I would really enjoy some advice

[Curiousity]

I’m on this forum to look for some answers to a few questions I have that involve religion and more importantly, Christian religion. Before I start you need to know where I come from. I was born to two Christian parents and for the most part grew up in a Christian home. I went to Sunday school when I was in grade school and I went through confirmation in middle school. I’ve spent my entire life in southern Indiana and grew up in an environment that was predominately Christian outside of my home.
Right now, I’d be lying to you if I said I was still a Christian. I’m not anything right now. I don’t like putting a name on what I believe in because that just gets you into trouble. I listen to science more than faith. I believe in Evolution and not Creationism. I don’t turn to the bible for “guidance” or “wisdom”. I don’t believe in hell. But I do see the value the bible has in teaching morals and ethics to a degree.
If you’re still reading this and are offended then I’m sorry. To offend anyone is not why I’m here. What I’m here for are answers to some questions I can’t just ask out in the open. I’ve grown up in a Christian society and I am somehow different from everyone else around me. The majority of the Christian people (my age or otherwise) aren’t the Flanders (from Simpsons). A decent chunk of the Christians and Catholics that I’ve met in my life time aren’t the peace loving, gentle speaking, caring individuals you might think of as religious people. They seem angrier to me. They HATE. More importantly they hate a lot. And it’s not just Indiana. I’ve been all over the country and still run into these religious types.
I’m being completely honest here. These angry, not-quite-fire-and brimstone people are mostly women or girls between the ages of 13 and 30. I have found my fare share of men like this as well; it just seems to be more likely that I find women like this. These hateful sounding individuals seem to talk more about what the bible says you shouldn’t do instead of what it says you should. “Hate” might be too extreme of a word to use; the delicate way of putting things is to say they extremely disagree with people who are homosexual or of another religion. When I was in bible school I was taught to “love thy neighbor” and that everyone was created equal. I don’t remember the bible lesson saying “love thy neighbor…unless they are gay, Hebrew, Wiccan, Buddhist, Hindu..etc.”
Where is this hate coming from?
Why does it seem to drive the faith of these people more than the love and acceptance the bible teaches?
This is America; it says “All men are created Equal” on one of the greatest documents ever written in all of recorded history.
Why are homosexuals who are just as much of an American as you or me not allowed the same rights as everyone else?
Please, I want your two cents on all of this. I need to know why the stereotype of the pleasant good upstanding religious person is now the stereotype of the angry bible-thumping religious person.

 

[Elijah2]

Well mate, what do you really want?

Do you want someone to wave a magical wand and say "STOP"!

Wow, I feel like that all the time. Walking the "narrow path" isn't fun and games of holiness.

What you see is legalistic Christians, and they are more Pharisees than believers of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What is a Christian, well I can tell you mate that a Christian is a beleiver of our Lord Jesus Christ, and we love and forgive all people. It's not a person who goes to church on Sunday, or that they pray, or that they do good. That's an impression that all "non-believers" get.

There are many false Christians, and sad as it is, they are all there to steal and destroy.

Now, it appears to me that you are struggling with homosexuality, is that correct?

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

 

[BobW188]

If you judge Christianity by those of us who call ourselves Christians, you're likely never to return to the faith.
I suggest you read or reread the four Gospels; Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Do the stories presented there lead you to believe that Christ is who he says he is? That He did what they say he did? That, perhaps, He made it possible for you to enjoy an eternal life which you could never gain by your own efforts?
If so, follow Him. I think you'll find yourself frequently tempted to make judgments like those aptly described Pharisees; and you will always have reasons, some good and some bad, to evaluate different behaviors and lifestyles. But, as you note, you [we] are commanded to love others as ourselves and, when we turn to judging sinners rather than sins, we are told that as we judge, so we will be judged.

We all fall short. It may be that some of us have fallen a lot farther than we want to believe.

 

[polishbeast]

"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves (Matt. 7:15).

