How, then, is the Calvinist refuted? (2)

[frumanchu]

Conviction is what brings someone to faith. It's clear in Peter's words, Acts2; he was telling them: "You've been waiting for the Messiah --- but He came, and you KILLED Him." When they heard this, they were "pierced to the heart" (smitten in conscience), and BELIEVED. 2:37.

It was conviction that turned them to Christ, not "God's sovereign election".

You are not solving the problem, Ben...merely moving it.

Why does it convict one man and not another. All things being equal in terms of presentation, why does the Gospel convict one man and bring him to repentance while failing to convict another?

Always, God's position is "receiving of men's faith" --- He welcomes/rewards/is-well-pleased-to-SAVE those who seek/revere/repent/believe. Acts10:34-35, Heb11:6, 1Cor1:21.

If God authors faith, then He does not receive it --- for it was His from the BEGINNING, it was never in a place to be GIVEN to Him.

Make sense? No one can "receive", what he has always had (or what he has created from the start).

Ben, you are still not grasping the Reformed view of how God brings about faith in man. You seem to be treating it as though it's this object that God merely drops into a man, or that it is God's faith and man is merely a passive conduit of it. Nothing could be further from the truth!

I have often used the comparison (and will do so again now) between God's inspiration of faith in the elect and God's inspiration of the Holy Scriptures. Scripture is quite clear that it is the very Word of God...it is "god-breathed." It is infallible and perfectly without error in it's original form. Yet it is also clearly the words of the respective authors, framed in their dialects, tendencies and viewpoints. It is not dictated by God...it is inspired by God.

Do you not agree that the Scriptures represent a clear case in which God perfectly and efficaciously brings about His will without violating the will of men?

 

[CCWoody]

There is no escaping the fact that "saving-faith", occurred WHEN we were dead in sins.

Let me see if I understand Ben's Soteriology.

One may simultaneously have both a living faith and be dead. Holy logical contradictions, Batman!!!

If only critical thought were not dead....

Please explain how one can have a living faith and be dead, Ben?

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[CCWoody]

Of course God knows the future. But let's see how you do with a simple question.

"When God saw their deeds, that they had turned from their wicked way, THEN God REPENTED of the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them, and He did not DO it." Jonah3:10

God changed His mind, when He saw they had repented.

Do you have any explanation for that, Woody?

Yes,....

From the perspective of Jonah, the future is NOT known. He does not know whether the Lord will bring about a promised evil against a people or relent.

From the perspective of the LORD, he already knew what the preaching of Jonah would accomplish. He already knew that he would not bring about the disaster. He sent Jonah with the specific intent of bringing about the repentence of a people as an example to a rebellious and stiffnecked generation that would not repent even though a greater than Jonah was there.

And now back to our regularally scheduled flip-flopping....

Ben, if the Lord knows that you will deny the faith tomorrow and die before you repent what can you do to change what the Lord already knows will happen?

Answer: Nothing.

The Lord ALREADY knows this will happen.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[CCWoody]

"By grace", is shown not to have meant "by grace alone"

Ben, it is either by grace alone, SOLA GRATIA.

or

it is by grace plus something.

Let's face it, you cannot declare by grace are you saved because you don't believe. Salvation is not by the grace of God in your world. You explicitly declared "by grace are you saved" invalid, explicitly declaring Scripture invalid. As I said earlier, your argument is not with me; it is with the Bible.

As a reformer with our great battlecry against false beliefs we understand that Sola Gratia, grace alone, is a grace throught faith. It is still by the grace of God alone that a man is saved. If faith is not of grace, and faith is accounted for righteousness, then man is righteous before God of his own faith apart from God. This is a denial of Christ.

It is of faith that it might be of grace. ~ Sola Gratia
Salvation is by the grace of God.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[cygnusx1]

Ben, it is either by grace alone, SOLA GRATIA.

or

it is by grace plus something.

