He wants EVERYONE saved?

[MoreCoffee]

What is the reason people are in hell? Punishment, or something else?

In Matthew's gospel the Lord answers your question thus:

(Matthew 25:31-46) 31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory: 32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats; 33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in; 36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink? 38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, [even] these least, ye did it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me. 46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.​

The indifference to the suffering of the least of Christ's brethren appears to be the reason for their condemnation to eternal punishment.

 

[Hammster]

In Matthew's gospel the Lord answers your question thus:

(Matthew 25:31-46) 31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory: 32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats; 33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in; 36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink? 38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, [even] these least, ye did it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me. 46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.​

The indifference to the suffering of the least of Christ's brethren appears to be the reason for their condemnation to eternal punishment.

How can they be punished? Didn't Christ pay the price for sin for all men?

 

[MoreCoffee]

How can they be punished? Didn't Christ pay the price for sin for all men?

Christ redeemed mankind. Clearly being redeemed does not mean what your post suggests. Jesus Christ is the redeemer of mankind. Christ paid the price of his own sacrificial death on the cross to ransom us, to set us free from the slavery of sin, thus achieving our redemption.

 

[Hammster]

Christ redeemed mankind. Clearly being redeemed does not mean what your post suggests. Jesus Christ is the redeemer of mankind. Christ paid the price of his own sacrificial death on the cross to ransom us, to set us free from the slavery of sin, thus achieving our redemption.

So everyone is free from the slavery of sin.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So everyone is free from the slavery of sin.

Everyone who comes to the light - Christ being the light of the world - has grace to resist sin and to repent of it.

 

[Hammster]

Everyone who comes to the light - Christ being the light of the world - has grace to resist sin and to repent of it.

So everyone isn't free. You should make up your mind. Every time you tell me one thing that Christ has done for all men, it turns out it isn't really for all men.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So everyone isn't free. You should make up your mind. Every time you tell me one thing that Christ has done for all men, it turns out it isn't really for all men.

I'm content to let holy scripture be the guide in these matters. I've given scripture for the reason why some refuse to come to the light (John chapter three) and why Christ's passion redeemed mankind (First Timothy chapter two) and why the wicked who refuse the light are judged (Matthew twenty five). Each passage speaks the truths already discussed.

 

[Hammster]

I'm content to let holy scripture be the guide in these matters. I've given scripture for the reason why some refuse to come to the light (John chapter three) and why Christ's passion redeemed mankind (First Timothy chapter two) and why the wicked who refuse the light are judged (Matthew twenty five). Each passage speaks the truths already discussed.

All I've seen is that you've found scriptures that support your view, but in the context you've presented them, cannot be reconciled with each other. If you are content with that, so be it.

 

[MoreCoffee]

All I've seen is that you've found scriptures that support your view, but in the context you've presented them, cannot be reconciled with each other. If you are content with that, so be it.

I will not argue against your perceptions. I say only that each passage was quoted with sufficient context to make its meaning apparent and that not one of them contradicts any other. If your theology needs to add words like "types of" to the "all [types of] people" in First Timothy chapter two then so be it. Your theological system is yours. If it satisfies you then okay. That is the end of the matter as long as you adhere to it.

 

[Hammster]

I will not argue against your perceptions. I say only that each passage was quoted with sufficient context to make its meaning apparent and that not one of them contradicts any other. If your theology needs to add words like "types of" to the "all [types of] people" in First Timothy chapter two then so be it. Your theological system is yours. If it satisfies you then okay. That is the end of the matter as long as you adhere to it.

The passages don't contradict each other. What is contradicting is your use/understanding of them. When I question your use/understanding, you just either requote it, or quote another as if that's satisfactory.

And I didn't add words. That's a completely false accusation. I do, however, understand that words have different meanings depending on context. For example, in John the word "world" has at least 8 different meanings. If we were to read it in a wooden literal way, you'd come up with all sorts of strange things. So "all" needs to be treated the same way.

 

[Pedrito]

The Definitive Answer May Be Simple To Find

Much has been written.
Much has been wrote.
There may be some things
That I did not note.

(41 pages is a lot to get through and remember)​

The answers to apparently difficult questions can often be found by simply looking at what the Bible states, in the absence of the normal filters which we are taught to apply to it.

With the aim of providing some possibly helpful background regarding the title of this thread, I tender the following questions for careful consideration.

1. To what Scriptures was Paul referring in 2 Timothy 3:15 as being able to make people “wise unto salvation”? I.e. what were the Scriptures available in his day, those to which Timothy understood his mentor to be referring?

2. What did God tell Adam would happen to him if he disobeyed God's command?

3. What did Adam understand that to mean (and how did he)?

4. Did Adam disobey?

5. Did Adam die?

6. What did God reveal in the inspired Hebrew Scriptures (the Tanach, the so-called “Old Testament”), regarding the mechanism by which He would restore people from being dead? I.e. what did God reveal they could look forward to?

7. What did Paul (Saul of Tarsus) declare was his great hope?

8. What does Acts 3:21 actually state? (Can it really mean, as we are told by many, that the whole world will become righteous prior to Jesus' return [even though Satan will not yet be bound]?)

