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stevenfrancis
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Can't say I'm really that thrilled about the title of the video, as I believe Jesus IS God, and is not just venerated but worshiped as consubstantial with God the Father. So I watched the video with some degree of trepidation. I found the video to be quite supportive of Christ's divinity, and in fact to make the very points that I was afraid it would be trying to establish an argument against, based on the title. Very interesting presentation. I guess it's true what they say. You can't judge a book by it's cover. ;-)
May God bless,
Steve
May God bless,
Steve
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- Aug 21, 2003
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The question is wrong! Jesus is not "a god" Jesus is God, from all eternity. Here is the Targum Isaiah written about 200 years BC.
Isaiah 9:6 The prophet said to the house of David, For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given, and He has taken a law upon Himself to keep it. His name is called from eternity, Wonderful, The Mighty God, who liveth to eternity, Wonderful, The Messiah, whose peace shall be great upon us in His days.
7. The greatness of those who do the law shall be magnified, and those, that preserve peace. There shall be no end to the throne of David, and of his kingdom, to establish it and to build it in judgment and in righteousness from henceforth, even for ever. By the Word of the Lord of hosts this shall be done.
The Chaldee Paraprase The Prophet Isaiah, Translated By Rev. C. W. H. Pauli, London Society's House, 1871
7. The greatness of those who do the law shall be magnified, and those, that preserve peace. There shall be no end to the throne of David, and of his kingdom, to establish it and to build it in judgment and in righteousness from henceforth, even for ever. By the Word of the Lord of hosts this shall be done.
The Chaldee Paraprase The Prophet Isaiah, Translated By Rev. C. W. H. Pauli, London Society's House, 1871
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All Souls
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I thought I'd provide the unorthodox forum with someone substantial to interact with; btw, Hurtado's work is well worth checking out, he is a leading advocate of an early high Christology.
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And I provided an irrefutable source, the pe-Christian Targum Isaiah, which says, " His name is called from eternity, Wonderful, The Mighty God, who liveth to eternity, Wonderful, The Messiah," Seems like the Jews were expecting a messiah who is God.
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Could someone post a quick summation please?
Due to issues with my computer, I'm having to access everything in "safe mode"; my system disengages the audio drivers in this mode, and so I can't hear anything.
Due to issues with my computer, I'm having to access everything in "safe mode"; my system disengages the audio drivers in this mode, and so I can't hear anything.
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All Souls
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Having read some work by Bruce D. Chilton, it may not be quite so simple...nevermind!
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Who is Bruce Chilton and why would he have anything to do with my quote from the Targum Isaiah?
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Do you have an Aramaic text for this? I'm intrigued
No but the English translations of the Pentateuch, psalms, Isaiah and Targumim in the Megillot can be D/L at this link. Targumic Texts | NTCS IOTS
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Ironhold - you deserve a summation - sorry for yer pewter audio issues -- I will listen to the spiel and try to summarize it.
AllSouls -- it is POSSIBLE that the Lamsa Bible MIGHT have an Aramaic version of that Isaiah text - Lamsa Bible being based on Peshitto or Peshitta text -- Lamsa claims EVERYTHING was first done in Aramaic - I mean everything.
Hold on Ironhold - I'm a comin'...
AllSouls -- it is POSSIBLE that the Lamsa Bible MIGHT have an Aramaic version of that Isaiah text - Lamsa Bible being based on Peshitto or Peshitta text -- Lamsa claims EVERYTHING was first done in Aramaic - I mean everything.
Hold on Ironhold - I'm a comin'...
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OK - Ironhold - the dude (Hurtado) addresses "what are the earliest notions of jesus as a god?" or "as God"
I am not quibbling these differences here...
he sees them as VERY EARLY - that is the one sentence SUMMATION of his video
he says earliest references to Jesus AS GOD go back to Paul's letters - which this dude sees in some cases to be WITHIN 20 YEARS of Jesus' death - well okay thessalonians early 50's - that's not a stretch to say within 20 years
"happenned so early" - he thinks veneration of Jesus - and liturgical use of JESUS' NAME is being used very early in an unprecedented way - iow, no such thing as "baptism in moses name" etc
in what form was the early veneration of Jesus?
