Homosexuality......are people born that way? (moved from Christian Advice)

[visionary]

Even if it was discovered that all this hormone additives in the food chain has caused genetic changes in the embryos, even if it is discovered that it is a hormone imbalance from birth, even if it is scientifically proved to be the genetic make-up, it doesn't change what God has ordained to be right and normal.

 

[BlackJack77]

Dear Starlight,

Serial murders, rapes, child inappropriate content and child molestation "happens" too.

Just because it "happens" doesn't mean that it a) comes from God or that b) God doesn't condemn it.

Scripture reveals that God does condemn it. And God is no longer winking at sin, but during this time of grace is calling all people everywhere to REPENT and be reconciled to Him and be healed, regenerated and restored by the shed blood of His holy lamb, Jesus Christ.


Contending for the faith,
Jack

Since romantic love also happens in homosexual relationships, it shows that it's made for these kind of relationships as well.

 

[Poverello78]

Problem is, that's an opinion, and there is fact out there on the issue. This would be akin to saying 'It is my opinion that the sum of 3 and 5 is an odd number.' There's no opinion on the matter. There's a fact.

And the fact is, studies have been done that have shown a genetic inclination toward homosexuality. Is it a cast-iron sort of thing? Nope. Is there an environmental input? Yes. But are some people 'born that way'? It appears so. Some people will be homosexual, and there's nothing they can do to change that.

The American Psychological Association, who has been one of the most adamant proponents of homosexual genetics, has recently altered their own conclusions regarding what you've just said:

"There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation."

This statement was a retraction of what it had previously said: "There is considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person's sexuality."

The latter statement was removed and replaced by the former and can be found on the APA website here, under the subtopic "What causes a person to have a specific sexual orientation?"

At this point, it seems that the concept you're promoting is backed only by propaganda. However, I'm very willing to see what evidence you have. I have no agenda here.

 

[Tissue]

Scripture reveals that God does condemn it. And God is no longer winking at sin, but during this time of grace is calling all people everywhere to REPENT and be reconciled to Him and be healed, regenerated and restored by the shed blood of His holy lamb, Jesus Christ.

Scripture reveals that God condemned it to a particular culture. Scripture reveals that God that a town was punished for violent sexuality. Scripture reveals that sin is fundamentally divisive. Sin is not about the act; sin is about a heart-set (as opposed to mind-set) that is fundamentally opposed to peace and love.

Every sin is destructive and divisive. Homosexual love (the open, lovely sort of a committed relationship) is not any more destructive and divisive than heterosexual love.

To many of us, our understanding of the nature of sin leads us to wonder about the actual nature of Scripture's relation to homosexuality. Our conclusion that homosexuality is consistent with Christianity should not be seen to imply that we do not respect Scripture. On the contrary, we value Scripture. But we do not think it is saying that homosexuals are bad.

 

[*Starlight*]

Even if it was discovered that all this hormone additives in the food chain has caused genetic changes in the embryos, even if it is discovered that it is a hormone imbalance from birth, even if it is scientifically proved to be the genetic make-up, it doesn't change what God has ordained to be right and normal.

It shows what God has ordained to be right and normal.

Dear Starlight,

Serial murders, rapes, child inappropriate content and child molestation "happens" too.

Just because it "happens" doesn't mean that it a) comes from God or that b) God doesn't condemn it.

Scripture reveals that God does condemn it. And God is no longer winking at sin, but during this time of grace is calling all people everywhere to REPENT and be reconciled to Him and be healed, regenerated and restored by the shed blood of His holy lamb, Jesus Christ.


Contending for the faith,
Jack

Many things happen. Some things that happen cause harm, and these things are wrong, and other things that happen don't harm anyone, which shows that they are ok. In the case of homosexuality, it doesn't harm anyone, and it can't be changed, so it has to be accepted.

 

[Tissue]

At this point, it seems that the concept you're promoting is backed only by propaganda. However, I'm very willing to see what evidence you have. I have no agenda here.

My opinion and stance is based upon some studies I read through while in an introductory Psychology class, where identical twins (that is, siblings that share almost identical DNA) had a relatively high chance of both holding a homosexual or bisexual preference as compared to fraternal twins, and cousins, and non-twin siblings, etc. (I don't remember the name of the particular study, nor do I care to go digging through academic journal searches for the study; if I come across the name in my notes, I will post it here) Of course, the whole matter is highly complex; environmental conditions affect the switching of genes throughout an individual's development. Nevertheless, I do not think, on this basis, it oversteps any boundaries to declare that genetics at least plays a significant role (though by no means the sole cause) in the development of sexual preference.

I do find the APA's retraction interesting. It sounds to me more like a 'We really don't know what's going on here' rather than a 'We have found conclusive reasons to believe that sexuality is not genetic'. I think that leaves me enough leeway for my position.

That said I'm no psychologist. The fundamental point I would emphasize, and the one I am most concerned with regarding the ethics of the matter (particularly in relation to Christianity) is the APA's note that 'most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.'

 

[visionary]

It shows what God has ordained to be right and normal.





Many things happen. Some things that happen cause harm, and these things are wrong, and other things that happen don't harm anyone, which shows that they are ok. In the case of homosexuality, it doesn't harm anyone, and it can't be changed, so it has to be accepted.