9. What does God declare, in those very same inspired Hebrew Scriptures mentioned above, will be the future of Sodom and Gomorrah? Does that clarify the intended meaning of Acts 3:21 (among other things)?

I would suggest that honestly finding and accepting the precise answers to the above questions will lead, at least part-way, to the unequivocal answer to the title question of this thread – will lead to the definitive Yes or No first, and then lead definitively to the related question, “Why?”.

If such thoughts have already been expressed in this thread or elsewhere, please forgive me.

 

[Pedrito]

Explanation Requested

On 28th April 2015, 12:50 AM MoreCoffee submitted:

Originally Posted by Hammster

What is the reason people are in hell? Punishment, or something else?

In Matthew's gospel the Lord answers your question thus:

(Matthew 25:31-46) 31 But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory: 32 and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats; 33 and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in; 36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. 37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink? 38 And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39 And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, [even] these least, ye did it unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink; 43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me. 46 And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

The indifference to the suffering of the least of Christ's brethren appears to be the reason for their condemnation to eternal punishment.

I believe I can be forgiven for being a little confused.

I thought salvation was supposed to be by faith.

Yet here we have a passage that appears to teach salvation based on works, submitted to explain the basis on which people are bound for Heaven or Hell. According to the passage as presented, the answer to the original question (the subject of this thread) is thus: No. God does not want everyone saved. He is going to condemn all who show "indifference to the suffering of the least of Christ's brethren", and save only those who help them.

I find that very confusing, because:
1. People who show indifference in a specific situation are doomed.
2. Those who help in that same specific situation are saved.
3. Those who are not in a position to do either, are not even mentioned.

Does anyone else find it confusing?

James 2:14-26 cannot be invoked as relevant here with respect to the works, because the above applies to “all the nations”. And it apparently includes people who have never had contact with Jesus' brethren in any way.

I can understand people being turned off some forms of Christianity because of perceived inconsistencies in what they are told the Bible teaches and in evidence presented.

I would really like to understand, with precision, how this all ties together.

Would someone please offer aid in this regard?

 

[Hammster]

I don't think salvation by works is the picture in Matt 25. It's a description of sheep and goats. Sheep act like sheep. Goats act like goats.

 

[twin1954]

I don't think salvation by works is the picture in Matt 25. It's a description of sheep and goats. Sheep act like sheep. Goats act like goats.

While it is true that sheep act like sheep and goats act like goats, which is clearly shown in the passage, I don't think that that is the entire message
Christ was teaching.

I believe He was showing the distinction between those who think that they deserve to go to Heaven and those who do not. The sheep didn't know that they had done the things He said that they did but the goats thought that they had.

It is a constant theme in the teaching of the Lord. The elder brother in the parable of the prodigal son is a good example. He thought he deserved the fatted calf and the ring and the robe because he didn't run off.


BTW, the fact that the sheep had no idea that they had done the works is very telling. The good works that believers do are not to be seen of men and we don't even know that we are doing them.

 

[98cwitr]

I don't think salvation by works is the picture in Matt 25. It's a description of sheep and goats. Sheep act like sheep. Goats act like goats.

Can a goat choose to be a sheep?

 

[Hammster]

Can a goat choose to be a sheep?

No.

 

[MWood]

What are the works that we will be judged on at the Judgment seat of Christ?

 

[Job8]

What are the works that we will be judged on at the Judgment seat of Christ?

Our entire Christian life will be under review. There will be rewards for the things that are commendable to Christ, and loss of rewards for the things which are not.

But our salvation will always be secure, since it is purely a gift of God's grace. To tie this in with the OP, if all would be saved, then all would be at the Judgment Seat of Christ (which is reserved for the saints). But no one is excluded from God's grace. People choose to exclude themselves by not obeying the Gospel. God invites all to partake of the water of life freely (Rev 22:17).

 

[Avid]

Our entire Christian life will be under review...

Regardless of who we are, or what we think, we will stand before the LORD as Judge.

Matthew 12
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
​

It seems to me that the one who Christ would save submits to God's judgment of his works while he deals with the rebellion, sin and self centered life he has lived. Also, Paul wrote in Romans:

Romans 8
1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
​

We should take this seriously, regardless of how we perceive that text. We may think, "... it's all good..." and be devastated. We may be very humble, and walk circumspect before the LORD, and be pleased with God's acceptance of us.

 

[Bluelion]

If people can not repent, then why does God call them to repent all through the Tribulation time. God calls time and time again. Repent Repent, turn to me, but the people will not turn to God. Why does God call? Does God speak in vain? If the people can not repent and God calls them to repent, then God is speaking in vain. God does not speak in vain. Also at the end an Angel fly over the earth preaching the gospel, Is the angel speaking in vain? If people can not repent as you say, what is the point of the tribulation? The Tribulation is to give people every chance to repent; and in fact, 144,000 Jews do repent during the tribulation.

I do not know God to do anything in vain. Read Revelation. God allows the Tribulation so people will repent.