I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell.

[Hillsage]

We are given a finite mind that can judge finite concepts and ideas. We are not given a finite mind that can judge infinite concepts and ideas.

Maybe you have diagnosed your own problem. You need a new mind to understand what we understand.

1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

You correctly said that wrath was an attribute of God, but that is not his essence. God is love and even his wrath must have as its goal that which is consistent with love. God loves sinners and hates sin...unless you believe God changes.

Please don't respond to me, this is tiring enough just to read.

 

[Ed Bana]

Can you explain to me waht a anointed cherub is?

 

[theWaris1]

That includes you Ed. You have chosen to disregard the plain reading of scripture in lieu of your own understanding. This is called eisegesis.

I agree with ED often. You seem to disregard what is written in order to defend you're preconceived ideas that you developed over the years.

You even misread several comments I made and twisted into something I didn't say nor imply. You are trying to read to deeply and not taking the words as they are.

Torment does not prove Wrath. You only explain what you believe and not what the scriputres say in Rev 20.

When I was younger I would have agreed much more with you...

Step back and actually read the words before you. It just doesn't appear that you are reading much.

You disregarded what I said just to disagree saying. "Nope " and then misread the scriptures. The scriptures plainly say "Death and Hell(Hades) were cast into the lake of fire"

No sir, You are wrong and misread repeatedly what I wrote and what is in scriptures. I think this argument is a waste of time.

Good day
Peace

 

[served]

The wrath does not end in Rev. 15:1. Heck, the plagues continue through chapter 16. Do you believe that God's wrath toward satan has been fulfilled here in chapter 15?

Did you read 15:1? It did not say chapter 15 is where wrath ends. It simply says I saw the plagues which complete the wrath of GOD. I do not know what chapter 15 has to do with what I posted but yes this states an end to the wrath of GOD. Not an everlasting wrath.




We are commanded to both preach the gospel and make disciples of all nations. We, however, are not commanded to make believers. That is God's purview.



Indeed.



Are you an unrepentant sorcerer, whoremonger, murderer, idolater, or liar? If you trust in the lord (faith) then you have repented (changed your mind) and by the grace of God through faith you have been saved.

Yes I am a liar. I cannot stop lying daily, they may be small and subtle but truly I and most anyone I know lies. I do not have the will to change my mind. God changes my mind, I repent with GOD's help not of my own we will either in this life or in our spiritual life. But most of us will be outside of the city of paradise, but not for eternity. I would think this is a good punishment to get us to truly repent don't you?



Yes, IF one takes the water of life. If one doesn't then they are lost.

Awesome! They are lost outside of the city right? Is their a time limit on taking the water of life freely>? If so show me where.

 

[Hentenza]

Maybe you have diagnosed your own problem. You need a new mind to understand what we understand.

1 Corinthians 2:16 "For who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Context would be nice.

You correctly said that wrath was an attribute of God, but that is not his essence. God is love and even his wrath must have as its goal that which is consistent with love. God loves sinners and hates sin...unless you believe God changes.

His attributes are His essence. Justice and wrath are complimentary of His love.

Please don't respond to me, this is tiring enough just to read.

lol Then don't address my posts.

 

[Hentenza]

Did you read 15:1? It did not say chapter 15 is where wrath ends. It simply says I saw the plagues which complete the wrath of GOD. I do not know what chapter 15 has to do with what I posted but yes this states an end to the wrath of GOD. Not an everlasting wrath.

You brought up chapter 15. No, is not the end of His wrath yet but the end of the plagues. His wrath continues until the judgment in chapter 20

Yes I am a liar. I cannot stop lying daily, they may be small and subtle but truly I and most anyone I know lies. I do not have the will to change my mind. God changes my mind, I repent with GOD's help not of my own we will either in this life or in our spiritual life. But most of us will be outside of the city of paradise, but not for eternity. I would think this is a good punishment to get us to truly repent don't you?

If you are His then Jesus already paid the price of your lies. However, punishment for the wicked is indeed eternal.

Matt. 25
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Same context, same aionios, same grammar. If punishment is not eternal then the righteous do not have eternal life either which would be anti gospel.

Awesome! They are lost outside of the city right? Is their a time limit on taking the water of life freely>? If so show me where.

Yes there is a time limit. Jesus sacrifice is only effective to those with faith. No faith no atonement. Faith, according to the writer of Hebrews, is "1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." (Heb. 11:1). After physical death faith is no longer possible.