Let's face it, you cannot declare by grace are you saved because you don't believe. Salvation is not by the grace of God in your world. You explicitly declared "by grace are you saved" invalid, explicitly declaring Scripture invalid. As I said earlier, your argument is not with me; it is with the Bible.

As a reformer with our great battlecry against false beliefs we understand that Sola Gratia, grace alone, is a grace throught faith. It is still by the grace of God alone that a man is saved. If faith is not of grace, and faith is accounted for righteousness, then man is righteous before God of his own faith apart from God. This is a denial of Christ.

It is of faith that it might be of grace. ~ Sola Gratia
Salvation is by the grace of God.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist

Woody.​

Amen Woody I agree with every word , you told it as straight as any man could tell it , short and very sweet , thankyou !!

 

[Ben johnson]

Let me see if I understand Ben's Soteriology.

One may simultaneously have both a living faith and be dead. Holy logical contradictions, Batman!!!

If only critical thought were not dead....

Please explain how one can have a living faith and be dead, Ben?

What does "dead in sins" mean, Woody? One who is "dead in sins" --- does he still breathe? Does he eat, and sleep? Does he make decisions, get married, get a job, drive, etcetera? Seems that such a "dead-in-sins" man has all kinds of "thoughts", doesn't he?

Now --- your premise is that a "dead-in-sins" man, cannot understand simple spiritual things like Jesus dying on the Cross for our sins. Is that a valid premise? By "valid", I mean have you any Scriptural support for such an idea?

1Cor2:14 has been attempted in support of that idea; but it doesn't apply --- the "spiritual things" of verse 14, are the same "spiritual things" in verse 12 --- that are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit. Because the Spirit is received by belief, then a natural man becomes spiritual, and understands the deeper things of the Spirit (verse 14), by first BELIEVING. (verse 12!)

Then 2Cor4:3-4 is attempted --- that "the devil has veiled their eyes, so they can't believe in Jesus". However --- verse 3:16 very plainly states "WHEN a man TURNS TO the Lord, (then!) the veil is removed." Oops --- belief precedes "unveiling-eyes", here too.

So --- what verse says a "dead-in-sins-man", cannot believe in Jesus? I've not seen it.

I understand your position of "total depravity" --- that a man cannot believe in God or receive Jesus without first being REGENERATED. Yet --- this concept must be "modified", when Luke8:13 is read; here they "received the Gospel with JOY, and believed". Because they later fell, the Calvinist thinks "Therefore they must not have ever been REALLY saved".

....but he at least admits, "There is a kind of belief an unregenerated man DOES"; even if he thinks "it's only 'professing' belief, not REALLY saved."

So --- a "dead-in-sins" man, can be JOYFUL about Jesus' Gospel, and BELIEVE. Can a dead-man believe joyfully, Woody?

The answer, is "YES".

Please consider what Jesus said in Jn12:32: "If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL MEN to Myself." (It's the same "helkuo-draw-drag" as in John6:44, "no one comes to Me unless the Fater draws him".) This reflects the parable of Matt22:2-14, where everyone is truly called to salvation.

It's my understanding that Jesus' sincere call, has sufficient power to overcome depravity such that belief is POSSIBLE.

Revisiting Luke8:13-15, we have two types of men who believe; there is nothing in the text to imply a difference in their BEGINNING faiths. The idea of "thirteeners were only SUPERFICIALLY believing, never REALLY saved", is something imposed by the premise of "Calvinism".

What if it's not how they BEGIN that matters --- but how they END? What if "perseverance" or "falling-away", is what determines "GOOD soil", or "BAD soil" (rather than vice-versa)? And this is exactly what Heb6:7-8 states --- one tilled soil, is blessed IF it produces good fruit, but cursed IF it yields thorns/thistles.

