I don't think I quite understand religion...

[CuriousChristian23]

Hi, I'm new here and am certainly not trying to start any big arguments nor am I attempting to spam these forums with some kind of anti-Christian sentiment.

I'm not a very religious guy. I'm 21 years old and have only been to a church a few times (like one or two Easters when I was a child). I grew up with my parents who were both raised as Christians, but never really pushed me or my siblings into it. I feel like I have a bit of a grasp on what Christianity is about as well as some other religions. As far as I can tell all that religion really is, is a way to "remind" people to be nice as much as possible and maybe some kind of explanation/hope to give people for what may happen after they die.

Like I said, I'm not very religious and have basically lived my whole life just being nice because it feels good. I love helping people, being funny, being kind and seeing people smile or laugh and feeling like I was part of why they were happy (or less sad) for that moment. (I realize this is prideful and also maybe selfish, but why should that matter? I made people other than me happy, and that made me happy...) I don't do this because I feel like I owe it to Jesus for doing nice things and giving his life for us, I do it because I like to see people happy. I'm nice because I like to be, not because I feel like I need to be to get into Heaven (If there is a Heaven, and my kindness gets me in, then good lol, but if not I'd still act the same way).

Also I feel like some parts of religions are kind of to specific and just unbelievable. For instance, isn't there some kind of thing within Christianity where masturbation is looked down upon? I really don't understand that. Who does it hurt? Why is it so bad? Should I have to apologize for doing it? I don't think so. I'm not actually killing babies. Now that is something that I could see being a "sin". Same thing with the "sin" of pride (I think I've heard its a sin at least). I don't understand at all why it's bad to feel proud of yourself for your accomplishments. Let's say a guy creates a cure for cancer and saves millions of lives, should he not be allowed to be proud and happy and think "Ahhh, I did a good thing! I feel really good right now!"? Why not? If he can't feel good about doing good things what would his reason for doing those things be?? Fear of Hell? I feel like that would be a more selfish reason.

Another thing I don't really like about religion (or at least Christianity, since so many of my friends follow it) is that none of them seem to really follow it correctly, or at least they don't seem to be as "Christian" as me (a not-so-Christian guy). For instance, some of my friends are terrible with holding grudges when people they know do something wrong or upset them in some way. These people can be their good life-long friends and they might mess up, maybe indulge a little to much with alcohol and do something stupid. Then this person apologizes very sincerely and tries very hard to make it up to the person but they just won't forgive them! Like I keep saying I don't claim to know much about any religion, but I'm pretty sure forgiveness is one of the main aspects of Christianity and I find it uhm funny I guess that my "Christian" friends are some of my friends who have the hardest time with forgiving people.

And actually those same friends happen to be some of my least accepting friends. They seem to be more likely to exclude people who they deem weird, or even in some cases include those people, but only for a source of humor behind their backs I know this may just be a case of me only having met a few "bad" Christians while there are way more "good" Christians out there.

BUT, then I come to this website and I see a bunch of forum sections with titles like "something something (CHRISTIANS ONLY). What is this?? Does Christianity teach that we are to not accept or allow other non-Christians to comment or join in with our conversations about beliefs, feelings, afterlife, etc.? I don't think so!

I guess I'm just posting this because I think a lot (probably too much lol) and I've always kind of wondered what the point of religions was. So any kind of answers you guys have for me or comments about anything I've said would be much appreciated.

(Also please remember I'm not trying to make anybody angry or anything like that. I DON'T KNOW A LOT ABOUT THIS STUFF lol and I'm just saying what I have heard/believe is correct/have experienced through people I know. Please be kind in your responses but feel free to correct anything I'm misinformed on and I'm willing to take part in open debate about the topics as well, so feel free to speak your mind and I'll try to respond in as educated a way as I can)

 

[timf]

I once met a woman in Japan who, when I asked her about religion, said that she had felt bad occasionally before, but not bad enough to consider religion. For her, and I suppose many people around the world, religion is a soporific much in the way Carl Marx described.

