I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell.

[Soulgazer]

You can reject the bible all you want but in this Christian website arguments from scripture are perfectly valid. Secondly, if you don't believe in the words of scripture then our arguments would come from different foundational frameworks so we will arrive no where. All of the biblical writers opine from the same framework which makes scripture consistent from start to finish.

Of course this argument is for another thread.

Not from the guidelines put forth in the OP's original post. He used both scripture and reason, and made no call's for a scripture only approach; Scripture is fine when proving what an individual author thought. However, opinions are like butt-holes. Everybody has one. If we are searching for truth, we need to look past just opinion and use every tool at our disposal.

 

[trident343]

‪Annihilationism - Revelation 14:9-11 Exegesis Part 1‬‏ - YouTube

‪Annihilationism - Revelation 14:9-11 Exegesis Part 2‬‏ - YouTube

 

[Timothew]

Not from the guidelines put forth in the OP's original post. He used both scripture and reason, and made no call's for a scripture only approach; Scripture is fine when proving what an individual author thought. However, opinions are like butt-holes. Everybody has one. If we are searching for truth, we need to look past just opinion and use every tool at our disposal.

I'm the OP, I believe scripture and reason should work together. We don't need to be scripture only in this thread. Let's try to determine truth with whatever tools we have available.

 

[Hentenza]

Not from the guidelines put forth in the OP's original post. He used both scripture and reason, and made no call's for a scripture only approach; Scripture is fine when proving what an individual author thought. However, opinions are like butt-holes. Everybody has one. If we are searching for truth, we need to look past just opinion and use every tool at our disposal.

If our own reason conflicts with scripture then it is our reason that is incorrect not scripture.

 

[Timothew]

‪Annihilationism - Revelation 14:9-11 Exegesis Part 1‬‏ - YouTube

‪Annihilationism - Revelation 14:9-11 Exegesis Part 2‬‏ - YouTube

Can you summarize the video links? I don't want to spend 22 minutes on this, yet.

 

[trident343]

Can you summarize the video links? I don't want to spend 22 minutes on this, yet.

Sure. This wasn't necessarily just for you, but for anybody else who is viewing the thread. It was a couple videos I did which compared the words "for ever and ever" in Revelation 14;9-11 to a couple different places in scripture. Isaiah 34, and Revelation 19"

My point was to show that I don't think we can use the term "For ever and ever" to definitely establish an unending period of time because in Isaiah and the book of revelation itself it has uses of an obviously limited frame of time.

 

[trident343]

It seems more often than not when I use the term "For ever" it is a limited sense. I mostly use it in a figurative sense. For instance "It took you forever to get ready to go out" or perhaps "At the top of this tall building I can see for ever!" this is another good one because the term doesn't even refer to time, but distance and is still figurative.

 

[Soulgazer]

If our own reason conflicts with scripture then it is our reason that is incorrect not scripture.

Nonsense. That approach leads us down the path of superstition, a very dangerous path indeed. We already know that the earth was billions of years old when man evolved onto it. This proves the genesis mythology to be not literal, but analogy. We can keep that approach, and discern the symbolism that the various authors wrote in. The various early Christian creation stories further highlight that the Moses account was for a time rejected and reinterpreted by both Jewish and Gentile Christians alike, so we shall remain in good company.

"Remove yourself from these things, O wretched soul! Bring your guide and your teacher. The mind is the guide, but reason is the teacher. They will bring you out of destruction and dangers.
<>
My son, accept the education and the teaching. Do not flee from the education and the teaching, but when you are taught, accept (it) with joy. And if you are educated in any matter, do what is good. You will plait a crown of education by your guiding principle.
<>
Cast from you death, which has become a father to you. For death did not exist, nor will it exist at the end.
<>
Listen, my son, to my advice. Do not be arrogant in opposition to every good opinion, but take for yourself the side of the divinity of reason. Keep the holy commandments of Jesus Christ, and you will reign over every place on earth, and will be honored by the angels and archangels. Then you will acquire them as friends and fellow servants, and you will acquire places in heaven above. "~St Sylvanus

At the same time, we are practitioners of the christian faith, whatever our individual traditions, and the opinions stated in our differing scriptures offer us our only jumping off point.

 

[Ed Bana]

I call this spiritual discernment. Looking pass all the errors of man and his religious man made creeds dogmas and letting God’s Word not man’s systems lead and guide us into all truth. Deep down God’s Spirit has shown me who Jesus is. Not who religious man wants me to belief what they think he is.

The problem with these three words is people like you who are so intellectual and bias you think you have God all figured out. God’s Word is divine and there in absolutely no room for error.


aion or aionios

These two words are translated as well as mis-translated many ways: eternal age, ages of ages, course, world, , since the world began, from the beginning of the world, ever, forever, forever and ever, for evermore, while the world standeth, world without end, and, never.

Now I understand what the bias translators have interpreted the Bible using these two words as mentioned above but it just does not add up in the Bible. God’s Word is perfect; with out error; but it is full of errors if we believe these translator and or translations
The word eternal, forever and everlasting occur when there is no way they can possibly mean without end. Jonah was in the belly of the fish
&#12288; Jonah2:6 "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever"
But Jonah was in the fish for three days and nights.
But he was in the fish only three days and three nights!

