Humans are nothing special?

[PsychoSarah]

I believe there are zillions of honest Christians and some lying scientists.

To be a bit nitpicky, seeing as the scientific process of evaluating and gathering information requires honesty to work properly, any scientist who actively lies about the data they gather 1, probably won't be finding much work in the field pretty quickly, and 2, has abandoned legitimate science.

 

[cerad]

Wow, nice way of misinterpreting of what I was saying. The poster was trying to deny the fact that the Bible is still relevant in the world. Whether people disagree or agree with the Bible, no one being intellectually honest can deny that it is still relevant in our society.

Well no. You were arguing that the bible has stood up to the same scrutiny as science. Nothing about relevancy.

Another humorous characteristic of sophisticated theologians is that they don't bother to read the posts to which they are responding.

I also suspect they are very susceptible to hernias. Goalposts are heavy.

 

[chapmic]

I liked your earlier post, but this is simply paranoia speaking

It's not paranoia, its true and human nature. If you are in a relationship with a person, and you found out they lied about where they were on Tuesday. You will naturally start to wonder what else they are lying about. This leads to constant wondering about if they are where they say are. Which leads to resentment and mistrust as a result is damaging to the relationship.

 

[EternalDragon]

Does there have to be a "meaning" to why were here? Aren't we supposed to supply the "meaning"?

Do you mean just making things up as we go? Like some people's
meaning of life turning into killing sprees?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Do you mean just making things up as we go? Like some people's
meaning of life turning into killing sprees?

Kinda comparing apples to oranges a bit there.

 

[bhsmte]

Do you mean just making things up as we go? Like some people's
meaning of life turning into killing sprees?

That would be called mental illness ED and both believers and non believers can be inflicted with the same. Some have killed, because they claimed God told them to.

 

[TLK Valentine]

That's not what we see in the Bible -- so even if we accept that God told them what to write, they maintained enough free will to choose for themselves -- subjectively -- how to write it.

I don't understand how you came to that conclusion,

It was actually quite simple -- I read the Bible.

The Bible has a reoccurring theme of people sinning and God offering a way of redemption to accept them.

And yet even that theme isn't omnipresent throughout every story in every book -- but I digress.

What we have are different writers utilizing the same theme -- or at least similar themes -- but they did so in their own ways, in their own styles. Are you saying you can't tell the difference?

Consider the following -- Alfred Hitchcock directed Psycho; Johnathan Demme directed The Silence of the Lambs; Oliver Stone directed Natural Born Killers.

All three films had the same theme -- serial killers. Are you saying you can't tell they were done by three different people?

That happens in the Old Testament and in the New Testament

Happens in a lot of books and movies, too -- look at the Star Wars expanded universe. All the novels, comic books, video games, etc... take place a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...

Can't you tell they're all written by different people?

What is the exact thing you disagree with in the Bible?

It's not the Bible, my friend -- it's you.

Literalism tells me to stop thinking and simply accept what I read as straight-up, unquestionable fact. No can do.

The heart cannot be forced to accept what the mind rejects.

What infinite truth do you think the Bible is missing?

If I knew that, it wouldn't be missing, now would it?

Are you saying that the Bible is the be-all and end-all; the Alpha and Omega, as it were? That all we need to know about God, the heavens, the Earth, Life, the Universe, and Everything, is contained so snugly within its words?

Is God not bigger than the Bible?

Even still, reading the Bible doesn't just make someone all knowledgeable, no matter what religion or science no person on this Earth is all knowledgeable nor ever will be.

True -- but the Bible never discourages people from trying; it's worshipers do that.

We humans are inquisitive creatures, and our curiosity has done us a lot of good. It's in our nature to want to learn; why stifle it?

A good man once said, “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.” Some people are not content when others wave a sacred book in their faces and say, "Nothing more to see; nothing more to know."

Again, why stifle them? What are you afraid they will find?

That's what I don't understand about people's quest to be the most well informed, being very smart does not mean you are going to be very happy.

Ignorance is bliss, hmmm? Perhaps -- but a happiness based on ignorance is a false god if ever there was one.

It's worse than the Golden Calf; it's a Golden Dancer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEgo6OxqE-Q

 

[chapmic]

It takes strength and bravery to doubt the received wisdom of others. That is why atheists who have walked away from religion have a tougher time of it. It take overcoming training from childhood to simply accept the word of the parents and holy men.

It takes a lot of examination and thought and learning.

Same with science. To question it effectively one should come at it from a firm base of understanding what they are questioning (and I don't mean by simply reading Creationist websites).

It takes a lot of examination and thought and learning.

Exactly you only changed who you were learning from, instead of learning from your parents and holy men, you are learning from scientists now. But they are fallible too and can be just as wrong. Nothing has changed except your bias against your parents and holy men.

 

[hurste1951]

Exactly you only changed who you were learning from, instead of learning from your parents and holy men, you are learning from scientists now.

Interesting. But wrong. Sorry.