Many who claim to be Christians often times do not act in christian ways. Yes, you are supposed to love your neighbor despite their religion, as you are supposed to love your enemies. Jesus taught not to hate others so I would say that many people are misguided. The reason that you see a lot of christians outwardly hating one another is that it is easier to notice that than to notice christians loving one another. According to Jesus these people are wrong by the way they act, but than again All Have Sinned and Fall Short of the Glory of God Romans 3:23


Even I am guilty of this. But you should not let others actions deter your faith from God, trust in Him for your faith, not on the actions of others as all of us sin.

 

[wayseer]

I’m on this forum to look for some answers to a few questions ... Where is this hate coming from? ... I want your two cents on all of this. I need to know why the stereotype of the pleasant good upstanding religious person is now the stereotype of the angry bible-thumping religious person.

I'm am glad you asked that question. I am even gladder that a 21 year old asked that question. I was seriously thinking that anyone under 30 years had been so brainwashed that they accepted God as someone akin to Superman, the property rights of which were held by the televangelists.

First - you are a lone voice. You are doing something that you are taught not to do - think. You are seriously questioning society and your culture.

Second - You may not think yourself a Christian but I suggest you have assimilated the essentials of the Christian ideals. You demonstrate, yet again, that many non-Christians better act out the Christian message than do many self-professing Christians.

Third - hate is a sign of fear - and fear is a prison. The prison in this generation, is the same as it was in the generation around the time of Jesus - Nationalism. What you have identified is the nexus between extreme, or fundamental, Christian beliefs and what it means to be an American - it serves to define American culture. What you are hearing is something like - you can't be gay and an American because Americans are Christian and God said there will be no homosexuality - so gays should not have the vote but because they do vote we have to 'hate' them because they are not really American. And the same with any other 'other', Moslems, Buddhists, and especially, peacelovers.

(Australia is heading in the same direction as American - playing catchup).

Fourth - It's very simple really - you have to make a call - Nationalism or Freedom. But, expect no mercy - none was shown to Jesus.

 

[Curiousity]

Well mate, what do you really want?

Do you want someone to wave a magical wand and say "STOP"!

Wow, I feel like that all the time. Walking the "narrow path" isn't fun and games of holiness.

What you see is legalistic Christians, and they are more Pharisees than believers of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What is a Christian, well I can tell you mate that a Christian is a beleiver of our Lord Jesus Christ, and we love and forgive all people. It's not a person who goes to church on Sunday, or that they pray, or that they do good. That's an impression that all "non-believers" get.

There are many false Christians, and sad as it is, they are all there to steal and destroy.

Now, it appears to me that you are struggling with homosexuality, is that correct?

Be blessed in Jesus' Name.

Thank you for taking my questions seriously. But I must inform you that I am not struggling with homosexuality. After your comment I re-read my post and I can see how you would think that. My post made it seem like I am an outsider who has been burned by some of these "false Christians". I am an outsider but I actually haven't been burned. I am disappointed in their behavior towards homosexuals and people of other faith. The reason why I'm may seem defensive is because I don't follow a normal religion and I live with my girlfriend who is a Wiccan. So talking openly with these people has never been something I'd be comfortable with doing.

 

[drich0150]

Where is this hate coming from?

Simply put it stems from pride and selfrightousness. Often times when we are consumed by our religious efforts, (When we worship the method of worship rather than who we are supposed to be worshiping) We loose track of what it is we are put here for. And all of "christianity" quickly becomes a race as to who can be more righteous, in embracing this philosophy, we in turn hate all who don't follow our unique pattern.

Why does it seem to drive the faith of these people more than the love and acceptance the bible teaches?

Again it's self importance, or pride... Sometime you get a confused brother attempting to hate the "sin" and isn't so successful in separating the sin from the sinner.

This is America; it says “All men are created Equal” on one of the greatest documents ever written in all of recorded history.
Why are homosexuals who are just as much of an American as you or me not allowed the same rights as everyone else?

The "same rights" Gay people want have or to claim... Are some of the churches oldest and most sacred institutions.. And in the same spirit that: All men are created equal. It is also written that; Congress shall make not law Governing the affairs of the church.

Please, I want your two cents on all of this. I need to know why the stereotype of the pleasant good upstanding religious person is now the stereotype of the angry bible-thumping religious person.

