How Old Is The Earth

[trophy33]

The worlds first civilization is Mesopotamia 4000-3500BC - wow located in the Middle East

6 Early Human Civilizations | HISTORY

Key Components of Civilization

Creation did not happen 6,000 years ago just because the agricultural civilization in Mesopotamia began 6,000 years ago. However, this Mesopotamian history could be the reason why the Biblical authors saw it as "the" beginning and placed Adam to that time.

The story of the garden of Eden may be an ancient reflection of the Mesopotamian change from the hunters/gatherers society to agricultural society (which is presented as a curse, in Genesis).

Humanity existed much longer before that, though, all over the world.

 

[trophy33]

That makes the gospels too dodgy. A better approach is to go with the idea that a lot of names were left out. Which happens clearly when condensed genealogies are given that just include the top patriarchs like Jesus the son of David, the son of Joseph, the son of Abraham, the son of Noah, the son of Adam.

The idea that genealogies are (also) telescoped is quite a common one, nothing against that.

However, regarding the gospels being too dodgy, you must realize that the NT was written decades after Christ. First, they accepted who He is, then they wrote the genealogies. You do not need the genealogies (or even the written gospels) first, to accept Him. If any significant error was discovered in them, nothing changes, its just an error in the writings, not in Christ.

 

[trophy33]

Yes, the Hebrew language is very precise. To bad you do not see that. Other then Jesus no one added anything to what we receive from Moses.

You are just repeating your dogma again and again, ignoring my reactions.

 

[trophy33]

Who told us that Genesis was not literal?

What do you mean by "who"? Who told you the epos of Gilgamesh is not literal?

However, the average reader knows...

The average modern reader knows practically nothing, regarding a 3,000 years old text. This ignorance and laziness to study about the Bible and just reading it intuitively instead, leads to these useless conflicts with science, pride and misunderstandings.

If Genesis was not literal, why did the Son of God not know that?

How do you know He did not know? Again, quoting a non-literal text is a common practice. I can quote that Jesus is a door and build a theological case upon that, without believing its literal.

You see, for me, it is simple. If evolution is the truth and Genesis is a myth, then a bunch of rubes wrote the New Testament.

Rube - An unsophisticated country person.

I am not sure what is wrong about such persons. Would you be ashamed of them or something? They did not have the education of a modern university. If you told them what a common person has, knows and does today, they would consider you a liar or us to be higher beings. Just GPS or a TV would look like magic to them.

 

[Ceallaigh]

The idea that genealogies are (also) telescoped is quite a common one, nothing against that.

However, regarding the gospels being too dodgy, you must realize that the NT was written decades after Christ. First, they accepted who He is, then they wrote the genealogies. You do not need the genealogies (or even the written gospels) first, to accept Him. If any significant error was discovered in them, nothing changes, its just an error in the writings, not in Christ.

All that we know about Jesus is based on what they wrote. And indeed why would they lie about his genealogy when it wasn't necessary.

 

[Platte]

Creation did not happen 6,000 years ago just because the agricultural civilization in Mesopotamia began 6,000 years ago. However, this Mesopotamian history could be the reason why the Biblical authors saw it as "the" beginning and placed Adam to that time.

The story of the garden of Eden may be an ancient reflection of the Mesopotamian change from the hunters/gatherers society to agricultural society (which is presented as a curse, in Genesis).

Humanity existed much longer before that, though, all over the world.

The timeline and location of recorded History and Civilization do support the Biblical narrative of Creation 6000 years ago. Billions of year old earth you say yet no recorded History or Civilizations prior to 6000 years ago. The best evidence you could have to dispute Creation being 6000 years ago and instead it’s evidence supporting Creation. Where is the recorded History prior to 4000BC?

 

[Fisherking]

This is exactly what I’m talking about. Yovm doesn’t mean all these definitions there are different variations of the root word Yovm that have different meanings.

I doubt you will ever get it, tunnel vision is a real thing my friend. Yes yowm can mean DAY........but it can also mean many other TIME PERDIODS. God did not create the Universe in 6 days but in 6 time periods. Matters not what you put forth, those facts are not ever going to change, when you get to heaven and God tells you if you had listened you could have reached more peoples souls.

1.) Me being honest, this is too simple to debate, its just not a debatable issue UNLESS you MANDATE God changed the Laws of Nature(hurried the process of creation up), and since God lives in all time at once He would have no need of doing that.

