How Christians should respond to new space images

[BobRyan]

from: Old-Earth (Progressive) Creationism: History and Beliefs - Article - BioLogos
"The literal creation week and the instantaneous creation were the two major alternatives for most of Christian history, "

Only to be upended by this revision of history that amounts to giving the credit for all the young earth creation belief in all of time -- to ... wait for it... "Ellen White" ???

Yes I am SDA and yes I do believe Ellen White was a real Bible prophet - but even I would not make such a wild non-historic claim about the origin of acceptance of the young earth creation doctrine to "those who read and accept what Ellen White wrote". How in the world does such an idea even come about?

myst33 said:
Most Christians world wide really do not care about Young Earth Creationism that originated in the USA in the Seventh Day Adventist church, from the visions of Ellen G. White.

The video appears to debunk your claim.

At 16:29 the video introduces an author of a number of books on Geology "George McReady Price". The video says "He wrote several papers and books arguing that the geological column was a result of Noah's flood" ( an observation that comes as no surprise to Christians today - familiar with Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 20:11). The video claims that the "arguments" that creationists use today - date back to Price when it comes to geology and what he called "flood geology". The video does not claim that anyone is/was claiming that they got their ideas from Ellen White. (Sadly for the wild claim in your post).

Price (as do many Christians today) noted that the so-called geological-column was based on circular reasoning where fossils date the rocks and rocks date the fossils. (A complaint that many observers make about the whole thing).

At 17:30 in the video Price is said to have quoted Ex 20:11 (which is a direct quote of Gen 2:1-3) for the 7 day week of creation being the same as the 7 day week at Sinai. And scripture of course is something for which at least some Christians have a I value. Instead of claiming Price was appealing to Ellen White - your own video claims he was affirming Ex 20:11. (I am guessing you do not consider Ellen White to be the author of Ex 20:11 or Gen 2:1-3).

At 18:20 the video correctly states that Price did not claim the entire universe is only 6000 years old --- he only claims that life on Earth is no more than 6000 years old.

At 20:09 the video says that after not getting much popular story-telling support behind Price's findings about the flood - Dr. Henry Morris (a scientist with a Ph.D in hydraulic engineering) published a book for literal 7 day creationism. This is how the whole thing gained more popular acceptance and the video admits Morris was definitely not a follower of Ellen White (as if anyone had been using that claim for Ex 20:11 or Gen 2:1-3 regarding the literal week -- in the first place for creationism). 1961 the book 'the Genesis Flood" by Morris and Whitcomb was published and became very popular.

At 21:53 about 200,000 copies of that book were sold and so Morris and Whitcomb became 'celebrities' - neither of which followed Ellen White and neither of which were SDA - sadly for the wild claims made in the post above. At 22:20 we see a lot of Creationist scientific groups forming due to support from Dr. Morris. At 22:45 the wild claim was made that in the 1920 there were only a TINY number of folks in the "anti-evolutionist community" and they were almost all SDA. (Note that Ellen White was not still alive in 1920). This is shocking since a lot of the evangelical churches today that reject blind faith evolutionism today - were also opposed to it in the 1920's.


The video that you posted keeps saying that "SOME believed that the Earth was older than 10,000 years old" when referencing ancient groups. But the problem with "SOME" or "A FEW exceptions" etc - is that is far from saying "nobody believed the actual text stating that it is a literal 7 day creation week on Ex 20:11 and in Gen 2:1-3" --

The video even admits that most people accept that this is what everyone believed (except for SOME) about the 7 day creation week of Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 20:11

 

[BobRyan]

Just this morning, on MSN, I saw an article that was about how Christians should feel about new images of space, such as those from the James Webb telescope. The article includes an interview with a woman scientist who apparently is also a Christian. She seems to believe in the Big Bang and old ages of the universe. A brief reference is made in the article about some pastors 'forcing their congregations to accept young universe notions.' While I respectfully disagree with this lady's loyalty to standard cosmology, she at least referred to the universe and its wonders as God's creation. I see no reason for anyone to have to maintain loyalty to the Big Bang and old universe assertions of the mainstream scientific community. I have written a treatise called "Big Bang Busted." It is available on my website, COSMINISTRY - Cosmos Ministry

If you go to this website, please do not click on the "discussion" link because I am not maintaining this website and the discussion forum link is now inoperable. But please do go to the article entitled "Big Bang Busted." This website is best viewed on a desktop PC or laptop, not on a mobile device.