&#12288;
When a Hebrew slave loved his master so much that he became a bond servant something where for the rest of his life he dedicated his life to his master out of the love for his master this would have to end at the end of his life.
Ex. 21:6 His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever"
But the bias religious translators with their bias mindset claimed this slave would serve forever. The translators disregarded the fact that the man would die long long before forever had a chance.


When King Solomon finally built his temple built his temple he proclaimed: 1 Kings 8:13 "I have surely built You a house to dwell in, a settled place for You to abide in for ever"
The Lord answered Solomon,
1 Kings 9:3 "I have heard your prayer and supplication that you have made before Me: I have hallowed this house, which you have built, to put My name there for ever" (I Kgs. 9:3).
But we all know that Solomon’s temple only last a mere 400 years which is a long way from forever. God knew this and there is no way God said it would last forever. If you look at the Hebrew the Hebrew word “olan” or age was used which simply means age.
OT:5769
`owlam (o-lawm'); or `olam (o-lawm'); from OT:5956; properly, concealed, i.e. the vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future), i.e. (practically) eternity; frequentatively, adverbial (especially with prepositional prefix) always:
&#12288;
KJV - alway (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+without end). Compare OT:5331, OT:5703.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
1 Kings 8:13
1129 I&#12288;have&#12288;surely
1129 built&#12288;thee
1004 an&#12288;house
2073 to&#12288;dwell
3807 a in,
4349 a&#12288;settled&#12288;place
3427 for&#12288;thee&#12288;to&#12288;abide&#12288;in
5769 for&#12288;ever.
(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright (c) 1994 by Biblesoft)

Now we can see the bias religious translators tell us one thing. But God’s Word tells us the truth if we have spiritual ears to hear not religious ears to defend.

I did not cut and run. I was clear that I do not debate links. If you want to post a similar argument in your own words and understanding then I will be happy to address it.

 

[Ed Bana]

Amen. But religious men want you to believe Jesus the lamb of God is going to torture billions and billions of lost souls to believe.

It seems more often than not when I use the term "For ever" it is a limited sense. I mostly use it in a figurative sense. For instance "It took you forever to get ready to go out" or perhaps "At the top of this tall building I can see for ever!" this is another good one because the term doesn't even refer to time, but distance and is still figurative.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I disagree with Hentenza because he reads scripture through his denominational glasses. He changes the meanings of words to fit his theology. To him, Apoleia cannot mean destruction because he already "knows" that those who have been "destroyed" are not destroyed but living forever in torment in hell. So when he sees the word "apoleia" he sees torment, or "loss of well being". To do otherwise would be to admit that the bible doesn't fit his theology, and he is not ready to do that.

So when he says that we use "unwarranted expansion of the sematic field" I protest because that is precisely what he is doing.

But destruction of the soul and eternal torment of the spirit can co-exists. It is not a contradiction.

 

[Ed Bana]

What is the soul?
&#12288;
Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

But destruction of the soul and eternal torment of the spirit can co-exists. It is not a contradiction.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Matthew 10:28 speaks of soul death, but not spirit death. Jude 1:12 speaks of soul death (the second death) while Jude 1:13 talks about the spirit of the damned wandering in nether gloom for eternity.

...twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness (nether gloom) has been reserved forever.
​

 

[Soulgazer]

There are differing definitions of what constitutes each. What we settled upon, is the "Soul" is that part of you that registers "I AM". It is the seat of your consciousness, and arbitrator of your decision making process. When we talk of your "Spirit", it is that animating force, that if it were absent, you would not even be able to stand or think; it is also subject to many differing demands, from your thinking process to the sex drive. Yet it is not one thing; it can be counterfeited. "Fake sincerity and you can fake anything". It can be confused "We can win a nuclear exchange because God is on our side", and it can be good "Peace on earth", or it can be evil "Kill them all, God will know His own".

""And he made a plan with his powers. He sent his angels to the daughters of men, that they might take some of them for themselves and raise offspring for their enjoyment. And at first they did not succeed. When they had no success, they gathered together again and they made a plan together. They created a counterfeit spirit, who resembles the Spirit who had descended, so as to pollute the souls through it. And the angels changed themselves in their likeness into the likeness of their mates (the daughters of men), filling them with the spirit of darkness, which they had mixed for them, and with evil. They brought gold and silver and a gift and copper and iron and metal and all kinds of things. And they steered the people who had followed them into great troubles, by leading them astray with many deceptions. They (the people) became old without having enjoyment. They died, not having found truth and without knowing the God of truth. And thus the whole creation became enslaved forever, from the foundation of the world until now. And they took women and begot children out of the darkness according to the likeness of their spirit. And they closed their hearts, and they hardened themselves through the hardness of the counterfeit spirit until now."~Secret John

"Because it is not the flesh which yearns for the soul. For without the soul the body does not sin, just as the soul is not saved without the Spirit. But if the soul is saved when it is without evil, and if the spirit also is saved, then the body becomes sinless. For it is the spirit which animates the soul, but it is the body which kills it - that is, it is the soul which kills itself. Truly I say to you, the Father will not forgive the sin of the soul at all, nor the guilt of the flesh. For none of those who have worn the flesh will be saved. For do you imagine that many have found the Kingdom of Heaven? Blessed is the one who has seen himself as a fourth one in Heaven."~Secret James

 

[Ed Bana]

You sure do not give us much to see what you are speaing of? How about posting the verses and explain yourself?

