I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell.

[Ed Bana]

If you read the post Greek is just part of it. You can quote Greek all day long and miss the message,

So you agree with Crazy Ed? I think that you are just jealous that there is someone around who clearly knows more about Greek than you do.

And I'm sure that if there were no mutual foe, Ed Bana would find you to be a heretic too, Timothew. I know for a fact that you are not as crazy as Crazy Ed, so clearly your siding with him is purely a matter of political convenience.

 

[mdancin4theLord]

Why did Christ have to come?

 

[Ed Bana]

You say in one sentence John was in Spirit. You turn around in the next sentence and tell us you are exegesis is to explore the meaning of the text which then leads to discovering its significance or relevance. But you give no scriptural reference to these so called future literal events and that they are not spiritual. You are assuming these events are carnal I guess?

1. I have offered you the exegetical rendition of several verses. You have not addressed it and just accuse me of spin. If you can't address the clarity of the grammar then the one spinning must be you.

2. I am not Catholic. I could care less what the pope thinks.

3. I have not used "T"radition to present my arguments but scripture. I do not believe in the coauthority of "T"radition as some do. So accusing me of using "T"radition when I have not is quite dishonest.

4. The rest of your post is mere rambling.

 

[Ed Bana]

To reverse the curse all born in Adam will be made alive in Christ. He did not have to He was ordained to come long before there ever was a sinner.

Why did Christ have to come?

 

[Timothew]

So you agree with Crazy Ed? I think that you are just jealous that there is someone around who clearly knows more about Greek than you do.

And I'm sure that if there were no mutual foe, Ed Bana would find you to be a heretic too, Timothew. I know for a fact that you are not as crazy as Crazy Ed, so clearly your siding with him is purely a matter of political convenience.

I don't think its very nice to call someone "Crazy Ed".

I am jealous of people who know more about greek than I do, in the sense that I admire folks with more knowledge than I have and I want to learn to be fluent in greek. I've been learning greek for two and a half years.

I disagree with Hentenza because he reads scripture through his denominational glasses. He changes the meanings of words to fit his theology. To him, Apoleia cannot mean destruction because he already "knows" that those who have been "destroyed" are not destroyed but living forever in torment in hell. So when he sees the word "apoleia" he sees torment, or "loss of well being". To do otherwise would be to admit that the bible doesn't fit his theology, and he is not ready to do that.

So when he says that we use "unwarranted expansion of the sematic field" I protest because that is precisely what he is doing.

 

[theWaris1]

Nice but then you like many here simply just ignore the grammar. Typical.

That is what many here are saying about you. You interpret scriptures around you beliefs instead of allowing the words to prove your beliefs..

You're not alone in doing this. It's very common with those who don't read but learn from sermons. I suggest you Pray for spiritual discernment as we all should do that.

 

[Hentenza]

I'm still talking about "forever and ever" that you are not addressing as to be translated ages. I can't be any clearer than giving you actual scripture that proves "for ever and ever" are not scriptural. You said it yourself..."There are two types of reigns"
Would it be fair to say that these are 2 different ages? Aions?

In the context of salvation and damnation there is only one biblical way. Secondly, I did address "forever and ever" in the post that you responded to but you didn't respond to what I wrote about "forever and ever". Lets examine some other examples of "forever and ever" and see if replacing it with ages makes sense.

Phil. 4:20
Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Now to our God and Father be the glory for an age . Amen.

Do you think that glory of God has an end?

2 Tim. 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory for an age. Amen.

Do you think that glory of God has an end?

Eph. 3:21
to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the glory of Christ Jesus has an end?

Heb. 13:21
equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the glory of Christ Jesus has an end?

1 Peter 4:11
Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the glory and dominion of God the Father and Christ Jesus has an end?

1 Peter 5:11
To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen.

To Him be dominion for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the dominion of Christ Jesus has an end?

Rev. 1:6
and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father— to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father— to Him be the glory and the dominion for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the glory and dominion of God the Father has an end?