The problem with the two people you describe are they are children of "religion" (Mans effort to serve God) God has a plan that has been documented, anything outside of this plan can be considered "religion." Because religion is of man, and not of God it is subject to the same corruption that all of man's intuitions are cursed with. There are shinning examples of when the "system" works, but more often than not we are consumed by our foolish efforts.

 

[Johnnz]

Thanks for a honest post.

Many people find they need to distinguish between good biblical understanding and what some Christians both believe an practice.

Apart from that issue you need sensible reasons, presented clearly and graciously, for your faith. When this happens we have established a deep security about our faith; of being able and willing to love God 'with all our minds'. There is plenty of really good information available, written and available for downloading and later listening on the internet. PM me if you want some resources that I can recommend.

John
NZ

 

[BigNorsk]

The trustworthy answer to what you are asking is in a simple passage in the Bible:
Luk 18:9 He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and treated others with contempt:
Luk 18:10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Luk 18:11 The Pharisee, standing by himself, prayed thus: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I get.'
Luk 18:13 But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, a sinner!'
Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

The Pharisee recognized the sins of others, but not the sin of himself. He thought of himself as different than those other people, those sinners, and I'm sure he could spend a long time telling just how bad they were.

He wasn't saved because he did not recognize himself as a sinner in need of saving. Instead, of himself, he thought how good he was.

But there was the tax collector. Tax collectors were just a bit below pig farmers on the social scale.

Did he complain of the sins of others? Did he thank God that he wasn't like them. No, he recognized himself for what he was, a sinner, in need of saving. And God did save him.

We get lots of groups of Pharisees today, they dehumanize others and they pick on them. They tell everyone what sinners those people are, they thank God they aren't one of those horrible sinners. Often it seems the groups they pick on are specifically chosen because they aren't represented.

For some reason it doesn't seem near as popular to preach in those groups against greed and the worship of money. No, that would likely hit close to home. Never mention the sins of the people in the group, someone might be offended.

No, instead of having the preaching of the law so that they can recognize their sinfulness and need of saving and then offering the gospel to save them, to release them, instead, they preach the law against others, fail to recognize their own sins, and don't bother with the gospel because they see no need for it.

We are called, as Christians, to make disciples of all nations. Yet in many of these cases, we see examples of people who are like Jonah. They enjoy preaching the destruction of the people they don't like, but called to save them? Better to be swallowed by a fish. Anything but save a sinner. The last thing they want is for those people they preach against to join them. It all goes against the very fiber of Chritianity. God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whosoever, whether homosexual, or minority, or other nationality or whatever, shall not perish but have everlasting life.

I should mention. I don't know exactly what it was like where you grew up, but I do know that Indiana was the only state that was ever controlled from top to bottom by the KKK. And I know that a lot of pockets that harken right back to that still persist today. I can't help but wonder if you didn't run into that or at least that attitude.

Marv

 

[Curiousity]

[/SIZE]

I can assure you that, that was a shameful time in Indiana's past and it is long gone. You do run into the classic redneck here or there but no more then you would in Ohio or Iowa. Even the most bigoted people I've met would never be caught dead associating with such an organization. Please don't let the past shadow your opinion of Indiana. I love my state and town very much even if I don't agree with where it's come from I do know it's come a long way.

 

[BigNorsk]

I can assure you that, that was a shameful time in Indiana's past and it is long gone. You do run into the classic redneck here or there but no more then you would in Ohio or Iowa. Even the most bigoted people I've met would never be caught dead associating with such an organization. Please don't let the past shadow your opinion of Indiana. I love my state and town very much even if I don't agree with where it's come from I do know it's come a long way.

I know most people don't join the organization, but if it's such a thing of the past and people have come such a long ways, why do you associate such hate filled behavior with people who are supposedly Christian? The KKK makes a big deal out of being Christian themselves you know.

You complain of churches who do not preach the gospel of Jesus Christ but instead they preach the doctrines of the KKK. I'm pretty sure they don't call themselves KKK but the teachings of the KKK are obviously not a thing of the past or else you are just making up your posts.

