Home Churches, and the True Assembling of the Brethren

TheNorwegian

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There are no pastors nor teachers that I have found to be in the right here in America. I have searched in many places with the intent to come under guidance and leadership, but have found none. Everyone has a different flavor of false doctrine, and everyone is in sin in some way or another, at least here in America. So yes, it is just I for now here in in this city, until I am baptized in holy spirit myself, and then go on to carry a powerful ministry for the Lord here in America or wherever he sends me, to plant house churches.

Are you seriously suggesting that you are the only one in America that is in the right and is not living in sin? It reminds me of onw of my favourite sayings: "Some of those that are confident that the Holy Spirit is speaking to them, have very little confidence in the Holy Spirit's ability to speak to others"

Having said this, I do have sympathy with your focus on house churches. I have helped to establish a number of them. However, it is quite clear that the first Christians did not meet exclusively in homes (Acts 2:46a +19:9 +16:13-16 etc.)
 
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royal priest

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This is actually not a true teaching. We are called to be partakers in the sufferings of Jesus Christ as well. If you do not suffer, you are a bastard child as Paul says. This is why even the apostles were tortured, and even martyred. We are all called to suffer as Jesus suffered, and in most cases, to be martyred for his sake as well, and be offered up to God as sacrifices. There are only three outcomes for a believer, either you will die martyred, or you will die from natural causes of old age, or you will not taste death if you happen to be alive at his second coming. Yet all these three, do indeed always suffer beatings and tortures and prison and reviling against. The things of the kingdom of God are in complete opposition of the way of the world.
But Jesus bore the iniquities of His people and God has removed their sin as far as the east is from the west. In Christ, we are already seated in Heaven Ephesians 2:5-6. Endurance of our suffering is only the evidence of the salvation Christ had already completed on our behalf.
 
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cgaviria

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The Creator is from everlasting to everlasting Psalms 90:2. The Spirit of God was present prior to Creation, Genesis 1:2 and is eternal Hebrews 9:14

We are said to be image-bearers, and kings are referred to as gods, but they (nor any creature)do or can share the perfect and infinite value of God's attributes.

First of all, the spirit of God upon the water was actually Jesus himself. This was the evidence of a pre-existing Jesus in the Genesis account, but his identity as Jesus was a mystery and unknown until he was revealed thousands of years later. This spirit of God, is the one that then starting speaking, which was actually Jesus speaking.

Next, "eonial Spirit" doesn't mean that the spirit has always existed, but instead, means it is eonial, and lives endlessly, but this itself does not convey that it has never begun. As even those that inherit eonial life themselves, also at one point began as well.
 
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cgaviria

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Are you seriously suggesting that you are the only one in America that is in the right and is not living in sin? It reminds me of onw of my favourite sayings: "Some of those that are confident that the Holy Spirit is speaking to them, have very little confidence in the Holy Spirit's ability to speak to others"

Having said this, I do have sympathy with your focus on house churches. I have helped to establish a number of them. However, it is quite clear that the first Christians did not meet exclusively in homes (Acts 2:46a +19:9 +16:13-16 etc.)

Maybe I am, maybe I'm not, but from my own search, I have not found not even one.
 
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cgaviria

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But Jesus bore the iniquities of His people and God has removed their sin as far as the east is from the west. In Christ, we are already seated in Heaven Ephesians 2:5-6. Endurance of our suffering is only the evidence of the salvation Christ had already completed on our behalf.

Jesus did indeed atone for sins, but this does not mean we do not partake in his sufferings. There are many scriptures that indicate we must also suffer as he suffered. And imagine, if Jesus himself suffered being sinless, how much more are we deserving of suffering having had sin? The atonement of sin brings forth forgiveness of sin that we may have eonial life, but it does not take away the requirement for us to suffer as well. Those who teach that we don't need to suffer are in complete doctrinal error.
 
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royal priest

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First of all, the spirit of God upon the water was actually Jesus himself. This was the evidence of a pre-existing Jesus in the Genesis account, but his identity as Jesus was a mystery and unknown until he was revealed thousands of years later. This spirit of God, is the one that then starting speaking, which was actually Jesus speaking.

