IDF May Not Have Caused Kana Deaths
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soblessed53
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- Sep 4, 2005
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Kebisoni
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I consider the US press to practically be the Israeli press - find a reliable source outside either and I might give this story some credibility.
Israel first admitted to the bombing - and is now denying it. Doesn't that seem odd to you?
After Qana, Israel first said there would be a 48 hour ceasefire to let through humanitarian aid - and then within 12 hours was bombing again - and had failed to let any aid agencies have safe passage. Journalists gave what little water they had to shell shocked and starving old people who were sheltering in ruins. Don't we - the international community - have a responsibility to help people like that?
So, given both of those events, Israel appear pretty good at changing the story at the moment. I think both sides are feeding the media propoganda and PR at the moment to try and make them look better. I think we need to be very careful about the truth - but so far I think there is enough evidence to say that Qana is the result of Israeli bombing.
The video of the trucks pulling in and rockets being fired was taken two days before the bombing - not on the day of the bombing itself - by which time they could well have been gone. And rockets being fired next to a building is no excuse to bomb the building when you have no idea who is within it. According to initial investigations from Human Rights Watch International, this is a war crime. The UN has already commented that it feels the current action breaks international law and Israel is not taking enough care to seperate terrorists and civilians. And yes, that is hard - but just because it is hard does not mean they do not have a duty of care. Perhaps it is beginning to dawn that you can not fight terrorists with conventional war - it is too easy for them to hide, to easy for you to kill innocents, which makes it too easy for them recruit even more terrorists and so the cycle continues. What is happening now is collective punishment for the crimes of a small faction - on a country that was seen as a stablising force in the region - a democracy and friend of the West....
What are we doing to our "friends"?
And doesn't the Bible tell us to love and bless our enemies? To pray for those who persecute us?
I also strongly oppose all violence against Israel - and understand their frustration and fear - they have a right to exist and a right to the land given in 1948.
I am pro-Israeli who considers the current action morally wrong and indefensible.
Israel first admitted to the bombing - and is now denying it. Doesn't that seem odd to you?
After Qana, Israel first said there would be a 48 hour ceasefire to let through humanitarian aid - and then within 12 hours was bombing again - and had failed to let any aid agencies have safe passage. Journalists gave what little water they had to shell shocked and starving old people who were sheltering in ruins. Don't we - the international community - have a responsibility to help people like that?
So, given both of those events, Israel appear pretty good at changing the story at the moment. I think both sides are feeding the media propoganda and PR at the moment to try and make them look better. I think we need to be very careful about the truth - but so far I think there is enough evidence to say that Qana is the result of Israeli bombing.
The video of the trucks pulling in and rockets being fired was taken two days before the bombing - not on the day of the bombing itself - by which time they could well have been gone. And rockets being fired next to a building is no excuse to bomb the building when you have no idea who is within it. According to initial investigations from Human Rights Watch International, this is a war crime. The UN has already commented that it feels the current action breaks international law and Israel is not taking enough care to seperate terrorists and civilians. And yes, that is hard - but just because it is hard does not mean they do not have a duty of care. Perhaps it is beginning to dawn that you can not fight terrorists with conventional war - it is too easy for them to hide, to easy for you to kill innocents, which makes it too easy for them recruit even more terrorists and so the cycle continues. What is happening now is collective punishment for the crimes of a small faction - on a country that was seen as a stablising force in the region - a democracy and friend of the West....
What are we doing to our "friends"?
And doesn't the Bible tell us to love and bless our enemies? To pray for those who persecute us?
I also strongly oppose all violence against Israel - and understand their frustration and fear - they have a right to exist and a right to the land given in 1948.
I am pro-Israeli who considers the current action morally wrong and indefensible.
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hiplove79 said:
I don't know where you're getting your sources, but like the first story that is innaccurate. There were men in the building, in fact one man's wife dragged him out to safety.
This is just another reckless mistake on the part of IDF. They can make all the excuses they want, but the blame rests solely on their itchy trigger finger.