I can imagine that Christianity can look confusing from the outside. There are so many different flavors and what Christians do is often very different than what the Bible describes.

To strip away all of the confusing and misleading actions, doctrines, and practices, one has to go just to the Bible. Here is the key that makes Christianity different. All religions and cults in the world are predicated on some act or acts that need to be performed by you. Christianity is based on what someone else (Jesus) has already done.

Christianity is supposed to be about becoming more like Jesus, growing in truth and love. Unfortunately there are those who claim to be Christian who are not as well as those who are Christian but cannot surrender their selfishness that keeps them from becoming like Jesus.

If you read the New Testament, you will find a description of the way Christians are supposed to live as well as examples of when they were off-track (Corinth, Galatia, Laodicea).

Christians can share and be open with other Christians because they have the living Christ in them through their new life (being born again). This means there is some interaction that cannot be shared with the unsaved since they do not have this new life. It is not so much exclusionary, but more like limiting an art appreciation class to the sighted.

Jesus is truth and the Bible is truth. God draws us to Jesus by creating in us a resonance with truth. If you are not drawn by the Father, you will find Christianity foolish.

 

[LilLamb219]

Christianity is the ONLY religion where you don't have to be good enough or do something to earn entry into something better in the afterlife.

Christians believe that because of the fall of man in the garden of eden that God came to earth in the form of man (Jesus the Christ), lived the perfectly obedient life that we never could, and died on the cross in our place for the forgiveness of our sins. We are redeemed and reconciled to our triune God because of His love, compassion and mercy upon us. We do not deserve any of that, but He did that for us. There is no other religion that gives you that! The triune God is the one and true God who loves us and saves us. Those who believe go to heaven, those who reject what He has done damn themselves.

Now, BECAUSE He has done all this for us, we in turn are very grateful. We see that our neighbors need our love and kindness, and so we want to follow God's holy law that includes loving our neighbor. It doesn't gain us anything...we don't earn brownie points.

As for websites that have Christian only sections, I know that a part of the reason is because sometimes a lot of atheist trolls go into those sections if not prohibited and cause problems. It happens A LOT. There are sites that actually encourage people to go to other sites to wreak havoc!

 

[CuriousChristian23]

Okay thank you guys for the insights. I have read some parts of the New Testament for a class I took a year ago and most of the descriptions of what Jesus said and did I liked a lot. I have always agreed with living by these ideas even before knowing that they were in the Bible at all. So I like what Jesus teaches but I'm still unsure if I really believe the whole story of a "God" who then took human form as Jesus and all that stuff.

So if I live my life following all that Jesus teaches (aside from the belief in god stuff) and do so because I think it feels good to be kind to my enemies knowing that they actually deserve to be loved and that there must be some explanation for what caused them to do me wrong, and to not steal, and to treat others in the way I'd like to be treated, etc. I would still be damned according to Christianity just for questioning the existence of God/Jesus?

I'm quite curious about this one. Please let me know what you think.

 

[LilLamb219]

You would be damned because your GOOD deeds weren't done by faith. They were good in your eyes but not in God's eyes. Besides, it would still be you trying to do good to earn your spot in heaven, which the Bible speaks against.

We cannot do enough good to ever earn our way to heaven! Thankfully, we don't have to rely on that since God in the form of man did the best thing ever...He died in our place. His obedience is what counts. Believers are washed in that righteousness of His and when God looks at the faithful, He no longer sees us as sinners but us as the redeemed.

Do you believe that we are sinful humans in need of salvation? Or do you still want to cling to that hope that you can earn your way someplace better? I know that I can never do enough good...I rely on the freedom given to me by God through His death and resurrection.

 

[CuriousChristian23]

See, I'm not trying to earn my way to some place better. I'm not sure that I believe there is a "Heaven" so my good deeds are not for that purpose but for the sole purpose of making others more happy. And in my mind that is a perfectly acceptable reason for doing good.