2.) The Bible is PROVING ITSELF via the passages I cited. And you refuse to run with that victory. DARKNESS was on the Face of the Deep(Dark Ages on the map)........Scientists mapped out the Universe with radar, you understand radar right? Its just as true a picture as you can get, Airplanes used it to fly blind, Doctors use radar imaging to find tumors in our bodies, its REAL my friend, so do you think they just lied about that Radar Map I showed you?

Its a RADAR IMAGE.............it can not be a lie !! There was 400 million years of DARKNESS, you are just not willing to listen to facts. So, I can never reach a guy who will not even listen to facts. If a doctor showed you a radar image of a tumor would you believe it?

Verse 2 the DARKNESS was on the Face of the Deep. This proves the bible 100 percent correct via this Radar Image. Yet we do not use this to further men's faith in God's truths, WHY ?

On the Fourth Day God created the SEASON, TIMES, YEARS, DAYS........how? The Earth and Moon were two planets the same size, when they crashed into each other the earth got the bulk of the mass, and the Moon was left as a Satellite of sorts which gives us our SEASONS, Years, Days, Months etc. etc. via a gravitational pull that gives the earth orderly seasons. Without the moon the earth would basically be uninhabitable.

Its all right there. It is what it is. When you get to heaven you will instantly understand you were in error on this my friend.

 

[trophy33]

All that we know about Jesus is based on what they wrote. And indeed why would they lie about his genealogy when it wasn't necessary.

You got it wrong. The NT was written because people already believed in Jesus. People did not believe in Jesus because they read his genealogy in the NT or something.

And its the most common case even today.

Its ignorant to call common non-literal genres lies. Such genres may not be common to us, but were common to them.

 

[trophy33]

The timeline and location of recorded History and Civilization do support the Biblical narrative of Creation 6000 years ago. Billions of year old earth you say yet no recorded History or Civilizations prior to 6000 years ago. The best evidence you could have to dispute Creation being 6000 years ago and instead it’s evidence supporting Creation. Where is the recorded History prior to 4000BC?

You are still repeating your claims without actually reacting to my posts.

The beginning of the agricultural society in Mesopotamia (and so also of the writings in Mesopotamia) is not creation. Its settlement. You may see it as creation - mythologically, culturally, if you wish. But not literally/scientifically.

 

[Ceallaigh]

I doubt you will ever get it, tunnel vision is a real thing my friend. Yes yown can mean DAY........but it can also mean many other TIME PERDIODS. God did not create the Universe in 6 days but in 6 time periods. Matters not what you put forth, those facts are not going t change, when you get to heaven and Gd tells you if you had listened you could have reached more peoples souls.

1.) being honest, this is too simple to debate, its just not a debatable issue UNLESS you MAN DATE God changed the Laws of Nature, and since God lives in all time at once He would have no need of doing that.

2.) The Bible is PROVING ITSELF via the passages I cited. And you refuse to run with that victory. DARKNESS was on the Face of the Deep........Scientists mapped out the Universe with radar, you understand radar right? Its just as true a picture as you can get Airplanes used it to fly blind, Doctors use radar imaging to find tumors in our bodies, its REAL my friend, so do you think they just lied about that Radar Map I showed you?

View attachment 345627


Its a RADAR IMAGE.............it can not be a lie !! There was 400 million years of DARKNESS, you are just not willing to listen to facts. So, I can never reach a guy who will not even listen to facts. If a doctor showed you a rad image of a tumor would you believe it?

Verse 2 the DARKNESS was on the Face of the Deep. This proves the bible 100 percent correct via tis Radar Image. Yet we do not use this to further men's faith in God's truths, WHY ?

The Fourth Day created the SEASON, TIMES, YEARS, DAYS........how? The Earth and Moon were two planets the same size, when they crashed into each other the earth got the bulk of the mass, and the Moon was left as a Satellite which gives us our SEASONS, Years, Days, Months etc. etc.

Its all right there. It is what it is. When you get to heaven you will instantly understand you were in error.

That's a graphic illustration. A depiction. Not the same thing as a radiological image.

 

[Ceallaigh]

You got it wrong. The NT was written because people already believed in Jesus. People did not believe in Jesus because they read his genealogy in the NT or something.

And its the most common case even today.

Its ignorant to call common non-literal genres lies. Such genres may not be common to us, but were common to them.

The gospels are a record of how Jesus came into being and everything he said, taught and commanded. Accuracy along those lines is essential. If Matthew and Luke made up his genealogy they were not telling the truth about it. A genealogy doesn't fall within the scope of "non-literal genre" ie metaphor and simile. Also you keep lumping those who had direct access to God either in the form of Yahweh or Yahshua with the rest of the populace. Like even though they spent extensive time in direct communication with God, they didn't know any more than anyone else. It doesn't add up.