And yes, they will spend eternity outside of the city walls in a place called the lake of fire (see Rev. 20 and Matt. 25).

 

[Ed Bana]

Yes context is very important. Why Does Jesus need to torture a baby goat??

I love this chapter in God’s Word. Symbolism begin in Genesis and are used in the NT to show us something deep.

“And HE will set the sheep on HIS right hand, but the goats on the left (hand)” (Matt. 25:33).

GOAT: Strong's #2055: eriphion (pronounced er-if'-ee-on)
from 2056; a kidling, i.e. (genitive case) goat (symbolically, WICKED PERSON):--goat.
Farming has always been a part of man be it now or in ancient times and a kid is a baby goat just like a ram is a male and ewe is a female sheep; the original language is “kid” and there is nothing wicked about a baby goat.
(eriphos or kid; baby goat)

The big difference between a baby goat and a sheep is their maturity level. Yes a baby sheep and a baby goat all drink milk but we are not addressing baby sheep; we are addressing a Sheep.

In scripture the main what we eat is what we believe. I would be glad to give to examples to back this us. This is one of main characteristic of a sheep and goat. Of course the nature is a big part of it. But the nature of a baby goat is not wicked; and I am sure one its main food source is milk which scriptural speaking is also for babes.

“When did we see you hungry or thirsty, and need of help?”
We need to see a contention; a goat nature is very hungry; problem is they will eat anything. On the other hand a sheep is a mature believe, a sheep is a very loyal to His master and eats only the best of the grasses. As a boy I notice the farmer would give the sheep the second and third cuttings of grass; full of leaves and substance. A cow would eat the first cutting the lesser of the hay crop, made up of stems and little leaf compared to the earlier cuttings. Of course a goat will eat any garbage as long as it is in front of his nose.

But a baby goat is a clean animal, yes it is immature, has a goat nature but all clean in all cases of scriptural reference and if anyone should know this it is you.

And Jesus being a Jew knew this to for he knew the law.

A sheep is more then a true believers. A sheep are Gods elect in scripture, they follow the lamb where ever he goes; they know him.
Now a goat would be those who are believers but are inmmature

John 10:4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
John 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

SO please explain to me why Jesus would have any need to torture a clean baby goat forever and ever?

Hentenza;
Matt. 25
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[Hentenza]

Can you explain to me waht a anointed cherub is?

Anointed= appointed or ordained.
Cherub= an order of angels. Ex. Cherubim (plural of cherub) where the order of angels that God positioned to guard the entrance of Eden after Adam and Eve were expelled. Their simile adorns the mercy seat of the Ark of the Covenant.

 

[Hentenza]

Yes context is very important. Why Does Jesus need to torture a baby goat??

I love this chapter in God’s Word. Symbolism begin in Genesis and are used in the NT to show us something deep.

“And HE will set the sheep on HIS right hand, but the goats on the left (hand)” (Matt. 25:33).

GOAT: Strong's #2055: eriphion (pronounced er-if'-ee-on)
from 2056; a kidling, i.e. (genitive case) goat (symbolically, WICKED PERSON):--goat.
Farming has always been a part of man be it now or in ancient times and a kid is a baby goat just like a ram is a male and ewe is a female sheep; the original language is “kid” and there is nothing wicked about a baby goat.
(eriphos or kid; baby goat)

The big difference between a baby goat and a sheep is their maturity level. Yes a baby sheep and a baby goat all drink milk but we are not addressing baby sheep; we are addressing a Sheep.

In scripture the main what we eat is what we believe. I would be glad to give to examples to back this us. This is one of main characteristic of a sheep and goat. Of course the nature is a big part of it. But the nature of a baby goat is not wicked; and I am sure one its main food source is milk which scriptural speaking is also for babes.

“When did we see you hungry or thirsty, and need of help?”
We need to see a contention; a goat nature is very hungry; problem is they will eat anything. On the other hand a sheep is a mature believe, a sheep is a very loyal to His master and eats only the best of the grasses. As a boy I notice the farmer would give the sheep the second and third cuttings of grass; full of leaves and substance. A cow would eat the first cutting the lesser of the hay crop, made up of stems and little leaf compared to the earlier cuttings. Of course a goat will eat any garbage as long as it is in front of his nose.

But a baby goat is a clean animal, yes it is immature, has a goat nature but all clean in all cases of scriptural reference and if anyone should know this it is you.

And Jesus being a Jew knew this to for he knew the law.