The majority of the Christian people (my age or otherwise) aren’t the Flanders (from Simpsons). A decent chunk of the Christians and Catholics that I’ve met in my life time aren’t the peace loving, gentle speaking, caring individuals you might think of as religious people. They seem angrier to me. They HATE. More importantly they hate a lot. And it’s not just Indiana. I’ve been all over the country and still run into these religious types.

People who hate a lot are the typical Christians you find? Obviously bigotted hatred is not a thing of the past, even if people don't carry membership cards, the message is the same. Only it's not the message of Jesus.

Marv

 

[Thanuist]

I really do feel for you because I am in the same boat. The only thing that can be done is continue to preach your message and always work on yourself. You're always going to get the naysayers saying you aren't christian, or you're wrong because you don't believe xyz liek they do, and you knwo what? They don't matter. They're so lost in their own little world that they have no desire to and may have lost their ability to see what's beyond the illusion of the word and world.Just keep chugging along, keep loving and talking to the people who turn their back on you, take the bans from the so called christian forums to the point where they give up trying to get rid of you, and never back down. You won't get through to everyone, but even if you open the heart of only one person it's enough.

 

[Curiousity]

I know most people don't join the organization, but if it's such a thing of the past and people have come such a long ways, why do you associate such hate filled behavior with people who are supposedly Christian? The KKK makes a big deal out of being Christian themselves you know.

You complain of churches who do not preach the gospel of Jesus Christ but instead they preach the doctrines of the KKK. I'm pretty sure they don't call themselves KKK but the teachings of the KKK are obviously not a thing of the past or else you are just making up your posts.


People who hate a lot are the typical Christians you find? Obviously bigotted hatred is not a thing of the past, even if people don't carry membership cards, the message is the same. Only it's not the message of Jesus.

Marv

I know it seems that way but it's not. I have met many good Christians and many, many good people in Indiana. But my post is about the "false Christians" I seem to find here and there. I don't want to give the impression that Indiana has nothing but bigoted people. Sad thing is that what you said about preaching old KKK doctrines under the guise of a church probable is true in some circles but I have never found any myself. The majority of Indiana is more open minded. The people I'm talking about do appear to disagree with other religions and stuff like that but never to the point of wanting to drive Hebrews or Muslims out of town. Their hatred has always had kind of a sports feel to it. Like other religions and lifestyles are the opposing team and these Christian's religion is going to "kick butt at the big game!" In high school you might have hated the other school's team but you never wanted to set their mascot on fire did you?

 

[BigNorsk]

I thought you had said you met many of the angry hate preaching people, I must have misunderstood.

Maybe we should go back to the word right at the end of your first post. Stereotype.

Really much of this traces back to not dealing with each other as human beings but as dehumanized stereotypes.

It's done by and to most people at some point.

Why do stereotypes abound? Mostly it's being lazy. Instead of dealing with individuals, you can treat entire groups with one broad sweep.

So the stereotype of the angry Christians you mention should really be recognized in the same light as the stereotype of homosexuals that some would use.

You'd think being stereotyped would encourage one not to stereotype, but it seems to work almost in reverse.

It's very difficult to really talk with someone about the stereotypes they use. Just wade into someone ranting about liberals or for that matter conservatives. The words get almost useless because mostly they just mean someone not like me.

Are there people who pat themselves on the back because they aren't like other people while calling themselves Christian? Sure. It get right back to what I pointed out in my first post, they aren't recognizing their own sinfulness and how their salvation is in no way an endorsement of them.

I thought about not mentioning the KKK in my first post and I guess I shouldn't have. It diverted from the gist of my post. You think the KKK was so different than the people today, but they really aren't people are the same. Lost sinners in need of saving. People who turn to whatever to assure themselves that they are right with God and others aren't.

People turn to a lot of things, their race, their politics, whether they are liberal or conservative, even where they live. All sorts of things are given as proof. It really just comes down to they aren't like me so thy must be bad because I am good. But only the person who's faith is in Christ and Christ alone is rightly called a Christian. The Bible is quite clear you can't mix other gods with God, whether it's money or what people call a god, they don't mix. It's idolatry.