Baptism in the name of Jesus had no real precedent - a "sacred meal" as in "Essene's Teacher of righteousness" does not compare with veneration of Jesus; where Jesus actually presides at the meal -- not paralelled in Jewish piety of the time in any sect
key impact of veneration of Jesus - pattern of devotion/veneration of Jesus - even in healing rites and hymns - was very early on
visions of Christ exalted in heaven may be influential as an impetus towards venerating Jesus AS GOD - but this dude Hurtado says this happenned VERY EARLY ON
this guy quotes a couple of scholars on Christology that I never heard of - who says this kind of veneration of Jesus is NOT seen in letters of Paul -- but the dude in the video disagrees with the 2 scholars he referenced; disagrees with these two who says writings of John/gospel of John -- very LATE -- first stress a veneration of Jesus - the 2 guys he referenced claim
only til Gospel of John did NT say "Jesus is God" they say Pauline letters did NOT
(have listened to this twice will go back to catch the 2's names - okay - morris cayce - Jimmy Dunn? ) still never heard of 'em
these 2 says "Jesus as God" idea developed over several decades - no earlier than gospel of John
but Hurtado in the video says No - Paul's letters show this veneration as God way early
was this a VIOLATION of Jewish Monotheism to call Jesus God? the 2 say a devout Jew like Paul would not have done this violation/breach of monotheism
he - Hurtdao - (dude in video) said no - jesus seen as just an aspect of the one God, no breach of monotheism
people felt god required this veneration of jesus - that it was "the will of God" to see Jesus AS God
it's a crude summary, Ironhold - prolly much plagiarism in trying to summarize it, sorry, let them take me back to Pauline times and sue me
hope you git yer sound fixed
Bottom Line -- many people say this "Jesus is God idea" developed way late - Hurtado the dude in video -- says no; it's VERY EARLY established
I am not quibbling these differences here...
he sees them as VERY EARLY - that is the one sentence SUMMATION of his video
he says earliest references to Jesus AS GOD go back to Paul's letters - which this dude sees in some cases to be WITHIN 20 YEARS of Jesus' death - well okay thessalonians early 50's - that's not a stretch to say within 20 years
"happenned so early" - he thinks veneration of Jesus - and liturgical use of JESUS' NAME is being used very early in an unprecedented way - iow, no such thing as "baptism in moses name" etc
in what form was the early veneration of Jesus?
Baptism in the name of Jesus had no real precedent - a "sacred meal" as in "Essene's Teacher of righteousness" does not compare with veneration of Jesus; where Jesus actually presides at the meal -- not paralelled in Jewish piety of the time in any sect
key impact of veneration of Jesus - pattern of devotion/veneration of Jesus - even in healing rites and hymns - was very early on
visions of Christ exalted in heaven may be influential as an impetus towards venerating Jesus AS GOD - but this dude Hurtado says this happenned VERY EARLY ON
this guy quotes a couple of scholars on Christology that I never heard of - who says this kind of veneration of Jesus is NOT seen in letters of Paul -- but the dude in the video disagrees with the 2 scholars he referenced; disagrees with these two who says writings of John/gospel of John -- very LATE -- first stress a veneration of Jesus - the 2 guys he referenced claim
only til Gospel of John did NT say "Jesus is God" they say Pauline letters did NOT
(have listened to this twice will go back to catch the 2's names - okay - morris cayce - Jimmy Dunn? ) still never heard of 'em
these 2 says "Jesus as God" idea developed over several decades - no earlier than gospel of John
but Hurtado in the video says No - Paul's letters show this veneration as God way early
was this a VIOLATION of Jewish Monotheism to call Jesus God? the 2 say a devout Jew like Paul would not have done this violation/breach of monotheism
he - Hurtdao - (dude in video) said no - jesus seen as just an aspect of the one God, no breach of monotheism
people felt god required this veneration of jesus - that it was "the will of God" to see Jesus AS God
it's a crude summary, Ironhold - prolly much plagiarism in trying to summarize it, sorry, let them take me back to Pauline times and sue me
hope you git yer sound fixed
Bottom Line -- many people say this "Jesus is God idea" developed way late - Hurtado the dude in video -- says no; it's VERY EARLY established
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All Souls
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Bruce D. Chilton is a leading expert on the Isaiah Targum! He discusses dating and theology of the Targum, including Isa. 9 here. A more detailed explanation is here.