Rev. 4:9
And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,

And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives for an age,

Do you think that God's life comes to an end?

Rev. 4:10
the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, andwill worship Him who lives for an age, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Do you think that God's life comes to an end?

Rev. 5:13
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion for an age.”

Do you think that God and Christ Jesus blessing, and honor, and glory, and dominion come to an end?

Rev. 7:12
saying, “ Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

saying, “ Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

Do you think that God's blessing, and wisdom, and glory, and power and might come to an end?

Rev. 10:6
and swore by Him who lives forever and ever........

and swore by Him who lives for age.........

Do you think that God only lives for an age?

Rev. 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.

Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives for an age.

Do you think that God only lives for an age?


Rev. 22:5
And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign for an age.

Do you think that God and Christ's reign in the new Earth has an end?


These verses trump your belief of a blanket definition for "aionios" as "for an age" or "ages". The definitions of words are drawn from the words semantic field in conjunction with the context. There are very few words that have only one meaning in all contexts and aionios is not one of them.

A couple more examples....

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

They are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. That is the abode of the wicked.

The greek says experiencing the justice of fire eonian. How long is this fire to last? Eternally? NO! There is no fire burning in Palestine since the days of Sodom anywhere. Its under the sea! And then they turn to their former state Ezekiel 16:55.

The verse says not implies nothing about a fire still burning in Palestine. The verse sets forth the destruction by fire as an example of the ongoing punishment of eternal fire. The word δεῖγμα (example) makes this clear.

and....

2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

So he has given us everlasting console and hope? Our console and hope will never be fulfilled as it lasts an eternity?

I don't know about you but I would prefer if God does console us for ever and that our hope lasts forever. I would prefer that both do not come to an end.

God will fulfill both eternally not that they will never be fulfilled. Both verbs in this verse (ἀγαπήσας and δοὺ&#962 are rendered exactly the same in the aorist active nominative which means that it is an ongoing action so the verb can not modify αἰωνίαν as something that ends.

 

[Hentenza]

Your not agreeing with me but you do agree John was in Spirit. Yes I am spiritualizing the most spiritual book ever written. John was in spirit that is a scriptural term. exegesis Is not a scriptural term which simple means to explore the meaning of the text which then leads to discovering its significance or relevance. You are ignoring the major evidence and assuming evidence not written. Yes you are exegesis or another way of putting it carnalizing it bring it down to Hentenza non spiritual exegesis level.




One moment you tell me John was in spirit and then the next sentence you tell me the Book is not spiritual. Well show me it is not spiritual with God's Word seeing you believe this?




Really? Chapter and verse. Note the phrase, "For the time is at hand..."　 He does not relegate this to a far-off future series of events, but it becomes experientially worked out in each of us as He draws us to Himself, conforming us to His image.　 As Jesus stated, "The　 hour comes, and now is..." (John 4:23).　 For those whom He is drawing to Himself as the firstfruits of His new creation order, it is not only coming, but already begun.　 The in working　 process has started, and must continue until it is fully consummated, to His glory.　 So, for the multitudes it is coming, for the firstfruits it is on now, as they "taste the good Word of God, and the powers of the world (age) to come.'' (Hebrews 6:5).

1. John was in spirit. Revelation, like all other books of scripture, contain spiritual things but it is not merely a spiritual book. We are going to continue to disagree here.

2. I am not making the claim that Revelation is merely a spiritual bool so it is your burden of proof.

3. Jesus return is also "at hand'. Has Jesus returned yet?

 

[Hentenza]

You say in one sentence John was in Spirit. You turn around in the next sentence and tell us you are exegesis is to explore the meaning of the text which then leads to discovering its significance or relevance. But you give no scriptural reference to these so called future literal events and that they are not spiritual. You are assuming these events are carnal I guess?

If you consider all historical events in scripture to be carnal then I guess they are. The events foretold in Revelations will be felt by all carnally. Of course, carnal not only means "of the pleasures of the flesh" so I am not sure what you mean by carnal.

