How do the gifts of the Holy Spirit build up the Church?

[quietbloke]

I think the church say the same thing about traditions. The bible agrees to the church's traditions and never contrary to it. Who is right? You, them, both, or neither?

The inspired Word of God from Genesis to Revelation,the Bible is always right!

 

[Biblicist]

If the utterance in tongues is for God to man,the value of tongues with interpretation is equal to prophecy (1 Cor.14:5) and the Church is edified in a different way.

1 Cor 14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.​

If you look at this passage again you will find that Paul does not suggest that the Holy Spirit (not the Father) will speak to man. People have misconstrued the Greek oikodomen which means edification, to somehow imply that Paul is saying that the Holy Spirit will also speak to man. If this is the only passage that we use to support this strange practice then those churches who still allow this to occur need to stop it as soon as possible.

One of Paul’s key themes in 1 Cor 14 is with intelligibility; as the Holy Spirit will only communicate using inarticulate tongues (unintelligible language), then we must follow up each occurrence of congregational tongues with an articulation of each tongue that will enable the rest of the congregation to be ‘edified’ through their understanding of what the Holy Spirit has said to the Father.

Tongues are not always addressed to God. All the verses that give the impression that speaking with tongues is to God indicate that speaking with tongues may take the form of praising. They do not demonstrate that they must do so.

Can you give an example from the Scriptures of where the Holy Spirit has ever directed a word in tongues to man; if you can, you would be the first who has even been able to do so.

As Paul tells us that the purpose (or content) of what the Holy Spirit says to the Father within the congregational setting is in “praise or thanksgiving” (14:16) and that even Acts 2:11 demonstrates that the Spirit “speaks of the wonders of God”; then how can we conclude from these passages that the Holy Spirit will ever direct a word to either the congregation or to an individual member?

Paul is saying that tongues without interpretation must be to God because no one understands it,but he is not saying that with interpretation tongues cannot be the vehicle of a message from God to man. In v.21 he refers to God using another tongue to speak to people.

The first thing that needs to be pointed out is where does Paul ever suggest that tongues can ever be “a message from God to man”, Paul does not even hint that this is at all possible.

The passages (pericope) of 1Cor 14:20-25 goes to the very core of Paul’s concern with intelligibility within the congregational setting. Paul is making reference to the invading Syrian army that conquered Jerusalem, where the rampaging soldiers were understandably giving commands to the population in a language that their victims did not know. Besides causing confusion amongst the Jews, it also frustrated the invaders, where more often than not the next command that they gave was with the slice of their swords.

Paul is pointing out that as the unknown tongues of the Syrian invaders caused confusion and bewilderment amongst those who did not understand what was being said, the same goes for the unsaved and cessationist visitor, where their lack of understanding toward “the things of the Spirit” will most likely serve to harden them against the Gospel when they encounter everyone speaking in unintelligible tongues during times of praise and worship.

So Paul is not suggesting that “God is speaking to people”, where we would never suggest that the cursing and abusive words that the Syrian invaders were directing to the people of Israel were in anyway the ‘words of God’; but Paul is wisely condemning the practice where an entire congregation begins to speak in ‘unintelligible words of praise and thanksgiving’ to the Father in the presence of those who do not understand Spiritual things.

 

[Biblicist]

But why repeat what's already in the bible to the others?

Tell me, when you praise God during your times of devotion, do you only quote from the Scriptures or do you allow yourself to offer your own words of praise? When you have reason to thank God for some particular provision, do you feel that there is a need to go to the Scriptures to find something that fits? When you pray for a personal or family need or for the needs of another person, do you feel the need to search the Scriptures for a particular verse that fits your situation?

 

[tulipbee]

The inspired Word of God from Genesis to Revelation,the Bible is always right!

Sounds good to me.

 

[tulipbee]

Tell me, when you praise God during your times of devotion, do you only quote from the Scriptures or do you allow yourself to offer your own words of praise? When you have reason to thank God for some particular provision, do you feel that there is a need to go to the Scriptures to find something that fits? When you pray for a personal or family need or for the needs of another person, do you feel the need to search the Scriptures for a particular verse that fits your situation?

I do the actual healing and long distance healing. They get results.

 

[Biblicist]

I do the actual healing and long distance healing. They get results.

I'm not all that sure that this has any real bearing to the question that I asked.

 

[tulipbee]

I'm not all that sure that this has any real bearing to the question that I asked.

Tell me, when you praise God during your times of devotion, do you only quote from the Scriptures or do you allow yourself to offer your own words of praise? When you have reason to thank God for some particular provision, do you feel that there is a need to go to the Scriptures to find something that fits? When you pray for a personal or family need or for the needs of another person, do you feel the need to search the Scriptures for a particular verse that fits your situation?