To those Christians who want to reconcile the assertions of the mainstream scientific community about origins and natural history with the Bible, I say the two views are distinctly different and cannot be matched up. To these Christians, I say, what? Did God lack the power to create the cosmos in six days, about 6,000 years ago, or did He choose NOT to do so? The Bible, if you don't want to play debilitating interpretation games with it, straightforwardly asserts that the infinite God has the power to have created the universe in six, calendar days. And He used that power, to His glory.

Here is a link to the MSN article I read this morning:

How should Christians feel about the new images of outer space?

Interesting - thanks for posting that.

 

[BobRyan]

Watch the video, please, to understand that the issue is a bit more complicated.

not true -- the video shows 'some ancient exceptions' to the rule of just accepting the literal 7 day creation week in Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:1-3

Bishop Usher's date (User lived his life in the late 16th and early 17th century) for the Earth shows that there was a general acceptance of the literal 7 day creation week - before Seventh-day Adventists even existed.

 

[trophy33]

not true -- the video shows 'some ancient exceptions' to the rule of just accepting the literal 7 day creation week in Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:1-3

Bishop Usher's date (User lived his life in the late 16th and early 17th century) for the Earth shows that there was a general acceptance of the literal 7 day creation week - before Seventh-day Adventists even existed.

Usher's date has never been any official church dating of the world and the YEC has never been any standard Christian theology.

 

[trophy33]

You can't be serious. A lot of Evangelical Christians still accept the Bible account of a 7 day creation week -- and a great many more Christian denominations accepted it before the rise of evolutionism in the early 1800's.

I am serious, you must just leave your personal theological bubble.

Catholics are not YEC - thats one billion of Christians right there.
Most protestant churches worldwide are not YEC.
Most Orthodox Christians in Eastern European countries, as far as I know, are not YEC.

This alone will create a comfortable majority of Christians on the planet. You must understand that your American environment is not a representation of the whole.

(American) SDA teachings, books, websites and other materials, logically, got into English speaking evangelical churches the easiest. Not so easily into Italian, German, French or Serbian churches.

 

[BobRyan]

(American) SDA teachings, books, websites and other materials, logically, got into English speaking evangelical churches the easiest. Not so easily into Italian, German, French or Serbian churches.

Almost 80% of the SDA denomination is outside the U.S. and grows the fastest in those areas. Europe and Australia are the ones that advance the slowest for SDAs.

 

[BobRyan]

Usher's date has never been any official church dating

that is funny "official dating" for the world.

Put the question a different way and you get a very different answer. "How many denominations affirm a literal creation week and the earth being only about 6000 to 10000 years old".

As we all know that is a lot more signing on to it.

 

[BobRyan]

I am serious, you must just leave your personal theological bubble.

Catholics are not YEC

But they claim they allow for it and do not require all catholics to "Believe in" blind faith evolutionism.

- thats one billion of Christians right there.

Only true if blind faith evolutionism were a required belief. Look at the Catholic teaching on the Sabbath commandment "The third commandment" as they call it. What does it say in their catechism. hint: not "billions of years"

 

[trophy33]

that is funny "official dating" for the world.

Put the question a different way and you get a very different answer. "How many denominations affirm a literal creation week and the earth being only about 6000 to 10000 years old".

As we all know that is a lot more signing on to it.

There are as many denominations as American preachers (or "prophets") willing to make their own church. You should not count the number of (American) micro denominations, you should count their members and compare them to the worldwide Christian population.

Edit: English

 

[BobRyan]

There are as many denominations as American preachers

not true - obviously

 

[coffee4u]

Is that Christ died for our sins, to bring us to God.