Next, "eonial Spirit" doesn't mean that the spirit has always existed, but instead, means it is eonial, and lives endlessly, but this itself does not convey that it has never begun. As even those that inherit eonial life themselves, also at one point began as well.
Wow! Can you demonstrate this from the Bible?
 
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cgaviria

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Maybe I am, maybe I'm not, but from my own search, I have not found not even one.

Also, you are correct, they did not just meet in homes, they met wherever unbelievers gathered, which included synagogues. And then when they were done reasoning with unbelievers to try to bring them to repentance, the brethren assembled in their homes. There is a difference between these two actions.
 
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royal priest

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Jesus did indeed atone for sins, but this does not mean we do not partake in his sufferings. There are many scriptures that indicate we must also suffer as he suffered. And imagine, if Jesus himself suffered being sinless, how much more are we deserving of suffering having had sin? The atonement of sin brings forth forgiveness of sin that we may have eonial life, but it does not take away the requirement for us to suffer as well. Those who teach that we don't need to suffer are in complete doctrinal error.
Yes we must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of Heaven. Acts of the Apostles 14:22 But we can't add anything to something that is already completed. Romans 5:9
 
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cgaviria

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Wow! Can you demonstrate this from the Bible?

Absolutely. I have a study on this topic already actually, do you mind if I quote you the study? Its not too long, but all the scriptures are there, and it is indeed enlightening, as it is something that God has allowed me to perceive and therefore I wrote the study.
 
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TheNorwegian

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Maybe I am, maybe I'm not, but from my own search, I have not found not even one.

My advice would be to keep on looking. If you cannot find one person you can learn from, I would suggest you have a bigger problem than the people you compare yourself with: It is called arrogance, and being puffed up.

We all need to be in fellowship with other Christians, submitting to one another. We do not submit to Christians who have no faults - even the Apostle Peter had his faults (Galatians 2). I am not saying you should accept sin or wrong doctrine. But thinking that every single Christian in America is wrong, and now finally you have arrived on the scene with the full understanding ...

For the record: I am not American :)
 
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royal priest

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Jesus did indeed atone for sins, but this does not mean we do not partake in his sufferings. There are many scriptures that indicate we must also suffer as he suffered. And imagine, if Jesus himself suffered being sinless, how much more are we deserving of suffering having had sin? The atonement of sin brings forth forgiveness of sin that we may have eonial life, but it does not take away the requirement for us to suffer as well. Those who teach that we don't need to suffer are in complete doctrinal error.
Our stripes don't heal us, Jesus' stripes do!1 Peter 2:21-24
 
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cgaviria

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Yes we must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of Heaven. Acts of the Apostles 14:22 But we can't add anything to something that is already completed. Romans 5:9

You are speaking out of confusion, us suffering is not adding anything, it is us being partakers in the suffering of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ led an example of the type of life we need to live. If we do not live as he lived, then we are not worthy of him.
 
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royal priest

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Absolutely. I have a study on this topic already actually, do you mind if I quote you the study? Its not too long, but all the scriptures are there, and it is indeed enlightening, as it is something that God has allowed me to perceive and therefore I wrote the study.
Please share
 
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royal priest

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You are speaking out of confusion, us suffering is not adding anything, it is us being partakers in the suffering of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ led an example of the type of life we need to live. If we do not live as he lived, then we are not worthy of him.
I thought you adding to your idea of a works-oriented salvation (we need to sell our possessions in order to receive the Holy Spirit)
 
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cgaviria

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I thought you adding to your idea of a works-oriented salvation (we need to sell our possessions in order to receive the Holy Spirit)

Suffering comes after receiving holy spirit. It becomes part of your new life as a born again believer.
 
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First and foremost, the pre-existence of Jesus in the beginning does not imply that he has always existed, although it is true that he did pre-exist. The scriptures are very clear in this. How this is possible is miraculous. But just as God is able to resurrect a body and place the mind of someone that has been deceased in it, so is he able to place the the same mind that spoke the world into existence into a new earthly body. Before the Word began speaking things into existence, the earth and the water already existed, as it is said,

[1] In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth. [2] But the earth was unseen and unready, and darkness was upon the abyss, and spirit of God bore upon the water. [3] And God said, Let there be light! And there was light.
(Genesis 1:1-3 [ABP])