Marv

 

[AnyaMa]

I was really disapointed when I first found God because the more I looked the more I realized all the Christians I knew really werent. They talk it but dont walk it, and to this day they still believe they are. In fact, I would say out of every 30 christians I meet, only 2 of them are "real". By that I mean practicing, daily bible reading and praying, and striving constantly to better themselves and draw closer to the Lord.

But the more I thought about it, its kind of like a clever battle plan. If Satan were wanting to destroy Christians, what an easier way than to let them destroy themselves? The bible is clear that God is love, so anyone that is full of hate is clearly not behaving as a real Christian should.

My bible study group often uses the phrase "Hate the sin, and not the sinner!" People with good intentions easily are led astray.

 

[Maranatha27]

Hi,
I am a christian and am disgusted by a good amount of christians myself. I feel some of this is because of ingnorance of the Word, and partly because of the coruption of the human heart. Some christian programing is generally fund raising, getting rich off the Word of God. Others like Joel Osteen is basically motivational speaking, no substance, no power and no Gospel. I believe that the hieracy in the Catholic Church is totally corrupt. The fruit they have been producing is all over the news if you get my drift. This although doesnt shake my faith, My foundation is the Lord Jesus Christ, I am sealed with the Holy Spirit, and the Word I have found to be more precious than fine gold. Now from a Christian standpoint sin is sin. There are clear teachings given in the Word of God, that condemn man having a sexual relation ship with a man, and likewise for women.


Im a follower of Christ, it was his blood shed at calvary for us, and thats who I follow and give heed to. I have two homosexual aunts, I love them, but I veiw there lifestyle choice as sinful, just as I veiw my sisters choice to live in fornication. Sin is sin, none of it has sugar on top. Now about the issue of hate, turn off the tv or walk out of the room if it bothers you. They may be very well in the wrong but you don't have to listen to it. My experience recently has been the opposite of what say. People hate me because im a christian. At my job there is an older man named Peter. He shares some of your veiws about science and on top of that is on the far left of the politcal spectrum. All is well and good, I would talk to him and enjoyed his conversation. I would listen mostly and he would talk. well he caught wind that I believe that Jesus Christ died, rose again and sits at the right hand of the Father on high. Our conversations as you can imagine took a turn for the worst. I have never seen such hate come out of this godless man. I'll make a post about our ongoing relationship next. Not to offend you, but The message that I hold is foolishness to you, Im naive or need a crutch to get through this difficult life

1 cor 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

As for hate christian martydom has exponentially increased. although this is not reported over your tv, and radio. Satan is the prince of the power of the air, no wonder. Satan is the god of this world and Christians and Jews take the blunt blow of his wrath.

John [20] Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also

John 15 [22] If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
[23] He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
[24] If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
[25] But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause

 

[JCSeeker]

Why are homosexuals who are just as much of an American as you or me not allowed the same rights as everyone else?
Please, I want your two cents on all of this. I need to know why the stereotype of the pleasant good upstanding religious person is now the stereotype of the angry bible-thumping religious person.

I think God's own people have the tendency to hurt him the most. I've heard that the leading cause of Atheism is Christians, and I can see why.

But see for yourself! Don't depend on the actions of 'Christians' to see if there is a God. Be filled by Jesus himself, and you will know that he's the one. The reason is simply that without Jesus there is no meaning in life.

You are absolutely correct about homosexuals. God loves them as well. If there's one message we need to learn from the bible, it's this: God is love. Yes, in the old testament God destroyed entire cities because of sins such as homosexuality. But WE live in a new era, where all are welcome to receive His grace.

I pray that you will be open hearted for God, even though his people are not good examples for you.

 

[Maranatha27]

"You are absolutely correct about homosexuals. God loves them as well. If there's one message we need to learn from the bible, it's this: God is love. Yes, in the old testament God destroyed entire cities because of sins such as homosexuality. But WE live in a new era, where all are welcome to receive His grace."


The Age of grace began at the Pentecost. JCSeeker, this is the new era you speak of?

 

[JCSeeker]

Yeah, the era which began when Jesus was crucified, died, and rose again, and ascended to heaven.

 

[Maranatha27]

alright just checking.