How many denominations would pass through Torah unblemished?

[Linet Kihonge]

Some of the earliest churches today, either dropped the 10 commandments somewhere or lost some interpretation somewhere. It's either the Bible isn't the inspired word of God or it's not important in determining God's Code of CONDUCT on any church. The issue is not judging the issue is, how far has become too far? How much was just too much? How far could God's word get in directing a saint's path? Is it as far as personal life is concerned or is it as far as it fits the times or not? In other words, if we were to observe the Laws of Moses (10 Commandment and Sins in direct relation to them) in the strictest sense of it, how many of us would come out CLEAN?

Sorry, if you identify this pic. but let's start with how much of praying to the rested persons went too far?

Please, let's debate like the grown ups we preach? On the other hand, it won't go without saying that veneration is also not the only issue but there's also this movement of "You are getting your promotion I can feel it in my Spirit" bla bla bla. Masses have been moved by these teachings and we are not only ending up valuing things of this world that are bound to vanish any time now but we are focusing people on other kinds of idols, and that idol is the "Idol of Riches of the world." We end up praising and blessing God with hopes of buying him into getting you that new mercedes or that "Penthouse" in the upscale suburbs. I mean who do we desire most at the end of it all, is it God through the idols or God whether the icons or riches burnt in HELL as well?

 

[Open Heart]

It's either the Bible isn't the inspired word of God or it's not important in determining God's Code of CONDUCT on any church.

Before you even start on this, defend your position that the 10 commandments are somehow still to be obeyed while the rest of the 613 are to be forgotten. For example, why is it that we should still be keeping a Saturday Sabbath, but it's okay to commit incest or inappropriate behavior with animals?

I think I would agree with you that we are to keep God's laws. The question is, WHAT are the laws which apply to ME? Because not all of God's laws apply to every person. For example, some of the laws in the Torah apply only to the High Priest, i.e. the High Priest is to only marry a virgin: "He shall take a wife in her virginity." Lev 21:13 Does that apply to everyone? Of course not. It didn't even apply to all Israelites! Some of the 613 only applied to men. Some only to women. Some only while in the Promised Land. Some only while there is a valid place to offer sacrifice (such as the Temple on the Temple Mount).

The thing about the laws given at Sinai is that they were given to ISRAEL. Over and over and over it is written, "And the LORD said to Moses, "Speak to the Children of Israel...." A subset of these laws are universal, because Jews are human beings, so of course they must obey the laws that all human beings must obey. But they were given many laws that were peculiar to them, because just as the priests had extra laws just for the priesthood, Israel is a priestly people, and so has additional laws compared to the nations.

The question then becomes, "If I am not a Jew, not a Child of Israel, then what laws do I as a Gentile need to obey, since not every law listed in the Torah applies to me?" My answer is twofold:

• Love your neighbor as yourself. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Pretty simple stuff.
• Read the New Testament. With the exception of one gospel and two epistles, it was all written for Gentiles. It lists a lot of sins to avoid and good works to do. For example, nowhere in the NT does it command Gentiles to keep the Sabbath, but it does say to avoid sodomy, gossip, sorcery, etc.

I'm not opposed to Christians who start with the idea of keeping the 10, so long as you understand two things:

1. The Church switched the solemnity from the Sabbath (Saturday) to the Lord's Day (the day Christ rose, Sunday).
2. That the 10 are just a start -- we need to search the scriptures for everything God deems a sin, and ask the HS to reveal to us all the ways we don't love our neighbor as ourselves.

 

[Open Heart]

Sorry, if you identify this pic. but let's start with how much of praying to the rested persons went too far?

Please, let's debate like the grown ups we preach? On the other hand, it won't go without saying that veneration is also not the only issue

I'm sure that you have many issues with Catholicism. But it's only fair to deal with one or two at a time, otherwise you are just emotionally "dumping" and not really engaging in an intelligent conversation, not really trying to understand.

I'm a convert to Catholicism. At one time in my life, I had the same alarming thoughts that you have. But I listened to the answers that Catholics gave, and I realized that I had misunderstood them. I hope you will listen to me. In the end, you may still disagree with what we do, you may think we are wasting our time talking to saints that can't hear us, but you will at least come to understand that we are not worshiping idols. Let me take it one point at a time.

A. ONLY GOD IS GOD. WE WORSHIP ONLY GOD.
A Saint, even Mary, no matter how loved, how honored, how venerated, is still just a human being. We do not give them the kind of worship that we reserve for God alone.

B. STATUES ARE ONLY CERAMIC AND METAL.
They are inspirational art, meant to remind us of the saints they represent. Of themselves they have absolutely zero power.