And this is what I dislike most about religions, that for some reason that's not good enough? I try to do good as much as possible (of course there's always more that could be done) and I'm not doing it as a reason to be "saved", just to create happiness. But also I'm not willing to lie to myself and pretend to believe in something that I'm not sure exists just to be "saved" either. Does this make any sense? I can't just make myself believe something I don't actually believe. Saying I believed it would just be a lie. I believe it could be possible but not for certain.

So I guess in the eyes of a Christian I am damned....but to be honest I feel like if the way I'm living my life isn't good enough for "God" then I don't really want him to save me...(if there even is saving to be needed)

 

[LilLamb219]

But how are you doing on being good enough helping others? I mean, really, you help out...when you feel like it, right?

You say one thing but then turn around and restate it in a different way. You say you aren't doing good deeds to earn anything but then wonder why it isn't enough for God to give you a spot in heaven for it.

God is perfect and sin cannot be near Him. We are sinful beings...do you believe that you are sinful?

Since we are sinful, AS WE ARE we cannot get to heaven...which is why God gave us a way to get there, He died on the cross so all those nasty sins can be forgiven. The slate is wiped clean with God. You can still go ahead and do good deeds for others but don't expect a spot in heaven because of it because we aren't saved by our works.

God would love for you to rely on HIM instead of yourself.

 

[CuriousChristian23]

Okay, so according to Christianity, what I do doesn't matter at all as long as I believe in God and accept him as my savior? That's all someone needs to do to get into Heaven?? I hate this Heaven if that is the case.

Ah, yeah I don't know. Basically everything you're saying to me is just making me think that all of this stuff is kinda dumb (sorry it's just what I think) and that if Christianity is the true religion I just wouldn't even want to be a good Christian, no matter the consequences.

 

[LilLamb219]

See, now you're still wanting to get to heaven based upon YOU.

I think I know the reason too. We all want God to acknowledge us...so that we feel that our lives aren't wasted...that our actions mean something and someone takes notice of us and pats us on the back. We all want to be special in God's eyes.

But yet, God doesn't work in the way our human minds want Him to. He DOES notice us. He notices us and loves us so much that He died for us. He is the one saving us. That makes us special. That humbles us. We don't HAVE TO DO anything. We don't have a demanding God.

We have a giving God...one who doesn't stop giving to us. He gives us freedom, forgiveness, redemption and we don't have to do anything for it. We don't have to beg for it. We don't have to plead. He gives us gifts...the gift of faith in order to believe so that we may have eternal life. He doesn't retract His promises. It's man who decides to walk away and not want what has already been given to us. You see, Christ already died for your sins and you are forgiven, but you would rather slap it all away and say No Thank You. God doesn't ask for anything in return...why walk away?

 

[CuriousChristian23]

I would rather prove to MYSELF that I'M a good person and do what I think is right and if I feel good about the way I am living and have lived then I will be happy. I dont care one bit about this "heaven" that is run by some "being" who wants to force everyone to love him and gives them things for their love (salvation). I love many people, and try to be loving to all people I meet (it's actually sort of what I live my life by: "Love Everyone"). I don't love these people because I expect anything in return, it's just what I feel is right and good.

I guess I don't care about god or what he thinks of ME or anyone else (if he exists). If I'm happy with MY life then it's all good. I'd rather be happy with MY life and the things that I do in it, and spend an eternity burning, than being forced to believe in and love a potentially fictitious being who won't help those who don't believe.

 

[joey_downunder]

You've asked some good questions so far.

Re your questions and statements showing you may be good enough to please God ''by your own works":
Are You a Good Person? - YouTube
Now let's say you actually believe you have never DONE a single one of those things in your entire lifetime- Jesus warned if we even think any of those things we have sinned in the eyes of God. matthew 5:21-48
Is that unfair? From our perspective yes it is, but we conveniently forget we are sinners, our consciences have been seared and our hearts are full of sin. Romans 3:9-20 God is perfect and holy and pure and does not deserve to have such impure beings in His sight.

Have you ever done or thought or said a single wrong, sinful or faulty thing in your life? If yes you do not deserve to be saved.james 2:8-13
Time for you to examine yourself very carefully now.