BTW- The scriptural references ARE the book of Revelation.

 

[Ed Bana]

The problem with these three words is people like you who are so intellectual and bias you think you have God all figured out. God’s Word is divine and there in absolutely no room for error.


aion or aionios

These two words are translated as well as mis-translated many ways: eternal age, ages of ages, course, world, , since the world began, from the beginning of the world, ever, forever, forever and ever, for evermore, while the world standeth, world without end, and, never.
Now I understand what the bias translators have interpreted the Bible using these two words as mentioned above but it just does not add up in the Bible. God’s Word is perfect; with out error; but it is full of errors if we believe these translator and or translations
　
The term forever (and its equivalents, eternal and everlasting) often occurs when it cannot possibly mean unending. In the story of Jonah one is surprised to hear him say while in the belly of the fish, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever" (Jon. 2:6). But he was in the fish only three days and three nights!
When a Hebrew slave loved his master and did not wish to go free at the end of the seventh year, we read, "... His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever" (Ex. 21:6). Of course, that couldn't be longer than his life span.
Again, when Solomon built the temple unto the Lord, he began his prayer of dedication with the statement, "I have surely built You a house to dwell in, a settled place for You to abide in for ever" (I Kgs. 8:13). And the Lord answered Solomon, "I have heard your prayer and supplication that you have made before Me: I have hallowed this house, which you have built, to put My name there for ever" (I Kgs. 9:3). But Solomon's temple lasted for only about 400 years! And it was never in God's mind to dwell there for ever!
Here is something that ought to be clear to any intelligent, honest man. A word that is used to mean in one case three days and nights, in another case to mean a man's lifetime, and in still another case to mean a period of about four centuries, surely does not mean unending or eternal, no matter what English word is used to translate it. USAGE DETERMINES MEANING.
Another illustration is the Aaronic priesthood. According to the King James version, Aaron and his sons were anointed as priests for ever. It says, "Their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations" (Ex. 40:15). Yet we read in Heb. 7:11-18 that the Aaronic priesthood is CHANGED to that of Melchizedek. "Now if perfection had been attainable by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people were given the Law, why was it further necessary that there should arise another and different kind of Priest, one after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed after the order of Aaron? For when there is a CHANGE IN THE PRIESTHOOD, there is of necessity an alteration of the law concerning the priesthood as well. For it is obvious that our Lord sprang from the tribe of Judah, and Moses mentioned nothing about priests in connection with that tribe. So, a previous physical regulation and command is CANCELLED because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness" (Amplified Bible).
Amazing, isn't it, that the priesthood which was ordained for ever has been CANCELLED! There would be no contradiction if the statement in Exodus were translated as it should be, "to the age throughout their generations." That is, throughout their generations AS LONG AS THAT AGE LASTED. In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures which Jesus and His disciples used, the Greek word AION was the word used for the Hebrew OLAM. According to Hebrew and Greek usage, therefore, these words mean a period of time, a period of unknown length, the duration of which is determined by the fact or condition or person to which the term is applied.
So if you are going to try and prove God is going torture billions and billions of God’s people he never called you better prove it with the Word of God not the Bible which is full of man made errors.

In the context of salvation and damnation there is only one biblical way. Secondly, I did address "forever and ever" in the post that you responded to but you didn't respond to what I wrote about "forever and ever". Lets examine some other examples of "forever and ever" and see if replacing it with ages makes sense.

Phil. 4:20
Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Now to our God and Father be the glory for an age . Amen.

Do you think that glory of God has an end?

2 Tim. 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory for an age. Amen.

Do you think that glory of God has an end?

Eph. 3:21
to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the glory of Christ Jesus has an end?

Heb. 13:21
equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the glory of Christ Jesus has an end?

1 Peter 4:11
Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the glory and dominion of God the Father and Christ Jesus has an end?

1 Peter 5:11
To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen.

To Him be dominion for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the dominion of Christ Jesus has an end?

