I am quite taken aback

[JacksLadder]

So anyone if body and spirit cannot be seperated then how dose Paradise,Sheol,and Gehenna exist?

 

[snowbirdling]

So anyone if body and spirit cannot be seperated then how dose Paradise,Sheol,and Gehenna exist?

I don't see that as a problem, considering our world and universe are vastly unexplored and unknown... a material Paradise, Sheol, and Gehanna do not seem out of the question.

I am not arguing on behalf of non-evolution theories though. Personally I was raised to understand evolution as a very plausible theory. It doesn't conflict with my faith at all.

I am a little confused as to why this topic is so frightening to so many people? With or without evolution/creationism we are loved by God and being saved by His grace. We are surely not going to understand it all while we are here for such a short time.

 

[Incariol]

Humans are apes. An ape is a member of the superfamily Hominoidea, which contains the Great Apes, family Hominidae, and then subfamily Homininae, tribe Hominini, genus Homo and the species sapiens of which we are the only extant subspecies.

 

[jckstraw72]

So anyone if body and spirit cannot be seperated then how dose Paradise,Sheol,and Gehenna exist?

the body and spirit are separated at death, but that is an aberration.

 

[Megaloskhemos]

I think people shouldn't be so eager to express opinions and judgments on concepts about which they aren't suitably educated.

This sentiment applies equally in the cases of most laypeople critiquing science and most scientists thinking they are competent philosophers or theologians.


This topic always depresses me.

 

[Damaris]

Well, I'd never heard or known an Orthodox priest to believe this until now, and it was quite a shock to me, you see?

Many Orthodox don't interpret the first chapters of Genesis literally. Dr. Peter Bouteneff of St. Vladimir's Seminary wrote a book about the patristic understanding of Genesis.

 

[Dorothea]

I don't see that as a problem, considering our world and universe are vastly unexplored and unknown... a material Paradise, Sheol, and Gehanna do not seem out of the question.

I am not arguing on behalf of non-evolution theories though. Personally I was raised to understand evolution as a very plausible theory. It doesn't conflict with my faith at all.

I am a little confused as to why this topic is so frightening to so many people? With or without evolution/creationism we are loved by God and being saved by His grace. We are surely not going to understand it all while we are here for such a short time.

Well, to be honest, I couldn't care less about evolution when I was growing up. I remember being taught about it, and I just took it like I did with anything else regarding school subjects - no interest.

And really, it's never been an issue to me until just recently - actually just when I got to this part in Father Seraphim's book because I'd never delved that deeply into it. I've always believed the earth is way older than 8-10,000 years. I accepted what science found and such. The only thing I never really found believable is humans evolving from apes. Or even apes evolving from humans. Apes evolved into how and what they look like from human beings? I'm sorry, but I don't buy it.

There's no fear about it. Darwin's evolution was always a theory to me, not fact. Even when I wasn't a practicing Christian. Just never took it totally seriously. Didn't really care.

Anyhow, reading on this in the book on Father Seraphim Rose, I became somewhat interested in it.

 

[Dorothea]

Humans are apes. An ape is a member of the superfamily Hominoidea, which contains the Great Apes, family Hominidae, and then subfamily Homininae, tribe Hominini, genus Homo and the species sapiens of which we are the only extant subspecies.

Do apes have immortal souls? Do their souls go on to be with God? Apes are in the Image of God? Did it say so, or does it say in Genesis "Let's make man in Our image." It doesn't say "Let's make apes, primates or whatever in Our Image," or "Let's make apes and man into Our image."

I know apes are similar to us, but they are not the same.

 

[Dorothea]

Many Orthodox don't interpret the first chapters of Genesis literally. Dr. Peter Bouteneff of St. Vladimir's Seminary wrote a book about the patristic understanding of Genesis.

Yes, I know that, and there is no dogma on much because it's not specified, but that was more on the period of time - exact days or what have you and all. I don't know if the Orthodox clergy believe like some in the RCC that the story of Adam and Eve really didn't happen.

 

[Incariol]

Do apes have immortal souls? Do their souls go on to be with God? Apes are in the Image of God? Did it say so, or does it say in Genesis "Let's make man in Our image." It doesn't say "Let's make apes, primates or whatever in Our Image," or "Let's make apes and man into Our image."

I know apes are similar to us, but they are not the same.

Humans are apes, so yes, certain apes have immortal souls which go on to be with God, and are made in His image.

 

[Megaloskhemos]

Darwin's evolution was always a theory to me, not fact. Even when I wasn't a practicing Christian. Just never took it totally seriously. Didn't really care.

In the world of science, the term "theory" is used to refer to an explanation of how nature functions with very high credibility and backing. The wikipedia article actually has a very good explanation of this: Scientific theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Do apes have immortal souls? Do their souls go on to be with God? Apes are in the Image of God? Did it say so, or does it say in Genesis "Let's make man in Our image." It doesn't say "Let's make apes, primates or whatever in Our Image," or "Let's make apes and man into Our image."

I know apes are similar to us, but they are not the same.

In biology the term "ape" refers to orangutans, gibbons, bonobos, gorillas, chimpanzees, and humans. So in terms of science, human beings are apes; therefore, some apes (human beings) have immortal souls. I don't one can find any Christian who would argue that Christ died and was resurrected for the deification of gibbons or bonobos (apes). But Christ was for humans (also apes). There is no blurring of the line between the anthropic (man) and the bestial (animals).