 

[LilLamb219]

I would rather prove to MYSELF that I'M a good person and do what I think is right and if I feel good about the way I am living and have lived then I will be happy. I dont care one bit about this "heaven" that is run by some "being" who wants to force everyone to love him and gives them things for their love (salvation). I love many people, and try to be loving to all people I meet (it's actually sort of what I live my life by: "Love Everyone"). I don't love these people because I expect anything in return, it's just what I feel is right and good.

I guess I don't care about god or what he thinks of ME or anyone else (if he exists). If I'm happy with MY life then it's all good. I'd rather be happy with MY life and the things that I do in it, and spend an eternity burning, than being forced to believe in and love a potentially fictitious being who won't help those who don't believe.

God does not force us to love Him as you falsely state. He doesn't force us to believe either...but He does give us the gift of faith so that we may believe. We can choose to reject Him though and all He has to offer. Those who do reject and would rather turn away don't feel that they need to repent of their wrongdoings...does that sound like you?

 

[thesunisout]

(Also please remember I'm not trying to make anybody angry or anything like that. I DON'T KNOW A LOT ABOUT THIS STUFF lol and I'm just saying what I have heard/believe is correct/have experienced through people I know. Please be kind in your responses but feel free to correct anything I'm misinformed on and I'm willing to take part in open debate about the topics as well, so feel free to speak your mind and I'll try to respond in as educated a way as I can)

Hey there,

Welcome to the forum. I can relate to some of your questions and viewpoints, because I have held similar positions in the past. I'll try to articulate what I am hearing from you:

I think you see yourself as a good person, better than most, and you think it is an inferior form of goodness to do good works based on what God has commanded rather than an innate desire to do so.

You view God as being selfish and controlling, manipulating the circumstances to get what He wants. You don't want to serve God or enter into His paradise because you feel it is coerced.

Basically, you think that if God doesn't accept you as you are, which you feel is quite good enough indeed, that you don't want anything to do with Him.

I also get the idea that you don't understand the gospel. I'll try to answer your questions.

First of all, your definition of good is quite a bit different than Gods. I'll preface this with a scripture:

Proverbs 21:2

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the LORD weighs the heart

What God considers good is not a bunch of good deeds with the occasional sin. What is good to God is moral perfection. That means not even one sin in your entire life. It means never telling a lie, stealing, or looking upon a women with lust. It means never doing even one unrighteous thing.

Further, God has ordained that the penalty for sin is death. That means that any sin puts you under Gods judgment, and no amount of good works is going to cancel your crimes. Think about if you were in court for various crimes, and you told the judge that he should let you go because of the volunteer work you did for the local orphanage. Do you think he would he let you go? Neither do I, and if he did he would be a corrupt judge. In the same way, God is your judge, and He cannot be bribed by your good works. If He could, He would be a corrupt judge too.

However, God is merciful and it is not His desire to send you to hell. That is why He made a way for sinners to be reconciled to Him and receive eternal life. This way is His Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus came to Earth as a man and He lived a perfect life without sin. Jesus went to the cross for the purpose of taking all of the sins of the world upon Himself, and taking our punishment for us by dying in our place. God proved all of this by raising Him from the dead on third day.

Because of His sacrifice, we can be reconciled to God and receive forgiveness for our sins and eternal life. We do not earn salvation for anything we have done on our own. We receive salvation for what Jesus did on the cross. Our faith in Him is counted to us as righteousness, and this is what justifies us before God.

You said you like to do good works because it makes you feel good, and that you want to prove to yourself that you're a good person. You have to realize that these motives are inherently selfish and not actually good. In the end, it's still all about you. What God wants to do is reconstitute this internal predilection and open your heart to His love, not only for you, but for all people. It is through His love that you escape this perpetually looping self-aggrandizement.

Now, what I really want you to understand is that I am not talking about religion with you. I am talking to you about an experiential, personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe. This is nothing to do with going to church, reading the bible, or following doctrines. This is about knowing God personally.