With respect, these verses only make sense to you if "filtered" through prior dogma. If you can lay aside the premise that "a dead-in-sins-man cannot savingly-believe in Jesus", then perhaps you'll consider that the sincere call TO salvation, provides man with the ability TO believe. This idea is furthered creatly by the fact that there aren't any verses which conflict "spiritually-dead-BELIEVING" (and through faith becoming spiritually alive).

Luke8:13-15 cannot be separated from Heb6:7-8; we cannot deny that Jesus clearly said "many are called, but few are chosen" --- contextually stating that only those who CHOOSE to come, will be chosen.

The spiritually-dead, can believe in Jesus, Woody. This makes perfect sense with passages like 1Cor1:18-21; God is pleased, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe." If "regeneration" comes first, the message first ceases to be "foolish", and THEN man believes. Instead, Paul is conveying that BELIEF changes the message from "foolish" to "power".

This is why I continue here, Woody; because what is so clear to me, and what is so clear to you, is subordinate to Scripture; if you can demonstrate Scriptural conflict in what I believe, then Calvinism gains credibility to me. But if I can demonstrate conflict in what you believe, I hope you'll consider "Responsible Grace". And the greatest conflict between Scripture and your paradigm, is the Scriptural reality that "faith is the means by which grace makes us alive" --- faith, precedes regeneration...

 

[Ben johnson]

Yes,....

From the perspective of Jonah, the future is NOT known. He does not know whether the Lord will bring about a promised evil against a people or relent.

From the perspective of the LORD, he already knew what the preaching of Jonah would accomplish. He already knew that he would not bring about the disaster. He sent Jonah with the specific intent of bringing about the repentence of a people as an example to a rebellious and stiffnecked generation that would not repent even though a greater than Jonah was there.

Ben, if the Lord knows that you will deny the faith tomorrow and die before you repent what can you do to change what the Lord already knows will happen?

Answer: Nothing.

The Lord ALREADY knows this will happen.

I agree with you, that He fully knew that Ninevah would repent. But the entire discussion is worded to convey their free choice.

"Knowing", is not "causing"; a time-traveler must be very careful about what he does --- the least little mishap can change history. Did you see the Star Trek TOS episode, "City on the Edge of Forever"? What happened when Bones saved Edith Kieler? Whichever eventuality had remained at the end of the episode --- God would know it. But there were clear personal choices. Choices that God did not cause.

Consider Rom8 --- Calvinists think that "God calls only a FEW, and predestines them to salvation"; but read it carefully --- it begins with "those WHO love God (He causes all things to work together for good); who are called according to His purpose. And to the called" (note that this is not asserting "EXCLUSIVE call" --- it's "those who are called, WHO LOVE Him") --- "those whom He foreknew, He predestined to be Christlike".

Will you consider that "those WHO love God", reflects "whom He foreknew", and harmonizes with "predestined-Christlikeness" THROUGH their faith?

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, it is either by grace alone, SOLA GRATIA.

You're RIGHT.

...or

it is by grace plus something.

It's "grace, plus NOTHING".

Let's face it, you cannot declare by grace are you saved because you don't believe. Salvation is not by the grace of God in your world. You explicitly declared "by grace are you saved" invalid, explicitly declaring Scripture invalid.

I do not; we are saved by Christ's sacrifice on the Cross, and by nothing additional. His sacrifice was complete, and sufficient.

As I said earlier, your argument is not with me; it is with the Bible.

No --- your argument is with the Bible.

God's grace, works through our faith. Your doctrine disregards that justification CAME to ALL MEN (Rom5:18), in exactly the same way (measure) that condemnation came; there is no way that "SO-THEN/EVEN-SO" can allow "justification came to only a FEW, but condemnation came to ALL". Justification came to all that condemnation came to. But verse 17 boldly asserts "he WHO receives the abundance of grace, and WHO receives the gift of righteousness, will reign with Jesus".