One can freely contest the current taxonomic nomenclature in biology ("humans shouldn't be considered apes in biology"), but such an argument should be well substantiated scientific one. Because the topic is evolution, which is a scientific theory, the scientific definition of words should be adhered to.

 

[Dorothea]

Humans are apes, so yes, certain apes have immortal souls which go on to be with God, and are made in His image.

I'm sorry. I don't believe that. I have not read anything in Orthodoxy that says that. Even in the Animals and man book that is all about the parts of animals and man. You actually think apes are made in His Image and have immortal souls? I mean, I don't mean to laugh, but it sounds ridiculous. As much as I love animals, I know that they turn to dust afterwards, and their souls are not immortal.

I think there's science, and then there's beliefs pertaining to God, and sometimes the two are harmonious, and other times, they are not, and this is one of those times for me.

 

[Dorothea]

In the world of science, the term "theory" is used to refer to an explanation of how nature functions with very high credibility and backing. The wikipedia article actually has a very good explanation of this: Scientific theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



In biology the term "ape" refers to orangutans, gibbons, bonobos, gorillas, chimpanzees, and humans. So in terms of science, human beings are apes; therefore, some apes (human beings) have immortal souls. I don't one can find any Christian who would argue that Christ died and was resurrected for the deification of gibbons or bonobos (apes). But Christ was for humans (also apes). There is no blurring of the line between the anthropic (man) and the bestial (animals).

One can freely contest the current taxonomic nomenclature in biology ("humans shouldn't be considered apes in biology"), but such an argument should be well substantiated scientific one. Because the topic is evolution, which is a scientific theory, the scientific definition of words should be adhered to.

Sure, I get that science thinks this. I don't think it matches up with how God made man and animals.

 

[Dorothea]

I'm really done talking about this. I don't want to argue with everyone in here. I won't be changing my mind on the issue, so I ask that this ends in peace.

 

[Christ's_Warrior]

Humans are apes, so yes, certain apes have immortal souls which go on to be with God, and are made in His image.

Really? Please explain how you have come to such a conclusion. Have you visited heaven? Has God provided you with divine revelation?

Please explain why genetic similarity between us and apes infers evolution? We share 50-60% of DNA with bananas and we know we ain't a piece of fruit. A creator could and did create using a common template. Cars, trucks, motorcycles etc are very different but also extremely similar and it is typical for us, whom being created in Gods image, to use previously used technology to create something new, what makes us think that God didn't create life in this fashion?

I've also read somewhere that this 98% business is being challenged, but let's say it is, who cares? Isn't DNA used to produce protein and enzymes etc? So it apparently doesn't have much to do with what we look like. We also need to actually look around and see how truly different we are to any other form of life on earth and it is evidential and completely sensible to state that we are indeed different.

 

[Incariol]

Really? Please explain how you have come to such a conclusion. Have you visited heaven? Has God provided you with divine revelation?

No, I read my biology textbook. The part where it discusses the various systems of taxonomy was in Chapter 1.

Please explain why genetic similarity between us and apes infers evolution? We share 50-60% of DNA with bananas and we know we ain't a piece of fruit. A creator could and did create using a common template. Cars, trucks, motorcycles etc are very different but also extremely similar and it is typical for us, whom being created in Gods image, to use previously used technology to create something new, what makes us think that God didn't create life in this fashion?

I've also read somewhere that this 98% business is being challenged, but let's say it is, who cares? Isn't DNA used to produce protein and enzymes etc? So it apparently doesn't have much to do with what we look like.

Really? DNA produces mRNA, which is used to synthesize peptides, which form proteins, which make up cells, which make up your body.

We also need to actually look around and see how truly different we are to any other form of life on earth and it is evidential and completely sensible to state that we are indeed different.

That's nice. I was explaining nested cladistics, you appear to be talking about phylogenetics for some reason.

 

[Damaris]

Yes, I know that, and there is no dogma on much because it's not specified, but that was more on the period of time - exact days or what have you and all. I don't know if the Orthodox clergy believe like some in the RCC that the story of Adam and Eve really didn't happen.

My point is that there is nothing wrong or heretical about taking some form of evolutionary theory to be true.

 

[Starlightsobright]

Thank you, Lukaris. I found the fact that some of our clergy think this way very troubling to me. Will this grow so much that the mindset or thinking on this issue will be generally accepted and maybe even doctrine down the road that will have to be purged out with a council? Who knows.

I am sad that this is what they have stated they beleive especially on such a public stage as FB. We need to pray constantly for all those in the Clergy.

 

[jckstraw72]

Dorothea, God-willing a new edition of Fr. Seraphim's book, Genesis, Creation, and Early Man will be coming out soon. I would suggest you get your hands on a copy when it comes out to get a great view of what the Fathers had to say about Genesis. Fr. Seraphim lets the Fathers speak for themselves in his presentation.

 

[Knee V]

I guess my overall point in all of this is that we ought not place too much faith in the conclusions that some draw from the observations of certain fields of science, since the observations are based on relatively limited data, and that we ought to place more faith in the saints of the Church and what they have told us about creation and sin, as they relate directly to our salvation (sorry for the paragraph-length sentence).