Notice how "the earth was unseen and unready". Why was it unseen? Because there was no light to illuminate it yet. Why was it unready? Because nothing had been created yet to give it light and order to make it ready for its purpose. The earth was already there before the Word began speaking things into existence on it. And not just the earth, but water was already there. How is this possible if the Word hasn't started speaking yet? Its because it was the Father that established the foundation first, and then the Word began speaking things into existence that filled it. What did the Word bring forth exactly? It brought forth light, it brought forth the division of light and darkness, it brought forth a firmament, it brought forth the sources of light in the heaven, it brought forth dry land, it brought forth plants and trees and vegetation, it brought forth all living things, and many other things. It brought into existence things that filled the earth and the heaven that the Father had already established. The Word brought forth these things into existence by speech, such as "let there be light", that is why he is called the Word, because he is also the speech of God. "Word" in the Greek means speech, talking. And as a consequence of the speech uttered by Jesus Christ in the beginning did all things come into existence. Going further Colossians we even read,

[15] who is the image of the unseen God, first-born of all creation; [16] for in him were created the whole, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- the visible and the unseen; whether thrones, whether lordships, whether sovereignties, whether authorities; the whole through him and in him have been created.
(Colossians 1:15-16 [ABP])

Here we read that in the Word was created "the whole" (Greek word "pas"), which means "all", all what? The things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth as the verse goes on to describe what all things specifically. Colossians says, "the visible and the unseen; whether thrones, whether lordships, whether sovereignties, whether authorities". The Word created all these things that filled the heaven and the earth. And its because of this, that the Word is also mentioned in this scripture as the "first-born of all creation", because Jesus, the Word, was created first before all living beings, then afterwards all living beings were created through Jesus, which includes angels, man, and animals.... all living things. Why is this of great significance? Because it demonstrates two actions, the Father creating a foundation, and then the Word creating things upon that foundation. As it is even written,

God in wisdom founded the earth; and he prepared the heavens in intelligence. (Proverbs 3:19 [ABP])

It was the Father who founded the earth, and prepared the heaven. So in the father founding the earth, and preparing the heaven, he then had Jesus create things on that which the Father founded and prepared. Also we read,

the one laying the foundation for the earth in its stability (it shall not lean into the eon of the eon); (Psalms 104:5 [ABP])

The Father laid the foundation of the earth. Also we read,

Where were you in my laying the foundation for the earth? And report to me! if you should have knowledge of understanding. (Job 38:4 [ABP])

The Father did create certain things first, before the speech began uttering things to fill it and bring order to it. So, what were specific things that the Father himself created to lay his foundation on the earth? He created water that existed as a part of his foundation on the earth. He created his spirit, or rather air (air and spirit are synonymous throughout scripture) that bore upon the water, and he created words and language (or rather, he created the Word, that is Jesus, to speak things into existence to fill the heaven and earth). These things existed in the very beginning already before the speech began uttering because it was the Father that created them directly by laying his foundation of the earth and preparing the heaven. All these things that the Father initially created were created in the commencement of day one, which is the beginning of creation, and from there the start of days began when things were brought forth into existence into the void. In fact, it was when everything came forth into existence that day one started. And then Jesus spoke on that same day to bring light into existence.

Here we have an affirmation that the Word created things,

[1] In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. [2] This one was in the beginning with God. [3] All through him existed, and apart from him existed not even one thing which exists.
(John 1:1-3 [ABP])

Notice how it says, "all through him existed". This isn't talking about the foundation of the earth and the prepared heaven, otherwise it would contradict other scripture, it is talking about all living beings. All living beings through him existed, and not one living being which exists, exists apart from him. This translation adds the word "thing", or "one thing", as do most other translations, but the word "thing" is not part of the original text, the original text only has the word "one", so adding the word "thing" adds confusion as to what this scripture is referring to. You can view the interlinear of the verse here to see for yourself (even this interlinear adds the word "things" to "all things", but it should instead be rendered as just "all"). Lets look at the word "all", or "panta" in the Greek in other passages,

For amen I say to you, until whenever shall pass away the heaven and the earth, one iota or one dot in no way should pass from the law, until whenever all comes to pass. (Matthew 5:18 [ABP])

Here it translated correctly as just "all", because that is what "panta" means, and it is sufficient for this scripture. Lets then look at the word "one", which is Greek word "hen",