What happens when you truly give your life to Christ is that you are born again. To be born again means to be born again in the Spirit. This means that you are supernaturally transformed by the Holy Spirit, and that God comes to live within you. It means that you become a new person. These are not just flowerly words, but an actual experience that you will have when you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.

You don't have to wonder if God is real, or if Jesus is His Son. You can pray this prayer and ask Him into your life:

Jesus, I admit that I am a sinner. I believe that you paid for those sins by dying on the cross and that God raised you from the dead. I ask you now to forgive all of my sins and I invite you to come into my life as Lord and Savior. Please come and live within me, Lord Jesus. Amen.

If you pray that prayer, sincerely, you will be saved and you will come to know Jesus Christ personally. I pray that you will do so. God bless you.

 

[CuriousChristian23]

Okay so obviously I have sinned in my life. This includes both sins laid out by Christianity like breaking the 10 commandments as well as sins of my own morality aka the sins that I actually care about. I have done some things that were not nice and made other people unhappy or upset. I have lied to people (some that I believe should not be sins, but also some actual bad lies as well) and I have definitely done things that I wish I wouldn't have done. But every time I do something that I believe to be very bad or that I consider truly sinful I always feel very bad about it (which I feel is equivalent to praying for forgiveness for it) and I try to gain forgiveness from whomever I've wronged as well.

For instance, about 2 and a half year ago I was walking to one of my classes on a sunny day and a girl was standing on the sidewalk asking for someone to help her find "Starin". Nobody was stopping to help so I pulled out my headphones and asked her what she was looking for. I then pointed her in the direction of the Starin dining hall on campus, but what I didn't realize (because I have very impaired vision) is that she was holding a cane and was actually completely blind. So she told me that she couldn't see where I was pointing and then I noticed the cane. So I then took her hand and pointed it in the direction she needed to go to get to "Starin" (I may have walked her over there if I hadn't been on my way to class, but I can't know for sure that I would've). So she went on her way off in the direction I had told her to go. About 3 hours after talking with this girl I thought to myself "hmmmm she said 'Starin' not 'Starin Hall', maybe she was only trying to get to Starin Road!" So I basically thought about that every night for a long time until I finally got over it by convincing myself that she probably made it eventually or that it was a less big deal than I made it out to be. I guess I'm just saying that I felt bad about possibly causing a blind person to have an even harder time finding what they were looking for even though I was trying to help. This is how I feel anytime I do something that I think negatively impacts someone else's life. And I think that sincerely feeling bad and wishing things had gone differently is similar to praying for forgiveness. And God should count that. I would like to be forgiven for those things that I think about all the time and feel badly about (the things I consider sins). I don't know however if I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins...

LilLamb219 said:

Those who do reject and would rather turn away don't feel that they need to repent of their wrongdoings...does that sound like you?

Repent: to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (from dictionary.com)

I definitely need to repent for my wrongdoings. I do it a lot!


thesunisout said:

What God considers good is not a bunch of good deeds with the occasional sin. What is good to God is moral perfection. That means not even one sin in your entire life. It means never telling a lie, stealing, or looking upon a women with lust. It means never doing even one unrighteous thing.

I think that repenting for the sins should make up for committing those sins, otherwise what is the point of repenting? If I lie to someone and feel bad about it for days after (aka admit to sinning and repent for it), is that not good enough for God? I have to believe that Jesus died to absolve me of my sins instead of believing that repenting should absolve me?

Also if I make that prayer you suggest I will be committing a sin by doing so, since it will be a lie to say I believe Jesus paid for my sins by dying on the cross and that he was raised from the dead by God.

(Thank you guys all for your comments this far!)

 

[LilLamb219]

Repentance doesn't absolve you of your sins. It's a bridge between knowing the wrong you've done and leading to the forgiveness that God offers because of the Savior's death on the cross.

 

[Nails74]

Repent: to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (from dictionary.com)

I definitely need to repent for my wrongdoings. I do it a lot!

You are missing part of the definition. The other part of repentance is turning away from sin and turning towards God.