Please accept two things:
1. "Reign-with-Jesus", conveys "SALVATION"
2. Grace is received

This "duality" (God's sovereign grace, received through faith) is reflected completely, in John1:12-13. In verse 13, the BEGOTTENNESS is all of God, and nothing of us (Jesus' complete and sufficient sacrifice).

...but in verse 12, those WHO RECEIVE Jesus, even those who believe on His name, gain the right to BECOME children of God.

As a reformer with our great battlecry against false beliefs we understand that Sola Gratia, grace alone, is a grace through faith.

No, you don't; it is "grace through grace" in your view. That's not what Paul wrote, it's not what Jesus preached.

It is still by the grace of God alone that a man is saved. If faith is not of grace, and faith is accounted for righteousness, then man is righteous before God of his own faith apart from God. This is a denial of Christ.

No, it's not. Our righteousness, is by "Christ in us" --- period. Saving-faith does not make us righteous, beyond the fact that saving-faith receives Jesus and His righteousnes. What do you think "As you have received Christ, so walk IN Him" means? Col2:6 then continues, plainly warning us to "not be deceived away from Christ".

"Walking in Christ", is "being righteous", Woody. Being deceived away from Christ, is falling from salvation. THEREFORE as Paul warns in 2Cor13:5, we are to "examine ourselves to see if Christ is IN us" --- else we find ourselves deceived, and no longer abiding in Jesus.

As John says (2:1:7-8), "WATCH yourselves (against the deceivers!) ...He who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings of Christ, HAS NOT GOD."

There's no way to deny verses that speak of "your faith has saved you". As Paul admonishes, "as you PERSEVERE, you will SAVE YOURSELVES".

Have you ever looked up "fast"? 1Thess3:8 says "We live, IF we stand firm (fast) in the Lord". Heb3:6 says "We are Christ's house, IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end."

IF we hold fast, Woody --- not "we WILL hold fast". And this brings us right back to Luke8:13-15 --- those in verse 15 were "good soil", BECAUSE they "held fast and bore fruit with perseverance".

It is of faith that it might be of grace. ~ Sola Gratia
Salvation is by the grace of God.

Salvation is by the grace of God. But it's received by FAITH. Faith changes nothing of the gift --- but there is no gift without receiving. "Faith" is not righteousness; faith receives righteousness. There is "beginning faith", and "ending faith" (Rom1:17); as Paul asked the Galatians (3:3), "Having BEGUN in the Spirit, are you now ending in the FLESH?"

I've explained my understanding, and completely supported it with Scripture. Now I know you fully understand why I believe as I do.

 

[CCWoody]

Ben, quit dodging the question:

How can one simultaneously have both a living faith and be dead in sin.

If you are exercising a living faith, then you can't be dead in sins. If you are dead in sins, then it is precisely because you don't have faith in the Lord.

Ben, you can't even see this GLARING contradiction, can you? You are completely blind to this.

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist

Woody.​

 

[Ben johnson]

Ben, quit dodging the question:

How can one simultaneously have both a living faith and be dead in sin.

If you are exercising a living faith, then you can't be dead in sins. If you are dead in sins, then it is precisely because you don't have faith in the Lord.

Ben, you can't even see this GLARING contradiction, can you? You are completely blind to this.

Woody, did you read posts 106, 107, 108? I put my heart into those posts, and you will clearly see the difference between our views.

I was inclined to answer your question; but one of those posts already answered it --- I won't tell you which, because I'd like you to read all three.

I will say --- one cannot be "dead in sins", and "believing", at the same time. Once someone believes savingly, that belief receives God's grace, Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Thus, "saving-belief" and "made-alive", are simultaneous; one cannot be "believing-savingly", and still dead in sins.

Conversely --- one who is NOW "alive to sin" (some would say, "backslidden"), is not alive to Christ, is not believing savingly. Rom6 is clear on this. You will say "well then such a one was never REALLY saved in the FIRST place". At that moment, you and I would be in agreement that his prior state ("saved" or "not") is insignificant, compared to his FUTURE state.