A sheep is more then a true believers. A sheep are Gods elect in scripture, they follow the lamb where ever he goes; they know him.
Now a goat would be those who are believers but are inmmature

John 10:4
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
John 10:27

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

SO please explain to me why Jesus would have any need to torture a clean baby goat forever and ever?

Your opinion is completely irrelevant to the text. Please address Matt. 25:46.

 

[Ed Bana]

So the Law of Moses is irrelevant??? Jesus was a Jew and knew the law.

Matt. 25: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Not at all. Does not the text speak of a goat and sheep being separated? A goat is a clean animal. So how come a goat is considered the wicked. Would not a pig be a better example of the wicked according to the Law of Moses? Jesus knew this.

But according to the text Jesus is going to torture a baby goat everlasting punishment?

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Why does Jesus need to torture a baby goat in an everlasting punishment?

Makes no sense.

Your opinion is completely irrelevant to the text. Please address Matt. 25:46.

 

[served]

Please address Matt. 25:46.

What is eternal life? or age abiding life?

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Some will be separated for an age of chastisement and the others an age of knowing the only true GOD.

Does 25:46 SAY an eternity of burning in the flames of hell? Did Jesus leave that little part out or are we assuming? I mean really! We are not saying the unrighteous have it easy at all. But we are also not damning them to a fire pit because we think its justice. Am I more compassionate than GOD??

 

[steve_bakr]

What is eternal life? or age abiding life?

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Some will be separated for an age of chastisement and the others an age of knowing the only true GOD.

Does 25:46 SAY an eternity of burning in the flames of hell? Did Jesus leave that little part out or are we assuming? I mean really! We are not saying the unrighteous have it easy at all. But we are also not damning them to a fire pit because we think its justice. Am I more compassionate than GOD??

Hello,

Since I just foined CF, could you fill me in on whether you don't believe hell is eternal? Or whether you don't believe in actual hellfire? Or both?

Thanks

 

[served]

Hello,

Since I just foined CF, could you fill me in on whether you don't believe hell is eternal? Or whether you don't believe in actual hellfire? Or both?

Thanks

Your correct and both are not scriptural. aion which has been mistranslated to eternal should be translated to an undetermined amount of time. There are many studies on this. Yet you can make the word eternal fit its still incorrect. As an example, "how much longer is for ever compared to for ever and ever" Is for ever not really for ever??? Is that why the extra ever? Something to think about, I can direct you to places that would give you a better explanation if your interested.

Time for work....

 

[Hillsage]

Context would be nice.

This response simply makes me think 'your mind' won't even let you admit you got caught with your pants down. I believe that "context" is no problem.

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

We may not have the mind to instruct him, but we certainly have the mind of Christ available to us to understand well enough to "judge all things". But that can only be done if we willingly avail ourselves to His 'infinite mind' instead of our 'carnal minded' finite thinking. But I do believe it's a choice we have to make.

His attributes are His essence. Justice and wrath are complimentary of His love.

I disagree, attributes come from his essence and in His 'being', "God IS spirit" while in His 'character' "God IS love". I looked and believe Webster's 1828 agrees with that statement. I also believe it is this same 'finite minded' view that is the root of your belief that God will end up being the biggest Hitler the universe has ever seen. His Auschwitz will not only be the largest one of the universe it will reveal His underlying hatred for those whom He previously loved and died for because it will be eternal...that is a sick minded view of love. Your god is not "the same yesterday today and forever" in his essence IMO...Your god does not hate sin, he hates sinners.

lol Then don't address my posts.

Maybe I was unclear. I wasn't "tiring" of reading just your posts. It's sort of been this whole site for the last week. Nothing seems to change. It is just the epitome of the religious spirit of Babylon being hashed back and forth. Fighting continuously over doctrines and creeds which have been fought over for centuries. To what avail I ask myself? And all the while a dying world looks upon such things with justifiable disdain.

And my comment requesting you to not post me back was in 'no way' meant as a 'put down'...it was just obvious that you had plenty of others on your plate. I was just pointing out what I believed was an obvious shortcoming you yourself proclaimed.

I still haven't even read the newest posts, and another page has been added, so once again 'no comment' would be fine with me. My eyes are still tired.

 

[Hentenza]

What is eternal life? or age abiding life?

So we don't spend eternity with Christ?

Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Yep.

Some will be separated for an age of chastisement and the others an age of knowing the only true GOD.

Nope. The gospel is clear that all that believe will have eternal life with the Son.