 

[Mercy Shown]

What do you mean by "who"? Who told you the epos of Gilgamesh is not literal?


The average modern reader knows practically nothing, regarding a 3,000 years old text. This ignorance and laziness to study about the Bible and just reading it intuitively instead, leads to these useless conflicts with science, pride and misunderstandings.

For me it is the living relationship with God that radically changed and healed my life.

The book is all about Jesus Christ and His plan of salvation. For me it either stands as a whole or falls as a whole. Genesis is so intertwined with the rest of the book that if it is not true, none of it is true.

I can respect the positions of people like Dawkins, the new atheists, as consistent because they understand this. But I can’t subscribe to their beliefs because those beliefs have no power to change a filthy sinner into a child of God.

How do you know He did not know? Again, quoting a non-literal text is a common practice. I can quote that Jesus is a door and build a theological case upon that, without believing its literal.

You are quoting an an obvious metaphor not a narrative. Jesus acknowledged the 7 day creation every Sabbath. The 4th commandment is very explicit as to why it was issued. If I believe it was imported into the tablet of stone not by the finger of God, but by some zealous priest with a chisel, then it casts doubt on the whole book and the religion it would be peddling.

Rube - An unsophisticated country person.

I am not sure what is wrong about such persons. Would you be ashamed of them or something? They did not have the education of a modern university. If you told them what a common person has, knows and does today, they would consider you a liar or us to be higher beings. Just GPS or a TV would look like magic to them.

Modern university? The institutions that have muddled the minds of so many of our kids to the point that they can’t discern a man from a woman.

I can’t trust human institutions whether churches or secular humanist universities for knowledge of God.

 

[trophy33]

The gospels are a record of how Jesus came into being and everything he said, taught and commanded. Accuracy along those lines is essential. If Matthew and Luke made up his genealogy they were not telling the truth about it. A genealogy doesn't fall within the scope of "non-literal genre" ie metaphor and simile. Also you keep lumping those who had direct access to God either in the form of Yahweh or Yahshua with the rest of the populace. Like even though they spent extensive time in direct communication with God, they didn't know any more than anyone else. It doesn't add up.

Gospels are accurate enough, but not perfectly. Just compare them to each other and you will find many differences. If you believe the genealogies are telescoped, its just another way of not being literal.

If you build your faith on such marginal things like genealogies in which you have no way to verify the names anyway, its a recipe for disappointment.

 

[trophy33]

Genesis is so intertwined with the rest of the book that if it is not true, none of it is true.

Heaven, heavens.

The OT shared the general ancient opinion about the construction of the universe [collectively »the heavens and the earth« Gn 1:1] and combined the primitive ideas of Egypt and Babylon, but did not accept their mythology and cosmogony [the doctrine of the creation of the universe from divine elements].

The universe was three-part [heaven above, earth below, waters under the earth Ex 20.4 sr. Psalm 115:15-17].

The earth formed the center of the universe in the world sea [Ps 24:2], which was touched by the "ends of the earth" [Dt 33:17; 1S 2.10; Jer 16:19; Mi 5,4 et seq.], had the form of a circular mass [Kral. "enclosure" Is 40:22], supported by rocky pillars [Ps 104:5] so that it does not move. But God also has these foundations in his power [Jb 9:6], and just his glance is enough to make the earth shake [Ps 104:32].

According to Job 26.7, however, the earth rests on nothing.

Beneath it, if not beneath the sea on which the earth floats, was the underworld, Sheol. Above it was stretched the hemispherical sky [heavens Př 8,27n] like a tent canvas [Ps 104,2; Isaiah 40:22]. It rests on the highest mountains [2S 22.8 »foundations of the heavens«; Jb 26,11 "heavenly pillars"], has gates [Gn 28,17] and vents through which the rain falls [Gn 7,11; 2 Kings 7:2; Ps 78,23n], kept according to Jb 38,37 in sacks, while hail, snow, wind and manna are stored in special chambers [Jb 37,8; 38.22n; Ps 135,7n]. On the inside were fixed the stars, the sun and the moon [Gn 1,14-18; Eze 32.7n].