But Ephesians is clear; WHEN we were dead in sins, we were made-alive THROUGH faith.

Faith --- when-dead --- moved us to "alive".


I look forward to your thoughts on posts 106, 107, and 108. What I said is incompatible with Calvinism; it remains for us to come to agreement about if what I said, reflects Scripture.

 

[Rightglory]

Ben,

I will say --- one cannot be "dead in sins", and "believing", at the same time. Once someone believes savingly, that belief receives God's grace, Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Thus, "saving-belief" and "made-alive", are simultaneous; one cannot be "believing-savingly", and still dead in sins.
Conversely --- one who is NOW "alive to sin" (some would say, "backslidden"), is not alive to Christ, is not believing savingly. Rom6 is clear on this. You will say "well then such a one was never REALLY saved in the FIRST place". At that moment, you and I would be in agreement that his prior state ("saved" or "not") is insignificant, compared to his FUTURE state.
But Ephesians is clear; WHEN we were dead in sins, we were made-alive THROUGH faith.
Faith --- when-dead --- moved us to "alive".

As I mentioned before and reading this post with interest you are consistant until you are unable to follow faith logically.
Paul is not speaking of faith here are all. Faith is not even in the picture. This is why the Bible also uses parentheses in verse 5. The "we" is referencing mankind as it has all through the first and second chapters to this point. It is making comparisons. Mankind is saved by grace. Nothing but Grace. This is the point where Rom 9-11 is speaking about whom Christ will save. This is the same as saying, not by the will of man, nor by the flesh, but the will of God. Man has no contribution whatsoever to the salvation from the fall, from death. It is while we were yet sinners that Christ died for us.
As in Adam we all die, so also in Christ we are all made alive. This aligns with Rom 11:32, Rom 5:18-19, It aligns with I Cor 15:20-22, We can live IN Christ ONLY because He first lives, (was resurrected) so that we might believe and have (Spiritual life) in His life, or live IN Him. Faith does not, cannot grant (physical) life. Mankind recieves life through the resurrection of Christ. I Cor 15:14-19. As it is clearly pointed out here, faith is absolutely void, vain, moot without the resurrection - life.
Man was created by God with nothing from man, and man's life was restored by the only one who can grant life, Christ.
It is this life that makes it possible for man, any man to believe. It makes it possible for God to call all men to repentance. It is a sincere call because all have been given life in order to respond. There is not a single human being left in bondage to death or sin. We all have been freed from that bondage. We can only return to the bondage of sin by our free choice, just as we can be in bondage to Christ by a free choice to believe. It is on that basis that man can be justly judged.
It is why He is merciful. He left no man under the condemnation of Adam, He lost none to death.
You will not find a single text that says man, any man, receives (physical) life through faith.
This goes right back to the same distinction being made in John 6:39 and 40.

This also aligns with all the reconciling texts like Col 1:15-20, and II Cor 5:18-19. If God reconciled the world, the universe, all things, it would be impossible to miss a single human being. Man is acceptable to God once he has life. It makes union by faith possible. It is why Christ was needed in the first place. A dead man cannot believe, cannot live in Christ either. Death, the condemnation of Adam to mankind precluded the purpose of man's creation, to be both eternal (immortal) and to be in union or communion with God.

I thought I would point that out to you just one more time hoping that it redirects your thinking on what Christ accomplished on the Cross and through His resurrection.
It also is the meaning and definition of the Incarnation. Christ assumed our fallen human natures to restore them from death to life through His Resurrection. This is why all men will rise from the dead, all men will stand in judgement. All men will live eternally, but not necessarily WITH Christ, only those that believe and have overcome, were faithful, endure, persevered with Christ.

 

[Ben johnson]

As I mentioned before and reading this post with interest you are consistant until you are unable to follow faith logically.