Matthew 10:28 speaks of soul death, but not spirit death. Jude 1:12 speaks of soul death (the second death) while Jude 1:13 talks about the spirit of the damned wandering in nether gloom for eternity.

...twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness (nether gloom) has been reserved forever.
​

 

[served]

Whether you mean an age or multiple ages does not change the fact that you are arguing that it ends. You are twisting yourself in knots trying to comprehend this simply because there is no biblical reference to support it.

It could end! The ages could be unlimited. Not necessarily but time could seize to exist for all we know, time may stop...age is more biblical than for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever. Who ever used for ever and ever before it was mistranslated in the bible? Show me some historical literature in english.

Was Sodom ever physically restored? Ezekiel is using the example of the wickedness of Sodom by comparing the sins of Jerusalem to them. Sodom was destroyed while the Israelites where exiled. Israel can physically be restored while Sodom can not.

Again, Jude is using the example of the fiery destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as types of the eternal punishment of the wicked. You continue to miss the word "example" in Jude.

Yes and in that example Sodom is still not burning, only for an age...

That is not what the verse says but that God continues (aorist active nominative) to fulfill them for eternity. The fact that there is no suffering in Heaven is proof of God's continual fulfillment of His promise. For example, God will love us forever. Does that mean that once saved and in heaven we no longer need God's love?

How will we need anything, we will be part of GOD (all in all) and 100% righteous..

 

[trident343]

Jude 1:13 talks about the spirit of the damned wandering in nether gloom for eternity.

...twice dead. They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness (nether gloom) has been reserved forever.
​

LOL. This is a terrible exegesis of the scripture and a good example of a dishonest attempt to try and prove the Eternal Torment position. Sorry but its true, and I am rather sick of ET camp scripture twisting support for their position rather than building a solid case.

Like most false arguments the context is ignored and false premises are assumed. There is no mention in the book of Jude of a person having a spirit or being a spirit. The only mention of the word is in verse 19 where it says the wicked people mentioned in the context do not have the spirit
Jude 1:19
"These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit."

Our Lutheran friend asserts the following "Jude 1:13 talks about the spirit of the damned wandering in nether gloom for eternity."

Anybody who reads the context and is half honest can see this is false. The book of Jude was written to believers as an exhortation to defend the faith from false brethren who have crept in to usurp the faith

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Notice verse 12 "These are spots in your feasts.....;wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

There grammar and word usage being used shows that the wicked men mentioned are currently in a state of being wandering stars, not that they will be sentenced to wander in darkness for ever.

BTW - If I were to describe figuratively the state of annihilation or non-existence to somebody, I could think of no better way to do it than use permanent Darkness as a symbol.

 

[Hentenza]

Nonsense. That approach leads us down the path of superstition, a very dangerous path indeed.

lol This from a gnostic. A confirmed heresy.

We already know that the earth was billions of years old when man evolved onto it.

No it isn't and man did not evolve. You are simply listening to what the mostly atheistic scientific community are feeding you. Most of the same data that scientist use to support evolution also supports a creator. At the end of the day is by which framework one examines the data. One mainly atheistic group interprets it by a strictly naturalistic view (actually a priori) while others like myself do not remove God from His creation.

This proves the genesis mythology to be not literal, but analogy.

No it does not. The creation account in Genesis is historical narrative.

 

[Hentenza]

It seems more often than not when I use the term "For ever" it is a limited sense. I mostly use it in a figurative sense. For instance "It took you forever to get ready to go out" or perhaps "At the top of this tall building I can see for ever!" this is another good one because the term doesn't even refer to time, but distance and is still figurative.

Context drives the meaning of a word. Tell me, do you believe that those saved by the blood of Jesus will spend "for ever" with Him?

 

[Soulgazer]

lol This from a gnostic. A confirmed heresy.



No it isn't and man did not evolve. You are simply listening to what the mostly atheistic scientific community are feeding you. Most of the same data that scientist use to support evolution also supports a creator. At the end of the day is by which framework one examines the data. One mainly atheistic group interprets it by a strictly naturalistic view (actually a priori) while others like myself do not remove God from His creation.





No it does not. The creation account in Genesis is historical narrative.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL

I have some beachfront property in Arizona I'll make you a good price on!

I don't believe in stone age camp fire tales, talking snakes, Santa Clause or the tooth fairy, it doesn't bother me to have a black cat cross my path, and I don't go out of my way not to walk under a ladder either. If you want to have a conversation fine, but don't yank my chain.