Really, that's what we do "need" to know.

You don't even have to have a bible or an Old Testament to be saved. You don't even have to know who Peter was.....

....you don't even have to know about Moses....

You have to know that Christ Jesus died for you!

So, if someone mistakenly believes wrong doctrine W.2 about topic X -- it will not matter what they think about question X at all -- not even a micro bit -- if they believe in Christ Jesus and follow Him, doing as He taught us we must do.

This is so important. We understand this: no one has to belong to church denomination Z.1 in order to be saved.

Nor must anyone believe in Old Testament interpretation doctrine Y.3 to be saved.

But we Must believe on Jesus Christ, risen from the dead. and admit we are sinners who rely on Him for salvation from our sins, believing on Him in faith.

Acts 16:30 - The Conversion of the Jailer

Then he brought them out and asked, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

biblehub.com

Acts 16:31 - The Conversion of the Jailer

They replied, Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.

biblehub.com

You took part of a sentence, out of context, and then claim I said things I never said. Good one mate. What else to you invent?

 

[coffee4u]

You can't be serious. A lot of Evangelical Christians still accept the Bible account of a 7 day creation week.

Yes, thank you Rob. I am from an evangelical Church here in Australia and we teach 7 day creation. In fact one of our members knows Ken Ham well, from before he moved to the US. He was originally from my state.

 

[Halbhh]

I agree with much of this.
Yet there are still somethings which are true and somethings which are false and sometimes two things can both be true.

Its very possible that six days passed on earth and not elsewhere. It is an interesting thing to ponder but not something we can truly know.
What we do need to know from our perspective is that 6 days had passed where God created and that Adam was his special creation in his image.
That the seventh day was the sabbath day of rest.
That Adam and Eve were placed into a perfect garden and Adam's sin caused the fall.
That sin caused death and corruption of the world.
This is what God wants us to know. That we fell into sin and that he has a way of salvation for us. That these events literally happened the way they are described. If God breathed out stars while being out of time and they are somehow both young and old is of no importance. What he wnated us to know is that he made them on day 4 for mankind to have a way to judge times, navigate and to bring light.

If the stars were made on day 4 but are also old is not something we need to know because the truth of it would be far beyond our understanding.
That the stars look old to man who searches not for God but to uplift himself as being wise, is a great deception to those who do not trust God's word. Here is the proof says man that God does not exist or if he does he is a tyrant keeping knowledge from us. Ah yes I wonder why? (that is rhetorical) It is a great deception for those standing on the sand.

It is not a deception for anyone who reads Gods word as it is written and trusts him. We know that no matter how it may look that the stars were created on day 4.
Mans uplifting and trust in himself, in his own wisdom is the type of knowledge that causes men to lose faith in God or to change God into a vision of what and who they think God he should be. It is this that creates atheists. They assume incorrectly that man has the answers and that God's word really means something else. God's word is then relegated to being spiritual truth or even a fairy tale not actual truth. Once a person questions one area as truth and 'spiritulizes it away' it is easy to move onto others areas right up to questioning the cross and Jesus. Dangerous ground.

Evolution is a teaching of Satan I know that. Satan is the father of lies and anything that is the opposite of scripture is from him. Creation -evolution.
Man&woman - a hundred genders
Marriage - sexual freedom.
For every point God makes the world will have a counterfeit point.

(I have carefully read every sentence you wrote here, just so you know!)

You should love this, it's so wonderful --> We hear in our New Covenant (the New Testament) that we are saved by faith in Christ. With real faith -- faith in Christ that is real, believing on Him, so that we listen to Him and follow Him.

That's God's Amazing Grace.

And this wonderful saving faith we read in scripture comes from hearing the Word about Christ -- Romans 10:17 -- and this is how people come to faith in Christ -- the only thing that saves.

Romans 10:17 - The Word Brings Salvation

Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

biblehub.com

So, you can see, nothing else saves -- no other ideas/knowledge/beliefs save (you don't have to learn various doctrines about other stuff like in the wonderful and good Old Testament which we love and read and learn from....).