Hi, "Rightglory". The thread is about "Calvinism" --- I feel that Calvinism, or "Reformed Theology", is fully overturned. Posts 106, 107, and 108, were particularly devastating; 106 establishes that a "dead-in-sins" man, can believe --- and that belief precedes "made-alive". 108 establishes that "God's grace is recieved by man's faith" --- faith does not make a man righteous or meritorious, faith receives God's grace and righteousness. Each assertion was fully backed by Scripture.

Paul is not speaking of faith here are all. Faith is not even in the picture. This is why the Bible also uses parentheses in verse 5. The "we" is referencing mankind as it has all through the first and second chapters to this point.

The context equates "made-alive", with "saved"; it does not convey "all mankind is made alive".

It is making comparisons. Mankind is saved by grace. Nothing but Grace.

I understand where you're coming from; mankind is redeemed by Christ's death --- He is the propitiation for US (saved), and for the WHOLE WORLD. 1Jn2:2 It's impossible to cast "holos-kosmos" as anything but "everyone".

...yet, to actually BE saved, requires conscious belief. Grace is RECEIVED. Verses like Rom5:17 are very clear on this. And to establish that "clarity", we must agree on the two points:

1. "Reign with Christ", conveys SALVATION.
2. Grace is received, which denotes belief.

There is no way to deny either point.

This is the point where Rom 9-11 is speaking about whom Christ will save. This is the same as saying, not by the will of man, nor by the flesh, but the will of God. Man has no contribution whatsoever to the salvation from the fall, from death. It is while we were yet sinners that Christ died for us.
As in Adam we all die, so also in Christ we are all made alive. This aligns with Rom 11:32, Rom 5:18-19, It aligns with I Cor 15:20-22, We can live IN Christ ONLY because He first lives, (was resurrected) so that we might believe and have (Spiritual life) in His life, or live IN Him.

And yet, all is predicated upon faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God; He receives those WHO believe. Heb11:6. Belief/receiving Jesus enrolls us as adopted sons. John1:12. Obedience to discipline, KEEPS us as sons. Heb12:7-9 (25!).

Faith does not, cannot grant (physical) life.

Faith receives immortality.

Mankind recieves life through the resurrection of Christ. I Cor 15:14-19. As it is clearly pointed out here, faith is absolutely void, vain, moot without the resurrection - life.

And salvation is void, vain, moot, without faith.

Recognizing that "reign-with-Christ" denotes salvation, then Paul plainly states in 2Tim2:11-13, that if we endure, then we shall reign with Him; but if we ARE faithless, Jesus will deny us before God (and the only possible understanding is that we then will NOT reign with Him!)

Man was created by God with nothing from man, and man's life was restored by the only one who can grant life, Christ.

That's right.

It is this life that makes it possible for man, any man to believe. It makes it possible for God to call all men to repentance. It is a sincere call because all have been given life in order to respond. There is not a single human being left in bondage to death or sin. We all have been freed from that bondage. We can only return to the bondage of sin by our free choice, just as we can be in bondage to Christ by a free choice to believe.

I don't think anyone is actually FREED from sin, BEFORE believing/receiving Christ. See Jn8:34-36. But we're more in agreement than not.

It is on that basis that man can be justly judged.

"Justly judged", by definition because of his OWN CHOICE. That's why Calvinism errs at the most foundational level.

It is why He is merciful. He left no man under the condemnation of Adam, He lost none to death.
You will not find a single text that says man, any man, receives (physical) life through faith.

"Salvation" always conveys "spiritual life".

This goes right back to the same distinction being made in John 6:39 and 40.

Verse 39 connects with Jn17:6 --- Jesus is affirming His authority, nothing more, nothing less (see verse 42). So "all God gives Jesus", are "those who BELONG to God". Given THROUGH belief, not before.

Jn6:40 clearly and plainly rests "saved", on the foundation of "belief".