C. PRAYER IS NOT WORSHIP.
I realize that Protestants only pray to God, and because of that, they confuse prayer with worship. But prayer is NOT worship. Prayer is talking to those you can't see or hear. Just talking. It CAN be used to worship, and it IS often used to worship God. But it is not used for worship when we pray to saints. If we aren't worshiping them, then why are we talking to them? See the next point:

D. WE ARE DIRECTED TO ASK OTHERS TO PRAY FOR US.
"Pray one for another." We are all the body of Christ, those believers here on earth, and those in heaven. Unlike Protestants, who never stop to think about Christians who are with the Lord, we Catholics feel they are still very close to us, their prayers going up as incense before the altar of God (Rev 12). We of course pray directly to God through Christ, that's our first line of action. But we go to others for prayers, too. "The prayers of a righteous man avails much." And here is what I'm trying to say: it is NO DIFFERENT to ask St. Francis to pray for me than to ask YOU to pray for me.

E. ALL HELP ULTIMATELY COMES FROM GOD.
We may speak of Saints helping us, but really the only thing they actually do is pray for us. It is God helping us in answer to their prayers that we hope for. To say that "St Anthony helped me find my car keys!" is a bit like someone saying "Paul healed me when I touched his apron!" Well, yeah, kinda sorta ina way... but we know really it was God.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Okay, let's deal with Torah. Torah should be effective in as far as the laws that required or were consisted with the 10 commandments. Under every commandment there was a further emphasis on how to observe them. Those extra explanations + the 10 are what form the Torah. The Torah also involved,

[Acts 15: We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.]

So the four sins were well explained in Torah, and the 1 Corinthians 5 is also addressing a sin addressed in Torah. IOW, there are things that are still applicable to all human beings who've chosen the Way of the LORD. So the laws you mentioned were the Laws of the Temples and those are no longer useful to the growth and preserving mankind from perishing because the temple was DESTROYED during early 1st Century. Right now, we are the temples and we are to hold it in esteem as the LORD held the Temple of Jerusalem in the highest standards.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

First of all Catholics don't pray to Idols, (I AGREE) but instead pray to the Christ or the Saint of the represented icon. So they help focus better. In fact, it's with the best interests that through the icons the believer will get closer to God. On the other hand,

1. [Lev 19:4, "You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.]

First of all, it's forbidden to just to create an image of anything on earth or heavens above especially in the aims of honoring whatever you believe it should represent.

Just because Catholics have good intentions with the icons it doesn't mean God is happy about them or instructed how to use them in the first place.

Also, remember that the Children of Israel started burning incense to the Snake Moses had created while in the wilderness and in 2 Kings 18, King Hezekiah destroyed it into pieces. I have every reason to believe that they were not praying to the Serpent but how God made it to heal them from the venomous snakes. SO they believed that God would still use the same power to heal them but he didn't instead he had it destroyed because he said, "You shall not bow down to them or worship them." The issue isn't having 10 carved images of Christ in my Home but kneeling before them because I'm kneeling to Jesus to ask him for something.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

As far as Yhwh's Word, Spirit, and evidence indicates, the 'last' groups (called 'denominations') historically that passed the test
were those who obeyed Jesus. (several centuries ago)

 

[Open Heart]

Okay, let's deal with Torah. Torah should be effective in as far as the laws that required or were consisted with the 10 commandments. Under every commandment there was a further emphasis on how to observe them. Those extra explanations + the 10 are what form the Torah. The Torah also involved,

Not so. For example, the 10 don't say a thing about inappropriate behavior with animals. (It's not adultery.) They don't say anything against casting spells. (There's no idols involved.) They say not one word about Gossip, even though both the OT and the NT specifically list it as a sin. (It's not perjury.)

 

[Open Heart]

First of all, it's forbidden to just to create an image of anything on earth or heavens above especially in the aims of honoring whatever you believe it should represent.

No, it doesn't say "aims of honoring it." The verse refers to worship, as in worship that belongs to God. We don't do that.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Do you worship Jesus when you pray to the icon of Jesus? Anyway, is there a book on how we should honor the LORD using icons and symbols!!!

 

[Open Heart]

Do you worship Jesus when you pray to the icon of Jesus? Anyway, is there a book on how we should honor the LORD using icons and symbols!!!

Of course!!!!!!! The icon is simply inspirational art that is there to assist me in worshiping Christ (not the icon itself). Good insight Linet.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

OpenHeart, I know you don't to pray to the cast/the image but who they stand for. There's an adoration to the Saints I never said you worship anything. So the issue is there's no place in Canon that offers any kind of insight on how to venerate symbols or honor great men of the Past using icons. Have I said, it's a sin to have icons? No. We too have icons of people we thought were great in our histories as a nation or as saints. The Lord doesn't condemn paintings of whatever we like, it's okay. The issue is the kind of attention given to them. Ironically, people don't pray to Saints since Torah but only to GOD.

