How to define freewill operationally?

fhansen

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Does Satan have freewill according to your definition?
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have freewill?
Does a sophisticated AI have freewill?
Does a dog have freewill?
How about a fish?
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have freewill?
Yes, the first two have free will, and God may use even our bad choices, which He foreknows, for His ultimate purposes. AI and cats and dogs do not possess it. By the time of the resurrection we'll have attained our purpose, our telos, with the help of grace: God's work in us. We'll be perfected in love, and we'll know love perfectly. And that love, by its nature, excludes the desire for anything less. And that love is both a divine gift and a human choice,, just as sin is a human choice-choices that AI and cats and dogs are unable to make.
 
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Stephen3141

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I know that I have my own freewill. I just don't know how to define the term operationally :)

Exodus 35:29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the LORD freewill offerings for all the work the LORD through Moses had commanded them to do.

The Bible assumes the existence of freewill without defining it. Dictionaries provide some lexical definitions of "freewill". For me, to use the term free will in a logical argument, I need a precise operational definition. An example of an operational definition can be found in Wiki.

Let D = the operational definition of freewill. Given an agent x, D(x) = {yes, no}.

Show me a D that will decide whether x has freewill or not, so that anyone can apply this definition to x and decide whether x is an instance of freewill or not. The definition should be objective enough that no matter who applies it to x, the decision is the same.

Your definition must be consistent with the following:

1 Corinthians 7 talks about freedom and will:

37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.

A similar concept is expressed in (BSB) Philemon 1:14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent so that your goodness will not be out of compulsion, but by your own free will.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Make sure your definition can answer the following:

Does Satan have freewill?
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have freewill?
Does a sophisticated AI have freewill?
Does a dog have freewill?
How about a fish?
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have freewill?

Alternatively, instead of "freewill", one can speak of "sovereign volition" or "independent will".
I'm not sure what you mean by "operationally". Could you define that?

A lot of Christian denominations disagree on what the definition of the English term "freewill" means.
that is a problem.

Some denominational theologies define "freewill" as whatever God wants us to think. This is not what most Christians believe free will means.

Having freewill, just means that we have multiple choices that we could make. It does not mean that we have all possible options available.

Freewill usually means that we are able to choose to do something, or choose to NOT do it. And it is this ability to choose to do or not do, that means that we can be held morally-ethically responsible for that choice.

As far as Christian theology goes, God's covenants are for human beings. Whether other species have free will, is not a Christian theological question.

Note that different schools of philosophy define "thinking" and "choosing" differently. the Bible is not really concerned with philosophical definitions of consciousness, or thinking, or choosing. the Bible projects that we are conscious, there is a shared reality, we can think, and we can choose. This is where Christian discussions of free will need to START.

Some Christian denominations have theologies in which God's will is deterministic, for our thinking. That is, by their definition, we do not have free will. This violates the straightforward meaning of a lot of biblical language that uses vocabulary meaning thinking, choosing, evaluating possibilities, etc. I rule out these theologies, that require abusing the language of Scripture, as the authors of Scripture used it.

Free will is often connected to the person doing the thinking, being a person, and having an identity. This is not the case with a computer program. In a computer program, there is no Person. There is no conscious Mind. A computer program is hardware and software that emulates models in which there are choices, and how these choices could be made.

I would avoid speculation about whether there will be free will after the resurrection of the body. Anyone can speculate. But even Paul says that it is not clear, what we will be like after the resurrection of the body.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Let D = the operational definition of freewill. Given an agent x, D(x) = {yes, no}.

Show me a D that will decide whether x has freewill or not, so that anyone can apply this definition to x and decide whether x is an instance of freewill or not. The definition should be objective enough that no matter who applies it to x, the decision is the same.
How does a definition decide anything?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Good question. An ordinary definition does not but an operational one does.
I guess that would depend on what you mean by "operational". I didn't take you to mean one that literally operates by its own volition. Nor even merely mechanically, but one that serves conceptually as a shortcut to what DOES operate.
 
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tonychanyt

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I know that I have my own freewill. I just don't know how to define the term operationally :)

Exodus 35:29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the LORD freewill offerings for all the work the LORD through Moses had commanded them to do.

The Bible assumes the existence of freewill without defining it. Dictionaries provide some lexical definitions of "freewill". For me, to use the term free will in a logical argument, I need a precise operational definition. An example of an operational definition can be found in Wiki.

Let D = the operational definition of freewill. Given an agent x, D(x) = {yes, no}.

Show me a D that will decide whether x has freewill or not, so that anyone can apply this definition to x and decide whether x is an instance of freewill or not. The definition should be objective enough that no matter who applies it to x, the decision is the same.