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Poke
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The claim that Israel didn't cause the building to fall is falling apart. The bomb that killed those civilians has been identified as a US-made GBU-28 multi-ton, laser guided bomb. Further, the was no evidence of Hezbollah activity in the area at the time.
The zionist psychopaths who have justified their lack of compassion that innocents have been killed on the grounds that Hezbollah demolished the building are losing their excuses.
The zionist psychopaths who have justified their lack of compassion that innocents have been killed on the grounds that Hezbollah demolished the building are losing their excuses.
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Jonathan David
Revolutionary Dancer
Kebisoni said:
Great post... I agree with you completely. Israel's shifting story does appear to be in response to the bad PR from an event that is too similar to '96..... they don't want to be forced into a ceasefire so they have to deflect attention and suggest that Hezbollah is responsible
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Kebisoni said:
Again, they did not deny it. They are admitting that they hit the building, what they are saying is they are not sure it was their strike that brought it down. They are just suspicious, that was the reason for the investigation. It does seem kinda weird for a building to fall 7 hours after it has been hit. Not saying it's not possible, just saying it's odd.
Kebisoni said:
I agree with this statement. Even though I support Israel, I can see how this can bring about fresh new recruits into Hezbollah. While Israel can help with the rebuilding process afterwards, you can't rebuild a life that was lossed.
And I agree, fighting terrorists with a conventional war has extreme risks, as we all are seeing. If it was a military and not terrorists, it would be easier to strike, you would have a better idea of their location and weaponary. Also soldiers would not use human shields.
This is indeed a very tricky and messy situtation. But then the question most come up. How else is one supposed to fight terrorists?
Kebisoni said:
Yes the Bible does. But also, according to James 4:1-2, the causes of war are greed and selfishness, as long as these emotions are in the world, there will be wars. Also in Romans 12:18 it says, "If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Notice the big if, God wants us to be peaceful, but He realizes that sometimes peace is no longer an option. But peace should always be the first option. Because on of God's commandents does state that Thou shall not murder. But he also states in Ecclesiastes 3:8 even though there is a time for war, there is a time for peace. In Romans 13:4, it states, "For he is Gods servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is Gods servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer." Here it is talking about how God has authorized governments to enforce law and punish evildoers. Until the second coming of Jesus Christ, there will be no permanent peace. Instead it will be wars and rumors of wars.
While I don't like this current war or any wars for that matter, I understand the reason for it. Can I say that Israel is making all the right military choices? I don't know. I'm sure there is a lot going on behind the scenes that we don't know about. If Israel was the one responsible for the Qana attack, I'm sure they had a good reason for hitting that building. Hezbollah was in that area, whether they were there that very day, I don't know. But since Israel is trying to stop Hezbollah from attacking, it would only make sense to destroy an area where they had launched rockets. Israel has no desire to kill innocent civilians, they are not terrorists as some would like to believe.
And your right, we should pray, especially during these times. 1 Timothy 2:1-2, I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. Matthew 5:44, pray for our enemies, pray that they have a change of heart. Also we need to support our leaders, Romans 13:1, "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." Since the beginning of this war, I have prayed everyday for the minium of civilian casualities. But most in importantly we need to trust in the Lord,Psalm 27:1-3, "The Lord is my light and my salvation whom shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold of my life of whom shall I be afraid? Though an army besiege me, my heart will not fear; though war break out against me, even then will I be confident."Psalm 20:7, "Some nations boast of armies and weaponry; but we trust in the Lord our God."
Kebisoni said:
Indeed they do.
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Jonathan David
Revolutionary Dancer
Kebisoni said:
hiplove79 said:
But let's be honest about it... like the Americas, Israel is just another state built on disregard for indigenous people, broken promises and stolen land. Israel's "right to exist" derives from the status quo, not from any defensible legal position... mind you, that status quo has a practical reality, and Israel is there, in some shape or form, to stay.
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Quijote said:
I've been busy the last couple of days and haven't been keeping up with the news. Later I will see if I can find anything,. If I find something, I'll post it.