Does 25:46 SAY an eternity of burning in the flames of hell? Did Jesus leave that little part out or are we assuming?

Matt 25
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

This is the promise of eternal life, the kingdom.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

This is the destination of the wicked, eternal fire.

46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

This is specific as who goes where and for how long. Expansion of the semantic field outside of context is fallacious. Either the believer spends eternity with Christ and the wicked spend eternity in eternal punishment or neither spends eternity in either. Your position is inconsistent and untenable.

I mean really! We are not saying the unrighteous have it easy at all. But we are also not damning them to a fire pit because we think its justice. Am I more compassionate than GOD??

Ask Him when you are face to face with Him.

 

[Hentenza]

So the Law of Moses is irrelevant??? Jesus was a Jew and knew the law.

Matt. 25: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

Not at all. Does not the text speak of a goat and sheep being separated? A goat is a clean animal. So how come a goat is considered the wicked. Would not a pig be a better example of the wicked according to the Law of Moses? Jesus knew this.

But according to the text Jesus is going to torture a baby goat everlasting punishment?

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Why does Jesus need to torture a baby goat in an everlasting punishment?

Makes no sense.

Again, the goat is the imagery used for the wicked in Matt. 25 and is not in question since their judgment is that of the wicked.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

 

[LutheranMafia]

Hentenza, I have to say that I am completely blown away by your posts, your knowledge of Greek is amazing. I had to look up what aortist means, and several other words in your posts about Greek translation. The uproar against you is, I think, consistent with an irrational approach to the Bible, people wanting to make their own private interpretations without regard to any real scholarship on the matter.

 

[LutheranMafia]

So we don't spend eternity with Christ?

I gave 22 examples of "ever and ever" and Ed said he would not respond to a laundry list.

Saying that forever isn't actually forever is a favorite attack of those who are opposed to orthodoxy. I have given other examples where aion was used once, in conjunction with the phrase "without end", but it got lost in the sea of (what shall I call these people) morons with an opinion, who think they know better than any Biblical scholar.

 

[Hentenza]

This response simply makes me think 'your mind' won't even let you admit you got caught with your pants down. I believe that "context" is no problem.

Hardly.

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

We may not have the mind to instruct him, but we certainly have the mind of Christ available to us to understand well enough to "judge all things". But that can only be done if we willingly avail ourselves to His 'infinite mind' instead of our 'carnal minded' finite thinking. But I do believe it's a choice we have to make.

See, proof texting leads to incorrect hermeunetics. Did you read the previous verses namely vs. 10 to 13?

10 [d]For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, [e]combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. (bold mine)

Only the Spirit knows the thoughts of man except for man himself. However, ONLY the Spirit knows the thoughts of God. We only know what God has chosen to reveal to us through the Spirit. How can you judge what you could not possibly know?

I disagree, attributes come from his essence and in His 'being', "God IS spirit" while in His 'character' "God IS love". I looked and believe Webster's 1828 agrees with that statement.

All of His attributes proceed from His very nature. One can not just say that God is love and ignore that God is also justice. One can not say that God is justice and ignore that God is also love. One can not say that God is love but ignore that God is also all knowing. One can not say that God is all knowing and ignore that God is love. Etc. Etc.

All of His attributes compliment each other. One is not greater that the other since all of His attributes are absolute. There is no subjectivity in attributes. God's holiness compliments His righteousness perfectly. His jealousy compliments His perfection perfectly. His truthfulness compliments His goodness perfectly. His mercy compliments His wrath perfectly. It is the same with His metaphysical attributes. None obscure the other.

 

[Hentenza]

Hentenza, I have to say that I am completely blown away by your posts, your knowledge of Greek is amazing. I had to look up what aortist means, and several other words in your posts about Greek translation. The uproar against you is, I think, consistent with an irrational approach to the Bible, people wanting to make their own private interpretations without regard to any real scholarship on the matter.

Thank you brother. I've been studying both biblical Hebrew and koine Greek for a few years now. The key to understanding the text is to stay within the boundaries of the text including the contextual semantic field of the words definitions. It has been my experience that those that propose annihilation and its sister doctrine of universalism depart from the text and commit the fallacy of expansion of the semantic field. This has the effect of assigning meanings to words that the context simply does not and can not support. For example, the English word trunk has several meanings including the "nose" of an elephant or the storage compartment of a car. The proper meaning would be assigned by the context. I can not define trunk as the "nose" of an elephant if the context is about storing groceries in my car. It simply does not work.