Rev. 1:6
and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father— to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father— to Him be the glory and the dominion for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the glory and dominion of God the Father has an end?

Rev. 4:9
And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,

And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives for an age,

Do you think that God's life comes to an end?

Rev. 4:10
the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, andwill worship Him who lives for an age, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Do you think that God's life comes to an end?

Rev. 5:13
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion for an age.”

Do you think that God and Christ Jesus blessing, and honor, and glory, and dominion come to an end?

Rev. 7:12
saying, “ Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

saying, “ Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

Do you think that God's blessing, and wisdom, and glory, and power and might come to an end?

Rev. 10:6
and swore by Him who lives forever and ever........

and swore by Him who lives for age.........

Do you think that God only lives for an age?

Rev. 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.

Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives for an age.

Do you think that God only lives for an age?


Rev. 22:5
And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign for an age.

Do you think that God and Christ's reign in the new Earth has an end?


These verses trump your belief of a blanket definition for "aionios" as "for an age" or "ages". The definitions of words are drawn from the words semantic field in conjunction with the context. There are very few words that have only one meaning in all contexts and aionios is not one of them.






They are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. That is the abode of the wicked.




The verse says not implies nothing about a fire still burning in Palestine. The verse sets forth the destruction by fire as an example of the ongoing punishment of eternal fire. The word δεῖγμα (example) makes this clear.


I don't know about you but I would prefer if God does console us for ever and that our hope lasts forever. I would prefer that both do not come to an end.

God will fulfill both eternally not that they will never be fulfilled. Both verbs in this verse (ἀγαπήσας and δοὺ&#962 are rendered exactly the same in the aorist active nominative which means that it is an ongoing action so the verb can not modify αἰωνίαν as something that ends.

 

[Hentenza]

That is what many here are saying about you. You interpret scriptures around you beliefs instead of allowing the words to prove your beliefs..

Nope. I am using the words TO shape my beliefs not the other way around.

You're not alone in doing this. It's very common with those who don't read but learn from sermons. I suggest you Pray for spiritual discernment as we all should do that.

I can't help but laugh at this. Which one of my posts gives you the impression that I learn from sermons? I have studied the original languages so that I can learn directly from the text not from sermons. I read and study so that I can learn apart from sermons.

 

[Ed Bana]

1. John was in spirit. Revelation, like all other books of scripture, contain spiritual things but it is not merely a spiritual book. We are going to continue to disagree here.

2. I am not making the claim that Revelation is merely a spiritual bool so it is your burden of proof.

Actually it is your burden of proof. I already showed you John was in Spirit on the Lord's day and you agreed. Now you show us all John was being carnal, literal on the Lord's day in the Book of Revelation. The MOST SPIRITUAL BOOK EVER WRITTEN.

3. Jesus return is also "at hand'. Has Jesus returned yet?

Yes He is He is with in us.

And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks, and in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks one like unto the Son of man" (Rev. 1:12-13). The candlestick realm is the church realm! THAT’S WHERE THE MESSAGE IS!

The message is not out there, not from Christ in some far-off heaven somewhere, not from an angel from heaven, not from Christ outside of us. The message is within.

The voice of the Son of God is the voice in the churches, within those in the churches who are walking in the Spirit and seeing and hearing by the Spirit. Weren’t nearly all of us in the churches when first we heard the Voice? It’s among us! It’s in our midst!

The kingdom of God is within you!

The Spirit of the Son is within you! God dwelleth in you!

The Holy Ghost is within you!

The word of Christ dwelleth richly in you!

The anointing abideth within you!

The voice of the Son of God is heard from within!

 

[served]

In the context of salvation and damnation there is only one biblical way. Secondly, I did address "forever and ever" in the post that you responded to but you didn't respond to what I wrote about "forever and ever". Lets examine some other examples of "forever and ever" and see if replacing it with ages makes sense.

Phil. 4:20
Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Now to our God and Father be the glory for an age . Amen.

Do you think that glory of God has an end?