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Foolish_Fool said:
If you are reffering to the story where Israel said it may not be responible for the attack? If you are, that story was very accurate. That story was on national news my friend, I just happened to post it here a couple of hours before it was shown on air. Again the IDF did not say they did not hit the building in Qana, they said they were not sure if it was their strike that brought it down. That is why they are having investigation. I hope that's the last time I have to repeat that.
Anyway, what do you mean when you say men? Like I already had said, there were elderly men there. I believe, and I just going off of memory so don't quote me on this, there were 12 women and 37 children. There was a total of 60-65 people. So you that leaves you with 11-14 more people, but don't forget some of those have to be elderly men. Ya gotta link to back up your story?
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Talmidah said:
I don't see anyone around here defending the murder of children for being alone with someone of the opposite sex. But, I see plenty of people defending murderous behavior of Israel which results in the frequent deaths of children.
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Borealis
Catholic Homeschool Dad
The Qana tragedy is reminding me of two stories: Jena and Rathergate.
The Jena story was rife with inconsistencies, exaggerations, and outright lies. When these lies were revealed, the mainstream media refused to admit they had been duped by the Palestinians and their neighbours. As more and more evidence came out that they had been lied to, they let the story just die away.
Then there was Rathergate, where the media (primarily CBS, of course) allowed themselves to be led by a totally unreliable witness into publishing fabricated evidence as fact, giving us the memorable 'fake but accurate' standard for news reporting.
Qana has elements of both. Outright lies from Hezbollah, who are now known to have driven in refrigerated trucks before they allowed the press access to the scene, not to mention the strange question of how one child got photographed several times in different situations (first being in the ambulance, then being put into the ambulance, and then being brought to the same ambulance, all by the same rescue worker).
And of course, the 'fake but accurate' message, in which even if Israel proves to have not been responsible for the total demolition of the building and at least half of the deaths, they're still evil and terrible and responsible for all the carnage in the Middle East for the past 58 years.
BTW, why is it that people who think that the World Trade Centre buildings were intentionally blown up by the Bush Administraiton after the fact can't accept that this building might have been intentionally blown up after the fact by Hezbollah?
The Jena story was rife with inconsistencies, exaggerations, and outright lies. When these lies were revealed, the mainstream media refused to admit they had been duped by the Palestinians and their neighbours. As more and more evidence came out that they had been lied to, they let the story just die away.
Then there was Rathergate, where the media (primarily CBS, of course) allowed themselves to be led by a totally unreliable witness into publishing fabricated evidence as fact, giving us the memorable 'fake but accurate' standard for news reporting.
Qana has elements of both. Outright lies from Hezbollah, who are now known to have driven in refrigerated trucks before they allowed the press access to the scene, not to mention the strange question of how one child got photographed several times in different situations (first being in the ambulance, then being put into the ambulance, and then being brought to the same ambulance, all by the same rescue worker).
And of course, the 'fake but accurate' message, in which even if Israel proves to have not been responsible for the total demolition of the building and at least half of the deaths, they're still evil and terrible and responsible for all the carnage in the Middle East for the past 58 years.
BTW, why is it that people who think that the World Trade Centre buildings were intentionally blown up by the Bush Administraiton after the fact can't accept that this building might have been intentionally blown up after the fact by Hezbollah?
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Borealis said:
The US openly admits to planting stories in the Iraqi media. These stories are often lies. Many of the stories Americans know from Iraq are US-made lies. For example, the famous pulling down of Saddam's statue was presented as a spontaneous act of Iraqis, but it was really fully US staged. It wasn't until this lie was thoroughly exposed that the US finally admitted it was a psy-op.
As long as you're going to concern yourself with the truth, let's see you admit these three things:
1) The two Israeli soldiers that were captured were in Lebanon, not Israel, even though the media originally and dutifully reported this as a cross border raid into Israel.
2) This war where many hundreds of already died, is grossly disproportionate a response to two captured soldiers, soldiers that could easily have been retrieved without a war. In other words, Israel is using this as a pretext and so the blame of starting the war belongs with Israel.
3) The US and Israel are not above lying to gain advantage in war.
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