Your definition must be consistent with the following:

1 Corinthians 7 talks about freedom and will:

37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.

A similar concept is expressed in (BSB) Philemon 1:14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent so that your goodness will not be out of compulsion, but by your own free will.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Make sure your definition can answer the following:

Does Satan have freewill?
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have freewill?
Does a sophisticated AI have freewill?
Does a dog have freewill?
How about a fish?
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have freewill?

Alternatively, instead of "freewill", one can speak of "sovereign volition" or "independent will".

I guess that would depend on what you mean by "operational".
See Operational definition - Wikipedia
 
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John Mullally

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I know that I have my own freewill. I just don't know how to define the term operationally :)

Exodus 35:29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the LORD freewill offerings for all the work the LORD through Moses had commanded them to do.

The Bible assumes the existence of freewill without defining it. Dictionaries provide some lexical definitions of "freewill". For me, to use the term free will in a logical argument, I need a precise operational definition. An example of an operational definition can be found in Wiki.

Let D = the operational definition of freewill. Given an agent x, D(x) = {yes, no}.

Show me a D that will answer whether x has freewill or not, so that anyone can apply this definition to x and recognize whether x is an instance of freewill or not. The definition should be objective enough that no matter who applies it to x, the answer is the same.

Your definition must be consistent with the following:

1 Corinthians 7 talks about freedom and will:

37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.

A similar concept is expressed in (BSB) Philemon 1:14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent so that your goodness will not be out of compulsion, but by your own free will.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Make sure your definition can answer the following:

Does Satan have freewill?
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have freewill?
Does a sophisticated AI have freewill?
Does a dog have freewill?
How about a fish?
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have freewill?

Alternatively, instead of "freewill", one can speak of "sovereign volition" or "independent will".
God gives man free-will, and man chooses to believe in determinism, instead. That is the sad irony that Calvinists introduce into Christianity. So, is “freewill” a pagan term? No, it is a biblical term:

Philemon 1:12-14: “I have sent him back to you in person, that is, sending my very heart, whom I wished to keep with me, so that on your behalf he might minister to me in my imprisonment for the gospel; but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion but of your own free will.”​
There are several references to “freewill” that occur in the Bible, as found in the King James translation of the Bible. Here is one example:

Ezra 7:13: “I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.” (KJV)​

Here are additional variations to free-will, as found in the New American Standard translation:

Genesis 49:6: “Let my soul not enter into their council; Let not my glory be united with their assembly; because in their anger they slew men, and in their self-will they lamed oxen.”​

1 Peter 5:2: “Shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness.”​

Luke 12:57: “‘And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?’”​
If God has free will (Ephesians 1:6), and if man is created in the image of God (Genesis 1:27), it stands to reason that man may also have free will, or else in what way is man created in the image of God? Free will is the gift of a life-giving God in order for humans and angels to possess a living mind, with autonomy of reason and creative intelligence, so as to be able to act independently, all so that mankind may be suitable caretakers of God’s creative works.

Is there an independent will? If man does not have an autonomous will that is independent from God, then there is no meaningful way to defend against the charge that God is the author of their sin. Only an independent will, coexisting with God’s will, can distinguish God’s holiness from man’s sinfulness. If God decreed whatsoever comes to pass, so that man’s will stems from God’s will (as Calvin claims), then we are left with only one will in the cosmos: God’s Will. Conversely, the concept of a truly independent free-will maintains God’s holiness, explains a myriad of Scripture verses in which God denies doing certain things, and also gives rise to a true meaning of divine permission. An independent will is crucial to this debate. Otherwise, Calvin’s purported decree of “whatsoever comes to pass” would give the unbeliever an excuse for rejecting Christ, such that they were born this way. Free-will says No! You have a choice for which each of us are eternally held responsible.

The Calvinist view of free-will is that our will is free to choose only evil, all the time, because our nature has been altered by our father, Adam. Thus, mankind is incapable of humbly admitting its fallen state and receiving God’s free offer of healing and restoration. However, our freedom of the will has not been lost from birth due to the fall of Adam, but rather God uses the power of the gospel to tap into our natural freedom of the will, in order to convict and to persuade us, so as to place one’s faith in Christ for salvation. If fallen mankind did not possess freedom of the will to accept Christ, then what would be the point of the Holy Spirit’s work of conviction and persuasion of the lost?

Non-Calvinists Evangelicals agree that mankind is born incapable of willingly keeping all the demands of the law so as to merit salvation. And we would also agree that mankind is in bondage to sin. We would not agree that a man is born incapable of willingly admitting that he is in bondage and in need of help — especially in light of God’s gracious, Holy Spirit inspired, clear revelation — by means of the law (a tutor) and the gospel (a powerful appeal to be reconciled).
 