It does not change.. Romans 1:26
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

 

[*Starlight*]

It does not change.. Romans 1:26
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.

Well, that definitely doesn't describe homosexuals. They don't exchange anything, they simply happen to fall in love with someone of the same sex. And love is good. Why would God be against homosexuality anyway?

 

[Tissue]

And homosexuality is hardly unnatural. Homosexuality is very common in non-human animals, such as dolphins and giraffes.

 

[visionary]

Well, that definitely doesn't describe homosexuals. They don't exchange anything, they simply happen to fall in love with someone of the same sex. And love is good. Why would God be against homosexuality anyway?

So what are you thinking "unnatural relations" is referring to?

 

[Blue sapphire]

But in reality, romantic love also happens in homosexual relationships. And romantic love isn't something that you can turn off by throwing a switch. As for what you quoted, these are just descriptions of heterosexual relationships. It doesn't say that these are the only kinds of relationships that exist.

This thread was started to address one specific issue......the issue of romantic love .....is far removed from the tone of this thread......and I would appreciate that for those who wish to pursue this line of thought to take to another thread.

 

[*Starlight*]

So what are you thinking "unnatural relations" is referring to?

I don't know. But homosexuals in loving relationship don't fit into that description at all. First of all, such relationships are about love, not about "shameful lusts". Second, people don't choose their sexual orientation, so they also don't "exchange it".

 

[Tissue]

This thread was started to address one specific issue......the issue of romantic love .....is far removed from the tone of this thread......and I would appreciate that for those who wish to pursue this line of thought to take to another thread.

Your subject is terribly confined then. This is the Christian Ethics thread. The answer to your question necessarily has implications on the nature of love, and homosexuals, and their inclusion in the church.

Welcome to CF.

 

[David Brider]

This thread was started to address one specific issue......the issue of romantic love .....is far removed from the tone of this thread......and I would appreciate that for those who wish to pursue this line of thought to take to another thread.

Romantic love is a pretty substantial part of homosexuality, though.

 

[Blue sapphire]

Your subject is terribly confined then. This is the Christian Ethics thread. The answer to your question necessarily has implications on the nature of love, and homosexuals, and their inclusion in the church.

Welcome to CF.

Well.....tissue....I had some things I wanted to address.......I have sought advice from CF....preferably those who have some insight to offer.....and I find that when the topic gets off the OP.....the reason for the thread gets lost....and the answers to my question start to go onto another tangent.

I suppose you could call it good manners to at least keep to the OP and line of thinking I am trying to pursue.......the debate about whether homosexuality and the expression of it..... is right in God's eyes if for another thread.....the Bible is clear that certain types of behaviour and this includes all types of sexual sin..... is not what God would want....and this thread follows that line of thought.

Can we agree on this please

 

[visionary]

Still an unnatural act and relationship in God's eyes.. doesn't matter how you feel, how strongly this love is, nor what even we think about it all. .. there is no way of getting around the fact that in God's eyes it is an unnatural act and relationship that is considered an abomination. This thread probably illustrates the reason in the rebellious determination to justify that which God does not.

 

[herev]

This thread was started to address one specific issue......the issue of romantic love .....is far removed from the tone of this thread......and I would appreciate that for those who wish to pursue this line of thought to take to another thread.

threads have a life of their own

 

[herev]

Well.....tissue....I had some things I wanted to address.......I have sought advice from CF....preferably those who have some insight to offer.....and I find that when the topic gets off the OP.....the reason for the thread gets lost....and the answers to my question start to go onto another tangent.

I suppose you could call it good manners to at least keep to the OP and line of thinking I am trying to pursue.......the debate about whether homosexuality and the expression of it..... is right in God's eyes if for another thread.....the Bible is clear that certain types of behaviour and this includes all types of sexual sin..... is not what God would want....and this thread follows that line of thought.

Can we agree on this please

the way to do that in a thread like this is to keep going back to the OP, address those posts that address it, and ignore the rest.

 

[*Starlight*]

Still an unnatural act and relationship in God's eyes.. doesn't matter how you feel, how strongly this love is, nor what even we think about it all. ..

So, do you believe that God is evil and wants people to suffer horribly instead of living in a happy loving relationship?

there is no way of getting around the fact that in God's eyes it is an unnatural act and relationship that is considered an abomination.

Not fact. It's a belief.

 

[Blue sapphire]

Originally Posted by Blue sapphire

Well.....tissue....I had some things I wanted to address.......I have sought advice from CF....preferably those who have some insight to offer.....and I find that when the topic gets off the OP.....the reason for the thread gets lost....and the answers to my question start to go onto another tangent.

I suppose you could call it good manners to at least keep to the OP and line of thinking I am trying to pursue.......the debate about whether homosexuality and the expression of it..... is right in God's eyes if for another thread.....the Bible is clear that certain types of behaviour and this includes all types of sexual sin..... is not what God would want....and this thread follows that line of thought.

Can we agree on this please

the way to do that in a thread like this is to keep going back to the OP, address those posts that address it, and ignore the rest.

Thank you for addressing my concerns herev......but can I just clarify......when an OP has started a particular topic and is looking for a better understanding.......the ones who are posting separate to this should have some manners and respect the OP requests......this prevents the thread being cluttered up with other issues......which is what I didn't want.

Isn't this a valid request that should be followed.