I may be a scientist by degree and training but I explored my faith through investigating the faith and what it said. I am well versed on Christian soteriology and thought and rather well read.

My scientific training actually was useful in to me insofar as it helped me judge truth claims for myself.

But they are fallible too and can be just as wrong. Nothing has changed except your bias against your parents and holy men.

Actually I'm more well read on Christianity than my parents were. My bias, such as it is, is just as real as yours. I have attempted to eliminate my bias but I have no doubt it remains. But that is exactly as you are.

 

[PsychoSarah]

It takes a lot of examination and thought and learning.

Exactly you only changed who you were learning from, instead of learning from your parents and holy men, you are learning from scientists now. But they are fallible too and can be just as wrong. Nothing has changed except your bias against your parents and holy men.

Scientists can be wrong and they make that clear in the nature of their practice, but personally, I trust people who are willing to admit they can't be 100% certain they are correct but that they investigate topics as much as they can to increase the probability of it than people who just stand there claiming an ancient text is write because the ancient text says so.

True, this only makes a difference in how LIKELY said individuals are to be accurate, not whether or not they actually are. But science works with doubt rather than trying to crush it, and thus why people don't necessarily have the same problems when they notice or find out about inaccuracies made in science versus those in religious texts.

 

[hurste1951]

Do you mean just making things up as we go?

No, I'm saying that there is no "Meaning" other than what we supply. Look at Michelle Bachmann as an example. She felt God called her to be a tax attorney. I suspect she wanted to be a tax attorney (money, you know). I doubt sincerely that God wanted another tax attorney.

Like some people's
meaning of life turning into killing sprees?

You mean like in the Bible?

1 Sam 15:3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

 

[chapmic]

Well no. You were arguing that the bible has stood up to the same scrutiny as science. Nothing about relevancy.

Another humorous characteristic of sophisticated theologians is that they don't bother to read the posts to which they are responding.

I also suspect they are very susceptible to hernias. Goalposts are heavy.

Lol wow man, you do realize the scientific method wasn't created until the 17th century right? The scriptures were compiled by the second century. Let's be intellectually honest please.

 

[TLK Valentine]

It takes a lot of examination and thought and learning.

Exactly you only changed who you were learning from, instead of learning from your parents and holy men, you are learning from scientists now. But they are fallible too and can be just as wrong. Nothing has changed except your bias against your parents and holy men.

It's not bias; it's confirmation. One tends to believe in the results one gets.

"I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs." -- Frederick Douglass

"The priests used to say that faith can move mountains, and nobody believed them. Today the scientists say that they can level mountains, and nobody doubts them." -- Joseph Campbell.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Lol wow man, you do realize the scientific method wasn't created until the 17th century right? The scriptures were compiled by the second century. Let's be intellectually honest please.

Are you saying that science didn't exist until the 17th Century?

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Do you mean just making things up as we go? Like some people's
meaning of life turning into killing sprees?

Looney Tunes, ay!

 

[chapmic]

Being ignorant doesn't make you happy either. Understand that, yes, some people do experience joy at obtaining knowledge in and of itself, but personal happiness need not be the only valid motivation for learning.

I know but people tend to take it to the extreme, moderation is needed in everything. There is danger in priding one self about how smart they are. The reality is it doesn't make anyone a better person and it doesn't mean you don't have the same emotional needs or reaction. So what does it profit a person to be the smartest person in the room. I'm not saying don't learn, I'm just saying there is a danger in being prideful about being the most learned.

 

[lewiscalledhimmaster]

Are you saying that science didn't exist until the 17th Century?

This is getting a bit nutty professor -- I think I need a frosty to take the edge off.

 

[chapmic]

Are you saying that science didn't exist until the 17th Century?

Wow nice try to make me look ignorant, the key word is scientific method

The scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.[1] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry is commonly based on empirical or measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[2] The Oxford English Dictionary defines the scientific method as "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses."[3]

 

[PsychoSarah]

I know but people tend to take it to the extreme, moderation is needed in everything. There is danger in priding one self about how smart they are. The reality is it doesn't make anyone a better person and it doesn't mean you don't have the same emotional needs or reaction. So what does it profit a person to be the smartest person in the room. I'm not saying don't learn, I'm just saying there is a danger in being prideful about being the most learned.

I'm pretty sure it is usually more ignorant people who tend to brag about their "intelligence" than legitimately knowledgeable people.

 

[TLK Valentine]

I know but people tend to take it to the extreme, moderation is needed in everything. There is danger in priding one self about how smart they are.

Danger also in priding oneself on how close to God they are -- especially when they take it upon themselves to try to bring others "closer."

The reality is it doesn't make anyone a better person and it doesn't mean you don't have the same emotional needs or reaction.

So it doesn't matter -- what's wrong with being smart, then?

So what does it profit a person to be the smartest person in the room. I'm not saying don't learn, I'm just saying there is a danger in being prideful about being the most learned.

As the saying goes, "If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room."

It's not about resting on one's laurels or gloating -- it's about overcoming this challenge in order to face the next one.