This also aligns with all the reconciling texts like Col 1:15-20, and II Cor 5:18-19. If God reconciled the world, the universe, all things, it would be impossible to miss a single human being. Man is acceptable to God once he has life. It makes union by faith possible. It is why Christ was needed in the first place. A dead man cannot believe, cannot live in Christ either. Death, the condemnation of Adam to mankind precluded the purpose of man's creation, to be both eternal (immortal) and to be in union or communion with God.

With respect, this is a faulty understanding; "dead men", can believe. Jesus spent much time rebuking (Matt23:13, Jn5:39-47, Matt11:21-24) people for REFUSING to believe.

Unbelievers are not "spiritually alive"; and God chooses no one to spiritual life and faith.

I thought I would point that out to you just one more time hoping that it redirects your thinking on what Christ accomplished on the Cross and through His resurrection.

As I said, we're more in agreement than not; what He accomplished on the Cross, was redemption and propitiation for EVERY MAN (for all time). Heb10:12.

It also is the meaning and definition of the Incarnation. Christ assumed our fallen human natures to restore them from death to life through His Resurrection. This is why all men will rise from the dead, all men will stand in judgement. All men will live eternally, but not necessarily WITH Christ, only those that believe and have overcome, were faithful, endure, persevered with Christ.

Immortality is the reward to believers, wrath is the reward to the unrighteous --- Paul said so, Rom2:6-8. Whether they considered "firey torture" eternal, and were just calling those united to Christ "immortal", is immaterial. The concept of "immortality", in the meaning of "spiritually-alive", is not bestowed on unbelievers.

Calvinism has two great errors --- first, in misunderstanding man's roll in RECEIVING God's grace; second in misunderstanding our roll in persevering in Jesus.

Paul did not include "through faith" in Eph2, absentmindedly (or offhandedly); faith is the means by which God's grace, saves us.

There is a time when Calvinists and I can stand together in faith, certain of each others' salvation; and there is a time when I am greatly concerned about their steadfastness in faith.

 

[nobdysfool]

Hi, "Rightglory". The thread is about "Calvinism" --- I feel that Calvinism, or "Reformed Theology", is fully overturned. Posts 106, 107, and 108, were particularly devastating; 106 establishes that a "dead-in-sins" man, can believe --- and that belief precedes "made-alive". 108 establishes that "God's grace is recieved by man's faith" --- faith does not make a man righteous or meritorious, faith receives God's grace and righteousness. Each assertion was fully backed by Scripture.

Fully refuted? Hardly! Nothing but uber-confidence and an unwillingness to accept refutation from Calvinists. You talk past us all the time, because you do not listen, you reinterpret everything we say. You have refuted nothing. You made a show of supposedly answering Woody's question while actually side-stepping it. Your answer to him was a non-answer, and he called you on it.

 

[Ben johnson]

This also aligns with all the reconciling texts like Col 1:15-20, and II Cor 5:18-19.

We must understand that "reconcilliation", is conditional. In Col1:21-23, we are reconciled to God through Jesus' body, IF INDEED we CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from the Hope of the Gospel.

Per 1Tim1:1, Jesus is "our Hope".

So reconcilliation conditions on our "being in Christ". Which is "by faith". Reconcilliation is TO the world, but only OF believers.

Perfect harmony, throughout.

 

[Ben johnson]

Fully refuted? Hardly! Nothing but uber-confidence and an unwillingness to accept refutation from Calvinists. You made a show of supposedly answering Woody's question while actually side-stepping it. Your answer to him was a non-answer, and he called you on it.

Fully answered in 106 and 110.

You talk past us all the time, because you do not listen, you reinterpret everything we say. You have refuted nothing.

Then deal with 106-108, and overturn the refutation.

 

[cygnusx1]

We must understand that "reconcilliation", is conditional. In Col1:21-23, we are reconciled to God through Jesus' body, IF INDEED we CONTINUE in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from the Hope of the Gospel.

Per 1Tim1:1, Jesus is "our Hope".