2 Tim. 4:18
The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed, and will bring me safely to His heavenly kingdom; to Him be the glory for an age. Amen.

Do you think that glory of God has an end?

Eph. 3:21
to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.

to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the glory of Christ Jesus has an end?

Heb. 13:21
equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the glory of Christ Jesus has an end?

1 Peter 4:11
Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Whoever speaks, is to do so as one who is speaking the utterances of God; whoever serves is to do so as one who is serving by the strength which God supplies; so that in all things God may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom belongs the glory and dominion for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the glory and dominion of God the Father and Christ Jesus has an end?

1 Peter 5:11
To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen.

To Him be dominion for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the dominion of Christ Jesus has an end?

Rev. 1:6
and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father— to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father— to Him be the glory and the dominion for an age. Amen.

Do you think that the glory and dominion of God the Father has an end?

Rev. 4:9
And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,

And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives for an age,

Do you think that God's life comes to an end?

Rev. 4:10
the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, andwill worship Him who lives for an age, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Do you think that God's life comes to an end?

Rev. 5:13
And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.”

And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion for an age.”

Do you think that God and Christ Jesus blessing, and honor, and glory, and dominion come to an end?

Rev. 7:12
saying, “ Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

saying, “ Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”

Do you think that God's blessing, and wisdom, and glory, and power and might come to an end?

Rev. 10:6
and swore by Him who lives forever and ever........

and swore by Him who lives for age.........

Do you think that God only lives for an age?

Rev. 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives forever and ever.

Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who lives for an age.

Do you think that God only lives for an age?


Rev. 22:5
And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.

And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign for an age.

Do you think that God and Christ's reign in the new Earth has an end?


These verses trump your belief of a blanket definition for "aionios" as "for an age" or "ages". The definitions of words are drawn from the words semantic field in conjunction with the context. There are very few words that have only one meaning in all contexts and aionios is not one of them.






They are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. That is the abode of the wicked.




The verse says not implies nothing about a fire still burning in Palestine. The verse sets forth the destruction by fire as an example of the ongoing punishment of eternal fire. The word δεῖγμα (example) makes this clear.


I don't know about you but I would prefer if God does console us for ever and that our hope lasts forever. I would prefer that both do not come to an end.

God will fulfill both eternally not that they will never be fulfilled. Both verbs in this verse (ἀγαπήσας and δοὺ&#962 are rendered exactly the same in the aorist active nominative which means that it is an ongoing action so the verb can not modify αἰωνίαν as something that ends.

Your saying for an "age" I'm saying multiple "ages". You nor I know the plans of GOD and what he will do with some of these ages. Ages may not exist anymore after we have been dwelling with GOD for multiple ages. I don't know, you don't know. But really your playing with my words, you keep saying "an age" or "one age" . I did not say that.

They suffered the vengeance of fire literally on earth!

Then they were restored, not fire for ever..
Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

con·sole verb
transitive verb
: to alleviate the grief, sense of loss, or trouble of : comfort <console a widow>

1hope verb \&#712;h&#333;p\
hopedhop·ing
Definition of HOPE
intransitive verb
1
: to cherish a desire with anticipation <hopes for a promotion>

So we will have grief and a sense of loss for eternity that needs alleviating, for ever? And we are always hoping with desire and anticipating things for ever?

 

[Hentenza]

The problem with these three words is people like you who are so intellectual and bias you think you have God all figured out. God’s Word is divine and there in absolutely no room for error.