I devote much more seriously than most everyday people doing everyday things like most on cf. All my time is about getting closer to God. As an elect, being close to God and observing His work is without difficulty, save that it avoids picking and choosing. Only when you stop liking and disliking will all be clearly understood. A split hair's difference, and heaven and earth are set apart! If you want to get the plain truth, be not concerned with right and wrong. The conflict between right and wrong is the sickness of the mind. Using vocal words is a tradition. It doesn't work at all for those that can't speak and they get doomed by those that believe in certain patterns of traditions. The questions are mostly from the traditions of popular denominations. It's only a fad til they hear the truth when they stop following pastors in sheep's clothing. When God has already determine the needs and salvation of His people, we comfort them through their journeys. Predestination rings true and regeneration precedes faith are spoken from the bible guided by the holy spirit, will fill the needs of His people due to His promises already made. If it is already made then we give His people hope and healings. Most on cf wants men to use more nonexistent free will to create more faith to regenerate themselves better cause the unfamiliar spirit tells them, "if they can, they ought" . The truths are they can't due to being sinners. You ought not to fight man's total depravity against God and return to God and give Him proper worship. The questions you ask are traditional and they're picking right and wrong like a speeding bullet that makes them more lost than ever and creates more ailments. I see more people in certain denominations loaded and packed tighty with ailments and they spend most of all of their time preaching faith precedes regeneration which was created from a legged snake. It is God that fits everything to the elect's situations that ensures God keeps His promises. They don't run around insulting a blind person and tell him that his faith isn't strong enough to heal himself and see. It is God that works out the person's salvation, not men nor them. Why would a blind or a deaf person in many denominations want to spend every moment for the rest of thier lives begging on thier knees to change what God already willed to do. Everyday those that are well look at disabled people like they don't have the faith and they are haunted by thier aggressive free wills. It's called equal rights. Most needs to give folks rights to live what God willed. They don't say its God's will for blinds to see and they still don't see. They degrade them to a lower level that means most have no clue of God's plans for them. The deafs get harnessed by the wolves in sheepskin. This is extreme sickness. Return to worship God and observe his workings in the true church.

 

[quietbloke]

I'm sorry I cannot see the relevance of what is said by 'tulipbee' in the post before this. It has nothing to do with the matter we are discussing

 

[tulipbee]

I'm sorry I cannot see the relevance of what is said by 'tulipbee' in the post before this. It has nothing to do with the matter we are discussing

I was responding to a post, secondly. But to me as a Pentecostal, its perfectly OK to go with the flow of the vibrating vocal phenomenon to build up a denomination.

 

[Biblicist]

I was responding to a post, secondly. But to me as a Pentecostal, its perfectly OK to go with the flow of the vibrating vocal phenomenon to build up a denomination.

Is the "vibrating vocal phenomenon" a new Christian band?

 

[tulipbee]

Is the "vibrating vocal phenomenon" a new Christian band?

It's an event that happens in the brain.

 

[quietbloke]

'It's good that we can discuss the Word of God together. We all have our sincere convictions and we won't agree on every detail. In this discussion of the spiritual gifts of speaking in tongues with interpretation (when there is a public utterance in tongues) we can only say what we believe the Word of God says. I believe that the interpretation can be manward or Godward depending on the nature of the tongue. If it is publicly given and is Godward then it needs to be publicly interpreted. If it is manward and the utterance is for us it needs to be interpreted as such. 'Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts,especially the gift of prophecy (1 Cor.13:1) v.2 says 'For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God'. When speaking in tongues to God after being filled with the Holy Spirit. If we are in private an interpretation is not required. In public an utterance that is given out loud should be interpreted. It may be inspired by God as a message and should be interpreted as such. In both cases it is so that the Church is edified. The reason why Paul said that tongues is 'not to man' is given in the same verse,'because no one understands it'. Tongues without interpretation must be to God,because without interpretation nobody can understand it. This is not implying that with interpretation tongues cannot be a message from God to man.

 

[quietbloke]

It's an event that happens in the brian

Are you talking about 'The life of Brian?'

 

[tulipbee]

Are you talking about 'The life of Brian?'

No

 

[com7fy8]

"Be hospitable to one another without grumbling. As every one has received a gift, minister it to one another, as good stewards of the manifold wisdom of God." (1 Peter 4:9-10)

So, from this I see that every true spiritual gift ministers God's own grace. God's grace is the effect of His own love in us, making us more and more how this love is, in our nature. This makes us more and more conformed to Jesus (Romans 8:29, Galatians 4:19).

Therefore, I consider, every true gift is not only for doing outwardly seen things. But the main thing is how the effect of God's own love is ministered deeply through the operating of any gift of the Holy Spirit; in Ephesians chapter four . . . after Paul talks about Jesus giving gifts to us, we have >

"but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head---Christ---" (in Ephesians 4:15)

So, by speaking in His love, we minister "all things" of Jesus.