So reconcilliation conditions on our "being in Christ". Which is "by faith". Reconcilliation is TO the world, but only OF believers.

Perfect harmony, throughout.

reconciliation is unconditional , Christ has (past tense) reconciled the world .

Romans 5

[10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

clearly it was while we were enemies , not at the time we agreed to Christ's rule , but at the time of Christ's death we were reconciled , receiving this reconciliation does not make it so , it just reveals that it is so , faith is ;


Hbr 11:1¶Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. KJV


Here faith is responsive , it is the evidence of things NOT SEEN , ie, things that already exist but are unseen are evidenced / made known/ revealed by faith .


Abraham was saved "by" his faith not because of it!

tell me why was Abraham justified ?


Faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen , not the cause or instigator !

 

[Ben johnson]

reconciliation is unconditional , Christ has (past tense) reconciled the world .

Col1 very clearly says "reconciled, if indeed continue in the faith firm/steadfast and not moved away from Jesus". What can be done with that verse (23)? Anything?

Romans 5

[10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

"We", who? "We" EVERYONE? Or "we" BELIEVERS? Clearly, "we-shall-be-saved", denotes "we believers".

clearly it was while we were enemies, not at the time we agreed to Christ's rule...

At the moment that "we were made alive", it was "through faith". We just can't get away from the reality of "BELIEVING".

but at the time of Christ's death we were reconciled, receiving this reconciliation does not make it so, it just reveals that it is so...

Really? Rom5:18 says that "justification CAME to all men" --- and in using "SO THEN (condemnation-all), EVEN SO (justification-all)", he's asserting "justification CAME to all-men-the-world". Yet -- verse 17 says "those who RECEIVE grace, who RECEIVE righteousness, reign with Christ".

One is compelled to either assert "reign-with-Christ" does not indicate "salvation", or to accept that "justification-all" conditions on receiving (by faith!).

faith is:

Hbr 11:1¶Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. KJV

This describes faith; it does not force it to be in God's sovereign decision. Verse 6 (same letter) places God as receiver to those who come to Him, BY faith.

One who comes, must believe God IS, and that God rewards those WHO seek Him.

God being the RECEIVER of our faith, denies the position of Him CAUSING it.

Here faith is responsive...

Context --- God receives man's faith; that makes GOD responsive to MAN'S faith. This is established and undeniable (can you deny it?).

it is the evidence of things NOT SEEN, ie, things that already exist but are unseen are evidenced / made known/ revealed by faith.

This connects to Jesus' words to Thomas --- unseen faith is greater than seen faith. Jesus could not have said that, had ALL "saving-faith" been God's choice.

Abraham was saved "by" his faith not because of it!

tell me why was Abraham justified?

Because he believed.

Faith is the EVIDENCE of things not seen , not the cause or instigator !

Sorry, read the context --- God receives man's faith, faith is active not passive.


BTW, I notice that the Calvinists are avoiding posts 106-108 completely...

 

[AndOne]

BTW, I notice that the Calvinists are avoiding posts 106-108 completely...

Well - I was going to reply - but when you brought time-travel and Star Trek into it there was no way I could seriously respond....

 

[Ben johnson]

Well - I was going to reply - but when you brought time-travel and Star Trek into it there was no way I could seriously respond....

Then reply to the "non-Star-Trek" theology.

Posts 106, 107, and 108, were particularly devastating; 106 establishes that a "dead-in-sins" man, can believe --- and that belief precedes "made-alive". 108 establishes that "God's grace is recieved by man's faith" --- faith does not make a man righteous or meritorious, faith receives God's grace and righteousness. Each assertion was fully backed by Scripture.

 

[AndOne]

Then reply to the "non-Star-Trek" theology.

It does no good. I've responded to similar posts by you, Ben. As I've said time and time again - man is not capable of the type of faith you are talking about until God makes him capable. That's the bottom line with this issue.

Your view gives man the glory in his conversion - mine gives God the glory - where it belongs...