How Should We Treat the Non-Orthodox? Fr. Seraphim Rose Responds. (Video)

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

"Fr. Seraphim Rose gives a pastoral response to a very real issue, still relevant of our day.

In his response, Fr. Seraphim holds together in harmony things that are often in tension, showing us the royal path. If we can treat people the way God would have us, more would come to Orthodoxy and find the joy we have found in Christ in His Church.

This text comes from Father Seraphim Rose: His Life and Works by Hieromonk Damascene, published by St. Herman Press in Platina, California (pgs 812-815)."


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[ArmyMatt]

amen. we lovingly respond without compromise or judgment.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

It really sounds like this person is saying, "Who am I to judge? But you are not a real Christian unless you are Orthodox." Seems like quite the paradox that the Church has to work through.

 

[buzuxi02]

It really sounds like this person is saying, "Who am I to judge? But you are not a real Christian unless you are Orthodox." Seems like quite the paradox that the Church has to work through.

He is just saying that Christ gave the command to the (Orthodox) Church to evangelize the world and perform the sacraments and no one else. But No need to be uncharitable to others who don't think the same way. If God wants to save others apart from the Church, that's great. God can do whatever He wants. But we were never given any instruction or command whether from Jesus or the apostles to simply accept everyone and every sect (John 10:1), but if God saves others, by some other mechanism fine. God does what he must and we will continue to teach and do as He taught us.

 

[Ezana]

It really sounds like this person is saying, "Who am I to judge? But you are not a real Christian unless you are Orthodox." Seems like quite the paradox that the Church has to work through.

You should probably provide a definition if you're going to use such an up-for-interpretation term as "real Christian" (which Fr. Seraphim did not use).

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

You should probably provide a definition if you're going to use such an up-for-interpretation term as "real Christian" (which Fr. Seraphim did not use).

What I believe he meant is that Faith outside of Eastern Orthodoxy is superficial. I disagree with that.

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

What I believe he meant is that Faith outside of Eastern Orthodoxy is superficial. I disagree with that.

It was challenging for me to shed The Invisible Church Doctrine as a former Evangelical Christian coming into Eastern Orthodoxy.


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[prodromos]

What I believe he meant is that Faith outside of Eastern Orthodoxy is superficial. I disagree with that.

Compared to the Orthodox faith, it largely is superficial. Catholics are barely required to do anything these days. Their fasting requirements have been watered down to almost nothing. Large swathes of evangelicals have a theology of easy-believism. All they have to do was pray a little prayer and its a done deal. No real requirement to struggle against the desires of the flesh 'cos my sins (past/present/future) are all covered by the blood of the Lamb doncha know!

So yeah, pretty superficial.

There are and always will be Christians who take their faith seriously and live lives very much in accord with the Orthodox faith, but they are the exceptions, not the rule.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What I believe he meant is that Faith outside of Eastern Orthodoxy is superficial. I disagree with that.

I can only speak for myself, but I certainly was when I was Protestant. and that is a common thing amongst converts from Western Christianity to Orthodoxy.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Their fasting requirements have been watered down to almost nothing.

Fasting never saved anyone, unless you are fasting so someone else can find salvation.

Works are fleeting. It's all about the heart. You can do the best, least selfish deeds anyone can think of, but if your heart isn't right doing it, it means nothing. You probably don't need me to tell you that though. I am just speaking my perspective here. I do agree with James about faith, but James was writing to mature Christians and not just any Christian. Why do I say this? Do you have any idea how difficult it is to give to anyone who asks? I digress. You don't need me to preach to you.

 

[prodromos]

Fasting never saved anyone, unless you are fasting so someone else can find salvation.

Fasting is a discipline, part of the process of reigning in the passions so we can train ourselves to more easily say no to temptations. It is akin to an athlete training. Who do you think runs the race to the end? The athlete who makes no effort to build his stamina and strength or the one who struggles and strives to be better than he was the day before?

1 Corinthians 9:24-25

Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
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2 Timothy 4:6-8

For I am already on the point of being sacrificed; the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
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Hebrews 12:1-2

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.​

We are called to be holy, and the Holy Orthodox Church provides the tools by which we can grow in holiness. Fasting is just one of those tools. What do the Protestant Churches provide?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

We are called to be holy, and the Holy Orthodox Church provides the tools by which we can grow in holiness. What do the Protestant Churches provide?

I cannot speak on behalf of all protestants, only for myself.

All Jesus' commandments can be summed up as John 13:34. What good is theology or practice if you do them out of duty and obligation rather than by the Spirit?

I consider myself Non-Denominational because I believe the way the Holy Spirit works is deep and wide and not shallow and narrow. I also believe the path to salvation is treaded rarely and is narrow, and there are few who find it. The world has a hardness of heart. The prince of the power of the air rules in this world.

So I do not say, "I have the correct theology, follow what I say" because there is no such thing as "perfect" theology in our day - we are too removed from Christ to have perfect theology. Any one person claiming to have True theology and practice must necessarily quote ad nauseum of this person and that. This is antithetical to the way Jesus taught, who did have "perfect", True theology. Ritual often become devoid of meaning. Satanists love their rituals, but they are the Antichrists of this world. The Spirit dwells in us and through us, not by us.

 

[ArmyMatt]

So I do not say, "I have the correct theology, follow what I say" because there is no such thing as "perfect" theology in our day - we are too removed from Christ to have perfect theology.

this is actually untrue. for starters, we're not removed from Christ at all, as He is alive and promised to be with us. and for two, there Christ commands us to be perfect, which means it can happen in our day.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

this is actually untrue. for starters, we're not removed from Christ at all, as He is alive and promised to be with us. and for two, there Christ commands us to be perfect, which means it can happen in our day.

How would you demonstrate this to me?

 

[ArmyMatt]

How would you demonstrate this to me?

the words of Christ in the Gospel contradict what you said. so either Christ is inept at keeping His Church together, or you have not yet found the Church that has kept the perfect theology. just because you have not found it, that doesn't mean it's not there.

so I would say look and see what Church has maintained the faith from the Apostles to today.

 

[prodromos]

How would you demonstrate this to me?

Read the lives of the Saints, particularly recent Saints such as St Nektarios, St Porphyrios and St Paisios and his predecessor St Arsenios.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

the words of Christ in the Gospel contradict what you said. so either Christ is inept at keeping His Church together, or you have not yet found the Church that has kept the perfect theology. just because you have not found it, that doesn't mean it's not there.

so I would say look and see what Church has maintained the faith from the Apostles to today.

That sounds like religious talk. If X Church Father got some things wrong, why would the EO Church be any different?

[Edit] Sorry, I am kinda frustrated for no reason atm. I apologise for being brutish with that first remark.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Read the lives of the Saints, particularly recent Saints such as St Nektarios, St Porphyrios and St Paisios and his predecessor St Arsenios.

Why the recent saints?

 

[ArmyMatt]

That sounds like religious talk. If X Church Father got some things wrong, why would the EO Church be any different?

[Edit] Sorry, I am kinda frustrated for no reason atm. I apologise for being brutish with that first remark.

because the EO Church goes by the consensus of the Fathers. so if one is off on certain things it's no biggie.

but I wasn't advocating for Orthodoxy, just pointing out what I quoted contradicts what Christ said.

and no worries.

 

[prodromos]

Why the recent saints?

You said "we are too removed from Christ". They are proof that 2000 years later, Christ is right here with us.