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Phantasman
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John knew.
John 17
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Sounds like we are to know both to me.
Then in 1 John he says:
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true (Father), and we are in him that is true (Father), even in his Son Jesus Christ(being one). This is the true God, and eternal life.
From the first verse, the only true God is the Father, IMO.
John 17
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Sounds like we are to know both to me.
Then in 1 John he says:
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true (Father), and we are in him that is true (Father), even in his Son Jesus Christ(being one). This is the true God, and eternal life.
From the first verse, the only true God is the Father, IMO.
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Gareth
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If Scripture is interpreted correctly one will come to the conclusion that there is one God, the Father, and that he has a firstborn Son. The two of them have been around for a very long time. The Father is age-less, the Son was created. When telling people about God, Jesus never said he was God. Instead he directed everyone to praise God. Jesus was the vehicle that would help people who wanted to, to be reconciled back to God. John 17:3 is a good example of this.
Furthermore, to pay back what Adam lost, the exchange of one perfect life for another had to be made, that is Jesus had to die. Since God the Father is ageless and immortal someone else had to do this. Someone who, although existing in God's form as a spirit could die. This one was of course Jesus as he became known on earth. That is why Philippines 2:5-11 shows us that Jesus cannot be God because when he came back to heaven the Father gave Jesus if you like, a promotion. Jesus was given something, he didn't have it before he came to earth but on his return. If Jesus is God then that Scripture would be null and void. Further the first few verses of the first chapter of Hebrews again shows we are talking about two distinct beings, not one.
Furthermore, to pay back what Adam lost, the exchange of one perfect life for another had to be made, that is Jesus had to die. Since God the Father is ageless and immortal someone else had to do this. Someone who, although existing in God's form as a spirit could die. This one was of course Jesus as he became known on earth. That is why Philippines 2:5-11 shows us that Jesus cannot be God because when he came back to heaven the Father gave Jesus if you like, a promotion. Jesus was given something, he didn't have it before he came to earth but on his return. If Jesus is God then that Scripture would be null and void. Further the first few verses of the first chapter of Hebrews again shows we are talking about two distinct beings, not one.
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RevelationTestament
Our God is a consuming fire.
Jesus did not become El Elyon - the Most High El. He did however, become the Son of El Elyon and became YHWH Elohim with Him. The Bible teaches that He inherited a name better than the angels, and became the author of our salvation. Hebrews 5. This happened when the Father told Him, "thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee," and He became the Son to the Father in the Word.
Peace
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ChetSinger
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Hello.
I suggest you step beyond Watchtower sources to learn other points of view regarding the origins of Christianity.
For example, here's a paper by Daniel Boyarin that discusses the Jewish underpinnings of orthodox Christian theology. The concept of a binitarian Godhead was widespread among Jews of Jesus' day. Contrary to Watchtower teachings, Christians didn't invent it.
The Gospel of the Memra: Jewish Binitarianism and the Prologue to John: http://nes.berkeley.edu/Web_Boyarin/BoyarinArticles/108%20Gospel%20of%20the%20Memra%20(2001).pdf
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RevelationTestament
Our God is a consuming fire.
The Son was begotten - not created. There is nothing in the scriptures to support that He was created or did not exist prior to being begotten as the Son. That is a conclusion as you say, which is not supported by the scriptures themselves. Indeed the scriptures indicate he was grown and conscious when the Father said to Him, "thou art my Son, this day I have begotten thee." He was begotten in the gospel by the word of the oath of His Father.
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