Clouds float under the heavens [Ps 147:8], which the Lord uses as chariots [Ps 104:3], and the birds of the sky fly by [Gn 1:26, 28, 30; 2.19n; 6.7; 7,3 and j.]. On the outer side of the heavens, the heavenly waters are gathered [Gn 1,6n; Ps 148.4; Jer 10:13; 51.16]. From the expression "heavens of heavens" [Dt 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; 2 Peter 2:6; 6.18; Neh 9:6; Psalm 148,4], some researchers conclude that Israel, like the Babylonians, believed in several layers of heaven, but others consider this to be only poetic hyperbole. In no case is this an attempt to create some "natural science" opinion, but poetic-religious illustrative interpretations of daily knowledge, the basic idea of which was the majesty of God.

Therefore, it is also not possible to introduce the biblical opinion about the universe into a comprehensive system like the surrounding nations. Israel lacked the mythologizing ability to transform the universe into a system of interdependent or warring deities. He used the expressions of surrounding religions, but only to express his basic concept of God as the Creator of heaven and earth [Gn 1,1; 2.4; 14, 19, 22; Psalm 33:6; Proverbs 3:19; 8.27; Isaiah 42:5; 45.18]. That is why the Bible can simultaneously speak of the universe as an unrolled papyrus scroll, described by constellations as signs of the wisdom of God [Is 34:4], or of a palace [Am 9:6; Psalm 104:3].
(Adolf Novotný, Biblický slovník, p. 480, google translate)

If the ancient Hebrew worldview is not literally true, then nothing in the Bible is true? Thats a very shaky (and quite ignorant) position.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Gospels are accurate enough, but not perfectly. Just compare them to each other and you will find many differences. If you believe the genealogies are telescoped, its just another way of not being literal.

If you build your faith on such marginal things like genealogies in which you have no way to verify the names anyway, its a recipe for disappointment.

I think the genealogies being telescoped is a better explanation than them being fudged, if a Christian needs them to not be precise to aid their attempt to reconcile scripture with evolution.

 

[trophy33]

I think the genealogies being telescoped is a better explanation than them being fudged, if a Christian needs them to not be precise to aid their attempt to reconcile scripture with evolution.

Nobody has or had genealogies leading to Adam. So there was no possible way for the gospel authors to get them and copy them.

Your only choice is to believe that gospels were given in some kind of the automatic dictation, but gospels have so many inaccuracies in things like places, times, contexts that its also not probable. Also, such event would be mentioned in the gospels, while Luke is saying the opposite (he was personally doing the work).

Therefore, what is left is that, the youngest parts of those genealogies are more or less realistic (it was possible to get them, either from some temple documents or from the memory of people) and the further ones will be more and more mythological, symbolic.

Not sure why do you hang on it so much. If 80% of those genealogies changed tomorrow in your Bible, you would not even notice. Christianity does not depend on them.

 

[Platte]

You are still repeating your claims without actually reacting to my posts.

The beginning of the agricultural society in Mesopotamia (and so also of the writings in Mesopotamia) is not creation. Its settlement. You may see it as creation - mythologically, culturally, if you wish. But not literally/scientifically.

LIke I said in my first post - its not complicated. Civilization began approximatly 6000 years ago....Recorded History began approximatly 6000 years ago...Language began approximately 6000 years ago...Writing began approximately 6000 years ago...and based on the chronologies of the Bible, Creation occured approximately 6000 years ago (and took 6 days). History supports Creation occuring 6000 years ago. Science does not support it - as would be expected.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Nobody has or had genealogies leading to Adam. So there was no possible way for the gospel authors to get them and copy them.

Your only choice is to believe they were given in some kind of the automatic dictation, but gospels have so many inaccuracies in things like places, times, contexts that its also not probable.

Therefore, what is left is that, the youngest parts of those genealogies are more or less realistic (it was possible to get them, either from some temple documents or from the memory of people) and the further ones will be more and more mythological, symbolic.

Not sure why do you hang on it so much, if 80% of those genealogies changed tomorrow in your Bible, you would not even notice. Christianity does not depend on them.

What I take exception to is going too far with calling things in scripture symbolic and especially with calling them mythological. When it comes to genealogies, they took place in stages. Abraham was a very important person, so it's not unusual for him to have a genealogy. Likewise it wouldn't be unusual for King David to have a genealogy. Each of the older genealogies go from one significant patriarch to the next. I don't see it as being close to impossible the way you do. Rather I find it quite possible and doable.

 

[Ceallaigh]

LIke I said in my first post - its not complicated. Civilization began approximatly 6000 years ago....Recorded History began approximatly 6000 years ago...Language began approximately 6000 years ago...Writing began approximately 6000 years ago...and based on the chronologies of the Bible, Creation occured approximately 6000 years ago (and took 6 days). History supports Creation occuring 6000 years ago. Science does not support it - as would be expected.