aion or aionios

These two words are translated as well as mis-translated many ways: eternal age, ages of ages, course, world, , since the world began, from the beginning of the world, ever, forever, forever and ever, for evermore, while the world standeth, world without end, and, never.
Now I understand what the bias translators have interpreted the Bible using these two words as mentioned above but it just does not add up in the Bible. God’s Word is perfect; with out error; but it is full of errors if we believe these translator and or translations
&#12288;
The term forever (and its equivalents, eternal and everlasting) often occurs when it cannot possibly mean unending. In the story of Jonah one is surprised to hear him say while in the belly of the fish, "I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever" (Jon. 2:6). But he was in the fish only three days and three nights!
When a Hebrew slave loved his master and did not wish to go free at the end of the seventh year, we read, "... His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him for ever" (Ex. 21:6). Of course, that couldn't be longer than his life span.
Again, when Solomon built the temple unto the Lord, he began his prayer of dedication with the statement, "I have surely built You a house to dwell in, a settled place for You to abide in for ever" (I Kgs. 8:13). And the Lord answered Solomon, "I have heard your prayer and supplication that you have made before Me: I have hallowed this house, which you have built, to put My name there for ever" (I Kgs. 9:3). But Solomon's temple lasted for only about 400 years! And it was never in God's mind to dwell there for ever!
Here is something that ought to be clear to any intelligent, honest man. A word that is used to mean in one case three days and nights, in another case to mean a man's lifetime, and in still another case to mean a period of about four centuries, surely does not mean unending or eternal, no matter what English word is used to translate it. USAGE DETERMINES MEANING.
Another illustration is the Aaronic priesthood. According to the King James version, Aaron and his sons were anointed as priests for ever. It says, "Their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations" (Ex. 40:15). Yet we read in Heb. 7:11-18 that the Aaronic priesthood is CHANGED to that of Melchizedek. "Now if perfection had been attainable by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people were given the Law, why was it further necessary that there should arise another and different kind of Priest, one after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one appointed after the order of Aaron? For when there is a CHANGE IN THE PRIESTHOOD, there is of necessity an alteration of the law concerning the priesthood as well. For it is obvious that our Lord sprang from the tribe of Judah, and Moses mentioned nothing about priests in connection with that tribe. So, a previous physical regulation and command is CANCELLED because of its weakness and ineffectiveness and uselessness" (Amplified Bible).
Amazing, isn't it, that the priesthood which was ordained for ever has been CANCELLED! There would be no contradiction if the statement in Exodus were translated as it should be, "to the age throughout their generations." That is, throughout their generations AS LONG AS THAT AGE LASTED. In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures which Jesus and His disciples used, the Greek word AION was the word used for the Hebrew OLAM. According to Hebrew and Greek usage, therefore, these words mean a period of time, a period of unknown length, the duration of which is determined by the fact or condition or person to which the term is applied.
So if you are going to try and prove God is going torture billions and billions of God’s people he never called you better prove it with the Word of God not the Bible which is full of man made errors.

1. The copy and paste of someone else's work without citing the source is against CF posting rules and against the law. You pasted this from Just What Do You Mean, Eternity? without any citation.

2. I don't debate links. I can easily post a link to refute yours but then that would not be my argument but merely one that I agree with.

 

[Ed Bana]

No. If it is not spiritual it is carnal. There is no in-betweens. God is not trying to scare us in this VERY VERY SPIRITAL BOOK. He is trying to show us something above human religious mind sets.

My half brother who is not a believer told m a few weeks ago he hated the Book of Revelation. I asked him why? He told me it was a book of doom and gloom. I then explained to him it was not it was a Book that was full of spiritual hidden symbolism.

I speaking of the carnal mind set of making God's Word earthy when it is spiritually. Your carnal religious mind set that brings God's Word down to your understanding instead of seeking asking and knocking for its deep secrets and mysteries.

No. The scritural reference is the "words" in the Book of Revelation. What they say and what they mean in the context of this very spirutual book.

Are you a spiritual man or a religious man. Do you see anything spiritual or does all things of God must fit within your religious mind set?

If you consider all historical events in scripture to be carnal then I guess they are. The events foretold in Revelations will be felt by all carnally. Of course, carnal not only means "of the pleasures of the flesh" so I am not sure what you mean by carnal.

BTW- The scriptural references ARE the book of Revelation.

 

[Ed Bana]

You are correct. I was looking for where I got that link I should of posted it.

Why is it when ever someone shows you are wrong using God's Word and these are direct passages in God's Word you refuse to even answer these truths. This is the third time you cut and run.