And if your right eye causes you to stumble, take it out, and throw it from you! for it is advantageous to you that one of your members should be destroyed, and your entire body should not be thrown into Gehenna. (Matthew 5:29 [ABP])

Again, just the word "one" is sufficient. So appending "all things" and "one thing" are merely just renderings that the translators thought were correct in accordance with their own doctrine but is not what is conveyed in the original text. So the translation should read, "All through him existed, and apart from him existed not even one which exists". As you even read further,

He was in the world, and the world by him existed, and the world knew him not. (John 1:10 [ABP])

Notice that this scripture is indicating that Jesus created the "world", and that the "world didn't know him". It's not referring to the earth not knowing him, its referring to the people he created in the world not knowing him, since all living things were created through him. The "world" is actually even a larger scope than just living things, it is everything that is created on the earth, living things, kingdoms, animals, etc. The world is not the earth, but rather the world is on the earth. We see this clear usage of the word "world" in other instances,

[15] Do not love the world, nor the things in the world! If anyone should love the world, the love of the father is not in him; [16] for every thing in the world– the desire of the flesh, and the desire of the eyes, and the ostentatiousness of existence, is not of the father, but is of the world.
(I John 2:15-16 [ABP])

Jesus is not saying don't love the earth, he's saying don't love the "world", meaning the current world that exists on the earth. The Greek word for "world" is kosmos. It connotes the "world" upon the earth as it is clear in various other usages. Here is another instance,

If the world detests you, know that it detested me first before you! (John 15:18 [ABP])

Here also, its not talking about the earth. The earth doesn't detest Jesus Christ, but rather, it is the world, or rather, the people of the world. So again, the word "world" conveys the things that are currently upon the earth. It also conveys a way of life in the current world by the people of the current world. The current world upon the earth is evil.

Going further, Jesus also affirmed himself to be I AM. In saying this, he wasn't affirming that he has always existed as the Father does, but rather, that he is existed before Abraham was and even before the world was brought forth into existence,

And now you glorify me, O father, with the glory of yourself! which I had with you before the world being in existence. (John 17:5 [ABP])

Even in Jesus affirming that he existed beforehand, he also affirms that he is also lesser than the Father, which is in itself also indicative that Jesus began whereas the Father never did,

You heard that I said to you, I go away, and I come to you. If you loved me, you would have rejoiced that I said, I go to the father, for my father is greater than me. (John 14:28 [ABP])

Taking things further, this scripture is also of importance,

For thus God loved the world, so that he gave his only born son, that every one trusting in him, should not perish, but should have eternal life. (John 3:16 [ABP])

Notice the use of only born son. Why is he the only born son? Because he is the only being that has ever been created directly by the Father, and then, all other living things came forth from the Son. Even so, the mere usage of the word son to describe Jesus also indicates that he began, for does a son precede a father or even come at the same time as a father? No, a father comes first, then a son. So therefore, if the Father never began, it stands to reason that Jesus began as that would be the next order of precedence, Jesus was indeed birthed into existence. Hence why we also have this scripture,

declaring the order of the LORD. The LORD said to me, you are my son, I today engendered you. (Psalms 2:7 [ABP])

"Today", meaning at some point in time since time began, Jesus was birthed into existence. Going further, some might say, well if Jesus Christ was created, then how can he be God? And also, how can a creature also be a creator? There is one thing that is apparent in the way God creates certain things, he creates things that image himself, in one example we have,

Then God said, "Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us. They will reign over the fish in the sea, the birds in the sky, the livestock, all the wild animals on the earth, and the small animals that scurry along the ground." (Genesis 1:26)

What is an image? It is something that reflects something else. It is something lesser that reflects something greater. In this case, man was made in the image of God. Man, being lesser, reflects God, who is greater. How does man reflect God? In that man, just as God, participates in the creation nature of God, in the procreation of man and woman. So man himself, in being made as an image of God, act like God in birthing beings into existence. And what else does God give man? He gives him dominion over what he created,

And God blessed them, saying, Grow and multiply, and fill the earth, and dominate it! And control the fishes of the sea, and the winged creatures of the heaven, and all the cattle, and all of the earth, and all of the reptiles of the ones crawling upon the earth! (Genesis 1:28 [ABP])