I think that repenting for the sins should make up for committing those sins, otherwise what is the point of repenting? If I lie to someone and feel bad about it for days after (aka admit to sinning and repent for it), is that not good enough for God? I have to believe that Jesus died to absolve me of my sins instead of believing that repenting should absolve me?

Someone had to take the punishment for your sins...

For Christ also suffered for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that He might bring you to God, after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm. [1 Peter 3:18]

Also if I make that prayer you suggest I will be committing a sin by doing so, since it will be a lie to say I believe Jesus paid for my sins by dying on the cross and that he was raised from the dead by God.

Fortunately, a prayer will not save you...your only hope of salvation is Christ.

 

[joey_downunder]

Okay so obviously I have sinned in my life.

That is an extremely important first step. You recognize you are a sinner.

But every time I do something that I believe to be very bad or that I consider truly sinful I always feel very bad about it (which I feel is equivalent to praying for forgiveness for it) and I try to gain forgiveness from whomever I've wronged as well.

That may ease your conscience somewhat. However is that enough to please God? Romans 2:1-10
Especially note:
There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
(Romans 2:9-10 ESV)
No loopholes mentioned to wipe our slate clean in God's eyes e.g. if we felt some shame or tried to fix things up via apologies or good deeds.

And I think that sincerely feeling bad and wishing things had gone differently is similar to praying for forgiveness. And God should count that. I would like to be forgiven for those things that I think about all the time and feel badly about (the things I consider sins). I don't know however if I believe that Jesus died on the cross for my sins...

The apostle Judas felt remorse and regret that he betrayed Jesus. Was that enough to save him? Had he actually repented for his sins? Matthew 27:1-10
Hint: Metanoia. Genuine repentance results from FAITH in Jesus.

 

[thesunisout]

thesunisout said:

I think that repenting for the sins should make up for committing those sins, otherwise what is the point of repenting? If I lie to someone and feel bad about it for days after (aka admit to sinning and repent for it), is that not good enough for God? I have to believe that Jesus died to absolve me of my sins instead of believing that repenting should absolve me?

Also if I make that prayer you suggest I will be committing a sin by doing so, since it will be a lie to say I believe Jesus paid for my sins by dying on the cross and that he was raised from the dead by God.

(Thank you guys all for your comments this far!)

If you commit a crime and go into the courtroom and tell everyone you're really sorry and that you feel very terrible about the whole thing, is the judge going to let you go? Obviously not. That wouldn't be justice, and if the judge let you go, he would be a corrupt judge. It's the same way with God. He is not going to let you off the hook because you feel bad. You are supposed to feel bad; that isn't your punishment, that is a consequence of violating Gods standard of behavior.

Basically, you seem to be saying that God should just approve whatever you do because you are taking care of it yourself. Well, that's the entire problem. You can't take care of it yourself, and you don't realize how far you actually are from being good. You aren't doing Gods will so the deeds which you think justify you are actually like filthy rags before a Holy God. Being nice and helping people with their groceries and things of this nature is wonderful, but you don't understand the kind of help people really need. They need the help that only God can provide, and therefore everything you are doing is falling far short of what is actually going to change someones life.

I would not encourage you to lie by praying something you don't believe. An insincere prayer to God isn't going to save you. If you took a step out in faith, however, and asked Jesus to come into your life and to show you the way, He would do it.

 

[1watchman]

All these thoughts about what you think, Curious, misses the mark. It flies in the face of the Creator-God who says we all have sinned and are sinners by nature. Don't provoke God by insolence and claiming your goodness.

If we set our own standards we are doomed. God provided salvation in His beloved Son, and if one does not want the Savior, and just wants the blessings of God, he/she will have no part in God. I strongly urge you to read the Bible --beginning in the New Testament. Read John 1, John 3, John 14, and ask God to teach you what He is saying there to make it good to your own soul.

You need to surrender your will and receive the Savior --the Lord Jesus, into your heart and be devoted to Him, and thankful for His sacrifice for your salvation. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit and understand what we all have learned who know Jesus Christ as our redeemer.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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