Only hearing about Jesus Christ can save -- the actual Gospel message, in the New Testament -- which is wonderfully clear, simple and powerful to save.

And that for everyone that does believe in Christ and listen to Him and follow Him in faith, then no power can possibly take them away from Him (so you don't have to worry about what is right or wrong about 'evolution' or any of other 35 theories...!)

27 "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all c ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” -- Christ the Lord, John 10

So, you can get anything right or wrong in the Old Testament, but it won't help you nor destroy you.....

Ralph doesn't have to learn ideas X.3.4 or Y.1.1 about Old Testament things, to be saved, nor will those help him be saved.

God is so much better, more good than requiring such just-lucky-right membership in just the right church teaching just the right theories about creation (which way God created all that exists, whether method A or B or C...) -- none of those is required to be saved.

 

[BobRyan]

So, you can see, nothing else saves -- no other ideas/knowledge/beliefs save (you don't have to learn various doctrines about other stuff like in the wonderful and good Old Testament which we love and read and learn from....).

Jesus did not teach that.

IN Luke 24 Jesus HIMSELF is walking with two disciples on His resurrection day and He deliberately does NOT reveal it to them. He gets them to focus ALONE on the OT scriptures to get their doctrine on the subject of the Messiah.

​

25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.​

​

44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things that are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,​

Jesus' "OT scriptures first" approach is not what some popular preachers use today - but it is Jesus' method.

"If they do not listen to MOSES neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" Luke 16.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, thank you Rob. I am from an evangelical Church here in Australia and we teach 7 day creation. In fact one of our members knows Ken Ham well, from before he moved to the US. He was originally from my state.

Amen. This is not just a Bible doctrine that Seventh-day Adventists affirm. A great many Bible believing groups affirm scripture when it comes to the obvious details of the 7 day creation week stated in scripture in Gen 2:1-3 and Ex 20:11

 

[Halbhh]

Jesus did not teach that.

IN Luke 24 Jesus HIMSELF is walking with two disciples on His resurrection day and He deliberately does NOT reveal it to them. He gets them to focus ALONE on the OT scriptures to get their doctrine on the subject of the Messiah.

​

25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.​

​

44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things that are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,​

Jesus' "OT scriptures first" approach is not what some popular preachers use today - but it is Jesus' method.

"If they do not listen to MOSES neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" Luke 16.

If you look more carefully, read what's written with care to what it says, I think it should be clear I've said nothing that even slightly suggests that the Old Testament isn't from God.

So, I think you haven't read carefully above.

But, just in case you did...(I hope you didn't yet!) -- then are you suggesting/implying that the New Testament epistle to the Romans isn't from God!? That would be very concerning, if you think that.

(For reference, just to be sure you know where I'm coming from: I believe every bit of the Old and New Testaments, having read all of both many times each fully through. So, I accept 100% of the Old Testament (even Ecclesiastes), but I also accept 100% of the New Testament... So, that means I believe the words in Romans 10:17 see....)

 

[Halbhh]

Jesus did not teach that.

IN Luke 24 Jesus HIMSELF is walking with two disciples on His resurrection day and He deliberately does NOT reveal it to them. He gets them to focus ALONE on the OT scriptures to get their doctrine on the subject of the Messiah.

​

25 And then He said to them, “You foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to come into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the Prophets, He explained to them the things written about Himself in all the Scriptures.​

​

44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all the things that are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,​

Jesus' "OT scriptures first" approach is not what some popular preachers use today - but it is Jesus' method.

"If they do not listen to MOSES neither will they listen though one rises from the dead" Luke 16.

Just to be sure there's no confusion at all about Romans 10:17, read it in multiple translations:

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

New International Version
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

New Living Translation
So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ.

English Standard Version
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

New American Standard Bible
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Amplified Bible
So faith comes from hearing [what is told], and what is heard comes by the [preaching of the] message concerning Christ.