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FireDragon76

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Free will is a religious concept associated with Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism, meant to crystalize the importance of choice in moral deliberation. You aren't going to find alot of unshakeable philosophical ground to justify it, I am afraid, not from science or reason, anyways. So it seems silly to confuse it as something that can be subject to the same rules of logic as a mathematical theorem.
 
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Free will is a religious concept associated with Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism, meant to crystalize the importance of choice in moral deliberation. You aren't going to find alot of unshakeable philosophical ground to justify it, I am afraid, not from science or reason, anyways. So it seems silly to confuse it as something that can be subject to the same rules of logic as a mathematical theorem.
Right :)
 
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Mark Quayle

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Free will is a religious concept associated with Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism, meant to crystalize the importance of choice in moral deliberation. You aren't going to find alot of unshakeable philosophical ground to justify it, I am afraid, not from science or reason, anyways. So it seems silly to confuse it as something that can be subject to the same rules of logic as a mathematical theorem.
John MacArthur, speaking about Freewill vs Predestination, says people's thinking is kind of like, "God can't do that! (pause for effect, then raise an eyebrow) We are Americans!"
 
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John Mullally

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How about raising that eyebrow and saying "I don't want to be a puppet, I want to be a real boy".

MacArthur is a Calvinist and Calvin states that our every action was already decreed by God. Thus making God our puppet master.

“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)​
 
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How about raising that eyebrow and saying "I don't want to be a puppet, I want to be a real boy".

MacArthur is a Calvinist and Calvin states that our every action was already decreed by God. Thus making God our puppet master.

“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)​

Neuroscience and human psychology isn't exactly on the side of libertarian free will.
 
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Mark Quayle

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How about raising that eyebrow and saying "I don't want to be a puppet, I want to be a real boy".

MacArthur is a Calvinist and Calvin states that our every action was already decreed by God. Thus making God our puppet master.

“Creatures are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 3)​
Perhaps you'll survive the facts, and become a real boy in Heaven.
 
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John Mullally

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Perhaps you'll survive the facts, and become a real boy in Heaven.
The fact is that the word of God does not state that God decides our every action. If He did God would be accountable for all sin - which He clearly is not.

I don't want to be rude, but I think your nose is growing.
 
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John Mullally

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Neuroscience and human psychology isn't exactly on the side of libertarian free will.
No problem. Consider the source. Due to political correctness (i.e. leftist peer pressure), human psychology and an idiot judge on our Supreme Court don't have a clear understanding of the most basic scientific DNA concept: gender. Did you come to Christ through neuroscience (i.e. dragon what is your real point?).
 
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I know that I have my own freewill. I just don't know how to define the term operationally :)

Exodus 35:29 All the Israelite men and women who were willing brought to the LORD freewill offerings for all the work the LORD through Moses had commanded them to do.

The Bible assumes the existence of freewill without defining it. Dictionaries provide some lexical definitions of "freewill". For me, to use the term free will in a logical argument, I need a precise operational definition. An example of an operational definition can be found in Wiki.

Let D = the operational definition of freewill. Given an agent x, D(x) = {yes, no}.

Show me a D that will answer whether x has freewill or not, so that anyone can apply this definition to x and recognize whether x is an instance of freewill or not. The definition should be objective enough that no matter who applies it to x, the answer is the same.

Your definition must be consistent with the following:

1 Corinthians 7 talks about freedom and will:

37 But the man who has settled the matter in his own mind, who is under no compulsion but has control over his own will, and who has made up his mind not to marry the virgin—this man also does the right thing.

A similar concept is expressed in (BSB) Philemon 1:14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent so that your goodness will not be out of compulsion, but by your own free will.

Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Make sure your definition can answer the following:

Does Satan have freewill?
Did Pharoah in Exodus 9:12 have freewill?
Does a sophisticated AI have freewill?
Does a dog have freewill?
How about a fish?
After the resurrection of all the dead, will anyone have freewill?

Alternatively, instead of "freewill", one can speak of "sovereign volition" or "independent will".
I think this has to assume a few things for it to work and everyone at least of sound mind would acknowledge this. That is as humans we are rational and moral agents and potentially we can know and choose a path or behaviour that is in accordance with human potential. We can argue this by 'what a rational and moral person would do if there were no biases, self deceptions and they had all the information to make that choice.

We already do this in society by setting norms and laws. We can envision someone maybe an archetype representation that everyone of sound mind would agree to be someone to base making the right choices. If we were in this situation what would that ideal person do.

But I think theres a paradox in that we fall short of this 'Good person' because our sinful natures tendency towards sin and we are weak to fight this. So its actually by letting go of self will and giving over to Christ or some higher power beyond self will that we can gain true free will.
 
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