So we see two things indicated here. God creates an image of himself, and God gives image of himself dominion. So what's to say, that if God did this to lesser living beings being man and woman, that he did not himself do the same with his very own son as the highest image of himself over everything he created? And yes, even the scriptures call Jesus the image of God,

who is the image of the unseen God, first-born of all creation; (Colossians 1:15 [ABP])

But he is not just any image, he is the very representation of what all the Father is and is made highest of all creation,

who being the radiance of the glory, and impression of his essence, and bearing the whole by the word of his power, by himself making a cleansing of our sins, he sat at the right of the greatness in heights; (Hebrews 1:3 [ABP])

And we even see indicated that Jesus was given authority over all things since he is the highest of all creation,

And having come forward, Jesus spoke to them, saying, all authority was given to me in heaven and upon earth. (Matthew 28:18 [ABP])

God gave Jesus Christ, his very own image, dominion and authority over all heaven and earth, making Jesus to be God over his creation. Lets jump to another example of where God gives authority and power to beings that he creates,

Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1)

Notice how God said he made Moses as God to Pharaoh. Moses was acting as God to Pharaoh on behalf of God. And in acting as God what did Moses do? He brought forth the plagues of Egypt showing the power of God. He was acting as God to Pharaoh because God made him so, and through Moses God brought forth his power and wonders. Now we know that the actual power to carry out these mighty deeds comes from the Father, and even in Jesus speaking the world into existence, it was the Father who carried out the actual bringing forth into existence. The Father chooses beings he created to be representations, or "images", to carry out his mighty works. The Father is a being that the earth nor the heaven can contain, as no created place can contain an infinite being, as it is said here,

But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built! (I Kings 8:27 [NIV])

So therefore, the Father chooses to express himself through beings he has created. He give authority to sons he has engendered, some lesser and some great authority, and Jesus himself being of the greatest authority, with greater power than even Moses, and in God acting through them is the Father himself also glorified.

So up to this point, we have concluded several things. That the Father brought forth the Son into existence and founded the earth and prepared the heaven, and the son spoke things unto existence upon the foundation the Father placed.

Finally, there is one last thing concerning this study that proves the pre-existence of Jesus Christ, and is indeed an incredible revelation. Since only the Father is uncreated, and Jesus was the only being directly created by the Father, and all life did indeed come through Jesus, then who is the spirit of God in Genesis 1:2?

But the earth was unseen and unready, and darkness was upon the abyss, and spirit of God bore upon the water. (Genesis 1:2 [ABP])

The spirit of God is none other than Jesus himself, who then spoke things into existence. This is the proof that there was indeed a being, other than the Father, that existed in the beginning to thus create speak and create.
 
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cgaviria

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My advice would be to keep on looking. If you cannot find one person you can learn from, I would suggest you have a bigger problem than the people you compare yourself with: It is called arrogance, and being puffed up.

We all need to be in fellowship with other Christians, submitting to one another. We do not submit to Christians who have no faults - even the Apostle Peter had his faults (Galatians 2). I am not saying you should accept sin or wrong doctrine. But thinking that every single Christian in America is wrong, and now finally you have arrived on the scene with the full understanding ...

For the record: I am not American :)

Buddy, refusing to go to a false church is not arrogant, it is being obedient to God. We are warned and instructed to not take part with false churches, because any man who goes to a church that is not completely in line with God will himself be punished just as everyone in that same church, including the leadership, and I have no intention of losing my salvation over some people that have no clue what they're talking about, and are living in sin and not in accordance with scripture.
 
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TheNorwegian

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Buddy, refusing to go to a false church is not arrogant, it is being obedient to God. We are warned and instructed to not take part with false churches, because any man who goes to a church that is not completely in line with God will himself be punished just as everyone in that same church, including the leadership, and I have no intention of losing my salvation over some people that have no clue what they're talking about, and are living in sin and not in accordance with scripture.

Losing your salvation because you hang out with Christians that are not 100 % right? Makes me wonder why Paul kept his friendship with the Christians in Corinth. I guess Paul got condemned by God together with the Corinthians then

Anyway, what you are saying is that you are the only one in America that will not be punished by God, because everybody else is wrong? Just wow!
 
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