====
And commentaries will confirm even when using an older translation:
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(17) So then faith cometh.--Inference from the prophecy just quoted. Before men can believe, there must be something for them to believe. That something is the word of God, which we preach and they hear. It must be remembered that the word for "report" in Romans 10:16, and for "hearing" in Romans 10:17, is the same, but with a slight difference of meaning. In the first place, both the act of hearer and preacher are involved; in the second place, only the act of the hearer.
By the word of God.--We should read here, without doubt, "by the word of Christ"--i.e., by the gospel first delivered by Christ and propagated by His ministers.

Romans 10:17 - The Word Brings Salvation

Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

biblehub.com

Literally, the only way to saving faith is through hearing the gospel message that Jesus Christ has come to save us from our sins!

No other belief will do, or can save.

More here in post #133 (link): How Christians should respond to new space images

 

[Halbhh]

What did Jesus say for us to teach?

18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 28 - New International Version

Jesus Has Risen - After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was...

www.biblegateway.com

What are His commands which He here explicitly commands us to teach to others?

You will find them easily if you read/listen to His teachings to us in the gospels, such as this one:

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

John 13:34 - Love One Another

A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you also must love one another.

biblehub.com

@BobRyan --- This is wonderful isn't it? It's so much easier and better to teach to people, and He directly and explicitly commands us to teach precisely these commands of His in the gospels: the literal commands, such as "...forgive your brother or sister from your heart", and "love one another". So, what you are commanded to teach to others is a wonderful good message that is very easy to teach. We need only be humble and loving and obey Him on this.

 

[coffee4u]

(I have carefully read every sentence you wrote here, just so you know!)

You should love this, it's so wonderful --> We hear in our New Covenant (the New Testament) that we are saved by faith in Christ. With real faith -- faith in Christ that is real, believing on Him, so that we listen to Him and follow Him.

That's God's Amazing Grace.

And this wonderful saving faith we read in scripture comes from hearing the Word about Christ -- Romans 10:17 -- and this is how people come to faith in Christ -- the only thing that saves.

Romans 10:17 - The Word Brings Salvation

Consequently, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

biblehub.com

So, you can see, nothing else saves -- no other ideas/knowledge/beliefs save (you don't have to learn various doctrines about other stuff like in the wonderful and good Old Testament which we love and read and learn from....).

Only hearing about Jesus Christ can save -- the actual Gospel message, in the New Testament -- which is wonderfully clear, simple and powerful to save.

And that for everyone that does believe in Christ and listen to Him and follow Him in faith, then no power can possibly take them away from Him (so you don't have to worry about what is right or wrong about 'evolution' or any of other 35 theories...!)

27 "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all c ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.” -- Christ the Lord, John 10

So, you can get anything right or wrong in the Old Testament, but it won't help you nor destroy you.....

Ralph doesn't have to learn ideas X.3.4 or Y.1.1 about Old Testament things, to be saved, nor will those help him be saved.

God is so much better, more good than requiring such just-lucky-right membership in just the right church teaching just the right theories about creation (which way God created all that exists, whether method A or B or C...) -- none of those is required to be saved.

Yes I agree, I just can't figure out why you are trying to argue with me.

This board is on creation vs theistic evolution which is what I am talking about, you however seem hung up on what I believe about salvation. I have not talked about what we need for salvation, okay, got it?

Since I haven't it seems you have assumed what I believe on that topic and have taken it upon yourself to somehow correct me. I guess you are the sort of person who tells someone they are making pastry wrong while they explain how they make pancakes!

 

[coffee4u]

Literally, the only way to saving faith is through hearing the gospel message that Jesus Christ has come to save us from our sins!

Halbhh you are preaching to the choir and taking this thread off course. If we can please get back on track.

If you are trying to say Jesus said not to talk about creation then you are wrong, creation shows us how sin and death came to be, its a vital component of the gospel.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

One man? Sin? death? That would be Adam-back to Genesis.
You can't divorce Genesis from the rest of the Bible, its not possible.