1. The copy and paste of someone else's work without citing the source is against CF posting rules and against the law. You pasted this from Just What Do You Mean, Eternity? without any citation.

2. I don't debate links. I can easily post a link to refute yours but then that would not be my argument but merely one that I agree with.

 

[Hentenza]

Your saying for an "age" I'm saying multiple "ages". You nor I know the plans of GOD and what he will do with some of these ages. Ages may not exist anymore after we have been dwelling with GOD for multiple ages. I don't know, you don't know. But really your playing with my words, you keep saying "an age" or "one age" . I did not say that.

Whether you mean an age or multiple ages does not change the fact that you are arguing that it ends. You are twisting yourself in knots trying to comprehend this simply because there is no biblical reference to support it.

They suffered the vengeance of fire literally on earth!

Then they were restored, not fire for ever..
Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.

Was Sodom ever physically restored? Ezekiel is using the example of the wickedness of Sodom by comparing the sins of Jerusalem to them. Sodom was destroyed while the Israelites where exiled. Israel can physically be restored while Sodom can not.

Again, Jude is using the example of the fiery destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as types of the eternal punishment of the wicked. You continue to miss the word "example" in Jude.

con·sole verb
transitive verb
: to alleviate the grief, sense of loss, or trouble of : comfort <console a widow>

1hope verb \&#712;h&#333;p\
hopedhop·ing
Definition of HOPE
intransitive verb
1
: to cherish a desire with anticipation <hopes for a promotion>

So we will have grief and a sense of loss for eternity that needs alleviating, for ever? And we are always hoping with desire and anticipating things for ever?

That is not what the verse says but that God continues (aorist active nominative) to fulfill them for eternity. The fact that there is no suffering in Heaven is proof of God's continual fulfillment of His promise. For example, God will love us forever. Does that mean that once saved and in heaven we no longer need God's love?

 

[Soulgazer]

I see a lot of peep's claiming that the Bible is "God's word". There is just no basis for that claim. None of the claimant's have yet been able to prove that the Bible is inviolate and without contradiction or error. It has certainly changed in content over the centuries.

I have to reject that claim as a valid statement.

You may use the Bible to prove that the individual writers either saw Hell as a place of eternal torment, or saw it as eternal dissolution, but please don't lump them all into one category, as they each had their own opinions.

Old testament writers in particularly, from the Moses branch, saw dead as dead. Rot in the ground worm food dead. No resurrection. No judgment day.

The only true basis for discerning the solution to the "Eternal Torment" or "Eternal Dissolution" debate is the nature of God. Jesus showed us the "nature of God"; "He who has seen me, has seen the Father". Enough independent writers in and out of the Bible, though they may differ in specific detail, confirm that most of early Christianity saw Jesus as the image of the Father that we may consider that to be a cornerstone of our faith.

So; from what we know of Jesus, would he, or would he not, spend his afternoon's pulling the wing's off flies? Anybody?

 

[Hentenza]

You are correct. I was looking for where I got that link I should of posted it.

Why is it when ever someone shows you are wrong using God's Word and these are direct passages in God's Word you refuse to even answer these truths. This is the third time you cut and run.

I did not cut and run. I was clear that I do not debate links. If you want to post a similar argument in your own words and understanding then I will be happy to address it.

 

[Hentenza]

I see a lot of peep's claiming that the Bible is "God's word". There is just no basis for that claim. None of the claimant's have yet been able to prove that the Bible is inviolate and without contradiction or error.

I have to reject that claim as valid.

You may use the Bible to prove that the individual writers either saw Hell as a place of eternal torment, or saw it as eternal dissolution, but please don't lump them all into one category, as they each had their own opinions.

You can reject the bible all you want but in this Christian website arguments from scripture are perfectly valid. Secondly, if you don't believe in the words of scripture then our arguments would come from different foundational frameworks so we will arrive no where. All of the biblical writers opine from the same framework which makes scripture consistent from start to finish.

Of course this argument is for another thread.