His gifts minister His own grace which is the action of His own love in us >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

Grace of God's love effects our character and cures our nature so we become more and more "as He is" "in this world."

And the grace of this love is ministered by every gift of the Holy Spirit. Also, by the way, in 1 Corinthians 7, I think Paul is saying that holy matrimony and celibacy are gifts of God's love > 1 Corinthians 7:7 > therefore, these gifts minister God's own grace, also, helping us to grow in love and "all things" of God's love.

Grace in us is actually the Holy Spirit acting in us. And the Holy Spirit has all abilities. As we exercise in the Holy Spirit who operates our gifts, we get stronger in the Holy Spirit and all His ability, and not limited to only the ability of the gift which He has us operating int. We grow in the grace ministered by each gift, we grow in all capabilities of God in His love. But this comes with growth of grace, while a gift is already "good" and "perfect" (James 1:17)

So, as new believers we start with one or some gifts which are already perfect; but our gifts minister grace of love which has "all things" which we grow in, getting more and more able in all the abilities of God's love, by growing in God's own love

 

[tturt]

"If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret." I Cor 14:27

posted: Which is why Paul said if there be none to interpet, then the messenger should be quiet,

That's what that verse means to me, too. It's so the believer speaking in tongues for interpretation won't just keep giving the message in tongues more than 3 times. It doesn't mean that should only be 2-3 interpretations during 1 worship service. Now why wouldn't there be an interpretation?

Sometimes there's a believer who isn't sure and won't speak out. All the manifestations of the spiritual gifts have a training period. Afterall, the disciples were with Yeshua for years.

Though I have seen when an interpretation was off. The congregation just continued to worship and within a few seconds the actual interpretation came. This was at a church with almost 1,000 in attendance and most were not regular members of that specific church. Also, I've seen the speaker say "That believer has the interpretation" while pointing to a believer that they might or might not know (referring to Spirit led information).

As already noted, a message in tongues is clearly distinctive during a service. So what are your thoughts on why wouldn't there be an interpretation? Also, puzzled by churches who upfront say Sister or Brother X, is our interpreter tonight.

 

[Biblicist]

As already noted, a message in tongues is clearly distinctive during a service. So what are your thoughts on why wouldn't there be an interpretation? Also, puzzled by churches who upfront say Sister or Brother X, is our interpreter tonight.

That's a very interesting concept which I don't think that I have come across before. It does present the risk that a senior minister might be tempted to select a few 'safe bets' who he knows will be inclined to only say what he would deem to be safe to his 'ministry', though this would probably have more relevance to prophecy than with tongues.

As for interpretations/articulations not being provided after a tongue, as some members can be overly vocal during their times of corporate praise where they are singing in the Spirit (tongues), then it can be easy for a loud personal word of praise to the Father to go uninterpreted; this is undoubtedly Paul's main concern where he forbade the practice of allowing any audible tongue to remain uninterpreted.

 

[Biblicist]

Double post (Cloudfare was probably the culprit - again).

 

[tturt]

There's also the possibility that Yahweh gave that information in advance of the service beginning.

Also, since tongues are a a sign TO unbelievers OF believers (I Cor 14:22 and Mark 16:17), I wonder why there is an emphasis on no tongues in some churches (in that denominations that believe in the manifestations of the gifts).

 

[Biblicist]

There's also the possibility that Yahweh gave that information in advance of the service beginning.

Could it be possible that someone was given a prophecy about the same time someone chose to give a word in tongues, where the person with the word of prophecy mistakenly presumed that their word was intended to complement someone elses tongue; or maybe the person who had the prophecy decided to precede it with a tongue where they confused the prophecy as an interpretation?

If this type of thing an occur, where someone mistakenly deems their prophecy to be an interpretation of a tongue; even though it would not negate the original prophecy, it still would make it hard for those who recognise that the Holy Spirit does not speak to man (but to God) through tongues, to be able to take the original word seriously.

Also, since tongues are a a sign TO unbelievers OF believers (I Cor 14:22 and Mark 16:17), I wonder why there is an emphasis on no tongues in some churches (in that denominations that believe in the manifestations of the gifts).

The problem with 1Cor 14:22 is that Paul is saying that uninterpreted tongues (and not tongues on their own), that they will have a negative impact on both the unsaved and cessationist where it becomes a negative sign of judgment in that it will in most cases harden them to the Gospel.

Those churches (both Continuist and cessationist) who forbid the uninterpreted application of tongues within their congregational meetings are being wise in doing so; they both realise that uninterpreted congregational tongues will only serve as a negative sign where as Paul says, "they will say that you are mad".