 

[Open Heart]

OpenHeart, I know you don't to pray to the cast/the image but who they stand for. There's an adoration to the Saints I never said you worship anything. So the issue is there's no place in Canon that offers any kind of insight on how to venerate symbols or honor great men of the Past using icons. Have I said, it's a sin to have icons? No. We too have icons of people we thought were great in our histories as a nation or as saints. The Lord doesn't condemn paintings of whatever we like, it's okay. The issue is the kind of attention given to them. Ironically, people don't pray to Saints since Torah but only to GOD.

We've asked the Saints for their prayers for 2000 years.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

I know and I'm worried they haven't failed to deliver as per the request!

 

[visionary]

First of all Catholics don't pray to Idols, (I AGREE) but instead pray to the Christ or the Saint of the represented icon. So they help focus better. In fact, it's with the best interests that through the icons the believer will get closer to God. On the other hand,

1. [Lev 19:4, "You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.]

First of all, it's forbidden to just to create an image of anything on earth or heavens above especially in the aims of honoring whatever you believe it should represent.

Just because Catholics have good intentions with the icons it doesn't mean God is happy about them or instructed how to use them in the first place.

Also, remember that the Children of Israel started burning incense to the Snake Moses had created while in the wilderness and in 2 Kings 18, King Hezekiah destroyed it into pieces. I have every reason to believe that they were not praying to the Serpent but how God made it to heal them from the venomous snakes. SO they believed that God would still use the same power to heal them but he didn't instead he had it destroyed because he said, "You shall not bow down to them or worship them." The issue isn't having 10 carved images of Christ in my Home but kneeling before them because I'm kneeling to Jesus to ask him for something.

But isn't that the reasoning for all image focus to help with the worshiping of what they represent? IT really helps when the images cry blood/water from eyes too.

 

[visionary]

Can you image Yeshua worshiping using images of His earthly mother or one of Moses, Elijah, etc? He is our example of how to prayer, walk, talk, and believe.

 

[Linet Kihonge]

But isn't that the reasoning for all image focus to help with the worshiping of what they represent? IT really helps when the images cry blood/water from eyes too.

Oh dear, I know there's a shrine whose statue of the "Virgin" has been growing for a while now. I'm not sure how tall she is, so far!

 

[Open Heart]

But isn't that the reasoning for all image focus to help with the worshiping of what they represent? IT really helps when the images cry blood/water from eyes too.

No. With Saints, they get veneration and our requests for prayer, not the kind of worship we give to God alone. How many times have I already explained that to you, vis?

 

[Linet Kihonge]

This is what visionary is saying, God mocked images since time immemorial. The first time he did that was when the Israelites became so stubborn that he sent snakes to kill them and after showing remorse he asked Moses to raise a Bronze Snake in which they would look to and get healed. The two fold message was the people would only Look up to the LORD for salvation from eternal death and the people would only save their lives if they looked to the snake. However, the other message, was to remind them that He WAS GOD!.

What if the LORD came and asked me, "Linet, curve out an image of yourself and pray for your healing!" Does it sound right? GOD doesn't lisp when it comes to his authority on him as God. Anyway, the Philistines knew the God of Israel Better than some of the faiths in the world today The LORD asked them to curve images of their tumors and mice(representing their five cities) as a penance for thinking they could keep the ark instead of his Chosen children! Why wouldn't he do the same with Catholics?

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Most faiths that are growing and flourishing doesn't mean God isn't mad! This is all he's been up to

[Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

“The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

“ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

“ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’ ”]

He came to seek and save the LOST!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

First of all Catholics don't pray to Idols, (I AGREE) but instead pray to the Christ or the Saint of the represented icon. So they help focus better. In fact, it's with the best interests that through the icons the believer will get closer to God. On the other hand,
1. [Lev 19:4, "You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol

You contradict youself here (maybe (hope) unintentionally).
Stick with the Scripture you've posted, not the habits of men who are disobedient that you mentioned.

Why wouldn't he do the same with Catholics?

He never said He would. He never said He did. He warned strictly not to do what they do.
There's a ton of things directly contrary to Scripture they do, for 2000 years,
much of it posted /published in writings readily available to those who want to know the truth.

Most faiths that are growing and flourishing doesn't mean God isn't mad!

Mad or Great Sorrow
because God takes no joy in the death of the wicked.