I really don't see why some Christians have a hard time with this and feel the need to overcomplicate it.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Heaven, heavens.

The OT shared the general ancient opinion about the construction of the universe [collectively »the heavens and the earth« Gn 1:1] and combined the primitive ideas of Egypt and Babylon, but did not accept their mythology and cosmogony [the doctrine of the creation of the universe from divine elements].

The universe was three-part [heaven above, earth below, waters under the earth Ex 20.4 sr. Psalm 115:15-17].

The earth formed the center of the universe in the world sea [Ps 24:2], which was touched by the "ends of the earth" [Dt 33:17; 1S 2.10; Jer 16:19; Mi 5,4 et seq.], had the form of a circular mass [Kral. "enclosure" Is 40:22], supported by rocky pillars [Ps 104:5] so that it does not move. But God also has these foundations in his power [Jb 9:6], and just his glance is enough to make the earth shake [Ps 104:32].

According to Job 26.7, however, the earth rests on nothing.

Beneath it, if not beneath the sea on which the earth floats, was the underworld, Sheol. Above it was stretched the hemispherical sky [heavens Př 8,27n] like a tent canvas [Ps 104,2; Isaiah 40:22]. It rests on the highest mountains [2S 22.8 »foundations of the heavens«; Jb 26,11 "heavenly pillars"], has gates [Gn 28,17] and vents through which the rain falls [Gn 7,11; 2 Kings 7:2; Ps 78,23n], kept according to Jb 38,37 in sacks, while hail, snow, wind and manna are stored in special chambers [Jb 37,8; 38.22n; Ps 135,7n]. On the inside were fixed the stars, the sun and the moon [Gn 1,14-18; Eze 32.7n].

Clouds float under the heavens [Ps 147:8], which the Lord uses as chariots [Ps 104:3], and the birds of the sky fly by [Gn 1:26, 28, 30; 2.19n; 6.7; 7,3 and j.]. On the outer side of the heavens, the heavenly waters are gathered [Gn 1,6n; Ps 148.4; Jer 10:13; 51.16]. From the expression "heavens of heavens" [Dt 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; 2 Peter 2:6; 6.18; Neh 9:6; Psalm 148,4], some researchers conclude that Israel, like the Babylonians, believed in several layers of heaven, but others consider this to be only poetic hyperbole. In no case is this an attempt to create some "natural science" opinion, but poetic-religious illustrative interpretations of daily knowledge, the basic idea of which was the majesty of God.

Therefore, it is also not possible to introduce the biblical opinion about the universe into a comprehensive system like the surrounding nations. Israel lacked the mythologizing ability to transform the universe into a system of interdependent or warring deities. He used the expressions of surrounding religions, but only to express his basic concept of God as the Creator of heaven and earth [Gn 1,1; 2.4; 14, 19, 22; Psalm 33:6; Proverbs 3:19; 8.27; Isaiah 42:5; 45.18]. That is why the Bible can simultaneously speak of the universe as an unrolled papyrus scroll, described by constellations as signs of the wisdom of God [Is 34:4], or of a palace [Am 9:6; Psalm 104:3].
(Adolf Novotný, Biblický slovník, p. 480, google translate)

If the ancient Hebrew worldview is not literally true, then nothing in the Bible is true? Thats a very shaky (and quite ignorant) position.

I understand all of this poetry. And I understand that their knowledge was limited to what they could see. But for me, it does not alter the contents of the fourth commandment, which is pretty straightforward. Whereas those who are unbelievers in the OT history of the world see the OT sprinkled with mythologies of other nations, I see it the opposite way around. There was perfect knowledge of the natural world that degraded as time passed and gave birth to the many varied myths amongst all peoples of the earth.

What the disbelievers in the OT earth's history see as foreign myths creeping into the Hebrew literature, I see as the truth of the OT corrupted and reflected in the foreign myths. Describing things in poetry does not make them false; it conveys the deeper meaning of the narrative. As I have stated before, metaphors are easily distinguished from factual narratives. If hyperbole, exaggeration, metaphors, and similes were not easy to distinguish from the narrative, they would be useless tools.

Ultimately, culling out all the poetry and metaphors and trying to cobble them into a false OT worldview doesn't work for me. It just comes off as a vain attempt to cast shade on the bible rather than taking the text as a whole. If I tell you my friend got stoned over the weekend, and then he shows up with no bruises, cuts, or signs of physical trauma, will you call me a liar?

2 Peter 3:5-7 But they deliberately forget that long ago, by God’s word, the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.