted the OC, taught from the OC, endorsed the OC. See this chart with 300 scriptures to see what I'm talking about: http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

Truthfrees; "Jesus always quoted the OC. He said nothing new or different than the OC."

Ummmm, no. Not even close.

 

[Truthfrees]

Can anyone answer this question:

WHAT EXACT LAWS ARE YOU SAYING ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP?

Don't have any gods or idols besides the Lord God Almighty?

Don't murder?

Don't steal?

Don't use dishonest scales?

Don't touch dead bodies and then mingle in community?

Don't mingle in community when you have leprosy?

Honor your parents?

Don't commit adultery?

Love God with all your heart?

Love your neighbor as yourself?

Tithe?

Circumcision?

Don't eat carnivores or scavengers or road kill or animals who died?

Take a shovel with you to bury your excrement. Don't leave it lying around in camp or even outside camp?

IS THERE ANYTHING IN GOD'S LAWS THAT ARE IMPOSSIBLE TO KEEP?

I can't see anything.

 

[Truthfrees]

Truthfrees; "Jesus always quoted the OC. He said nothing new or different than the OC."

Ummmm, no. Not even close.

Can you give even 1 example?

 

[Truthfrees]

Christ is the only human that never sinned look at this.
1 john chapter 1 verse 8
If anyone claims to be without sin they deceive themselves and the truth is not in them.
James chapter 2 verse 10
If anyone keeps the whole law yet stumbles at just one point their guilty of breaking all of it.
Romans chapter 2
2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

Awesome. I agree.

So why did Paul say this about the lifestyle he led before he met Christ:

"I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4-6

 

[Steeno7]

Can you give even 1 example?

Sure, the new commandment He gave to Christians.

 

[disciple1]

Awesome. I agree.

So why did Paul say this about the lifestyle he led before he met Christ:

"I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4-6

I think for some reason you aren't understanding the bible.
Romans chapter 7 verse 4
So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

 

[Truthfrees]

Truthfrees; "I personally know many law keepers. They're doing it. I'm learning to do it. It's not hard. It's awesomely rewarding."

You personally know many who never fall short of the Law's demands??

I know people who personally do what Paul said he was able to do before he met Christ:

"I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4-6

They do it with God's help. It's not hard.

There's no scripture about falling short of the law's demands.

IT's best to quote scripture exactly. You'll find it easier to do as God says if you follow HIS words exactly.

When we give OUR version of what we think scripture says, it gets a little muddled and misses God's true intent.

This is what has happened to the understanding of Paul's words.

We've muddled it very badly and have come up with something God never meant.

 

[Truthfrees]

Sure, the new commandment He gave to Christians.

Can you quote a scripture so we can examine what Jesus said word by word?

And please remember Jesus said He came only for the lost sheep of Israel, so He never spoke to Christians. He spoke to His own people Israel. Matthew 15:24

Israel is who we're grafted into. Romans 11:24, Ephesians 2:12