He wants EVERYONE saved?

Pedrito

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I previously posted (after thanking twin1954 for his response):

The questions I would really appreciate twin1954's thoughts on are those I asked in Reply #424, regarding the Scripture passage tendered by MoreCoffee (Matthew 25:31-46) in Reply #401, and the interpretation he put on it.


So I'm looking forward expectantly to twin1954's thoughts on those questions as well, whenever their posting is deemed appropriate.


I understand that twin1954's discretionary time may be limited.


Therefore I hope that someone else may be able to step into the breach an address the questions from a Baptist perspective (either official or unofficial).


It would be great if someone would.
 
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twin1954

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I previously posted (after thanking twin1954 for his response):




I understand that twin1954's discretionary time may be limited.


Therefore I hope that someone else may be able to step into the breach an address the questions from a Baptist perspective (either official or unofficial).


It would be great if someone would.
I am sorry I had forgotten about it. The thread lay dormant for a while and it slipped my mind. I will do my best to get to it today.
 
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twin1954

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Think someone already answered this.
He wants everyone to be saved but many will reject his offer.
The Gospel of salvation is never presented as an offer in the Scriptures it is always presented as a gift. There is a huge difference between the two.
 
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twin1954

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For Pedrito;


First of all in order to be precise in answering your questions we must begin with the context of the passage. It is the final part of a sermon give to the disciples on the Mount of Olives which begins in Chapter 24:3. In the first part of the sermon He speaks to His disciples teaching them that they are not to look for signs of His coming but that many things will come to pass before the end of the world. He tells them to take heed that no man deceive them, 24:4, and then tells them that wars and earthquakes and false Christ’s and iniquity shall abound and the love of many will wax cold. He tells them that no man knows the hour and they are therefore to watch, 24:42. He warns them that thinking that He will delay His coming and following after evil, smiting his fellow servants, eating and drinking with the drunken will bring a portion with the hypocrites, false religionists.


Then He gives them three parables: The wise and foolish virgins, the parable of the talents and then the parable of the sheep and the goats.


Now we now that the Lord always dealt with spiritual truth never physical things. His parables are meant to teach one thing not many and each one has a clear meaning concerning the religion of His day and ours. All three parables are a picture of true and false religion.


The parable of the virgins contrasts clearly those who have the oil of the Spirit and those who do not. The parable of the talents contrasts those who have the light of the truth and multiplied it and those who hid the light that they had. The parable of the sheep and goats then is the last one and which we will deal with now.


I will do so by answering your questions.



Pedrito said:
1. Did Jesus reveal information about a time yet future (future both then and now)?
Yes He did. It was His intention to teach His disciples answering their question concerning the end.

2. Did Jesus state that he was going to gather the nations at that time?
Yes. Verse 32 clearly says that.

3. Is the clear meaning of that statement: (a) that Jesus is going to gather all people from all those nations; or (b) that he is going to gather people here and there from the nations?
All people from all nations.

3a. What did the disciples naturally understand Jesus' words to mean?
Beware of the natural understanding. What we naturally understand is always wrong. Actually we are not told how they understood the sermon. We do know that up until He had been raised from the dead they didn’t really fully grasp much except that He was the Messiah. He taught the disciples on the road to Emmaus and opened their understanding of the Scriptures and they began to recall His teachings with spiritual eyes.

4. Did Jesus clearly state the basis on which one group extracted from those gathered people would be going to Heaven?
No. What He did was contrast those who were religious, specifically the Jews of His day, and true believers. He was simply pointing out that those who think they are serving God, when didn’t we do those things, and those who actually did them but didn’t even know that they had will receive a different judgment.

5. Did Jesus clearly state the basis on which the other group extracted from those gathered people (the remainder) would go to Hell?
Not in the way you think. As I explained above He was giving a parable which is intended to teach only one thing and we cannot try to determine doctrine from every statement in a parable. He did state the basis but it wasn’t what they didn’t do but the fact that they were false religionists.

6. Was the explanation given by MoreCoffee correct?
No. He used it as a prooftext in order to prove his pretext. In order to interpret the passage the way he did you must rip it from its context and make it stand alone as though it wasn’t a parable.

6a. If not, where as a church-goer did he get the idea?
The same place we all get our ideas, from our tradition. Tradition isn’t bad unless it is not according to the teaching of the Scriptures as a whole. Then it is deceiving and dangerous. Col. 2:8-23

6b. If so, then why didn't Jesus mention those who were never exposed to his brethren, and never had the chance to qualify or disqualify themselves in the manner described?
Because He wasn’t teaching details concerning the judgment but contrasting false religion and true.



That is a quick exposition of the passage in its context. We know that the Scriptures clearly teach that salvation is not by works so to apply this passage as though it was is false.


When we read the parables we must seek to find the one teaching, which always has to do with spiritual things not physical, and not try to fit every detail into a doctrine.
 
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hedrick

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Now we now that the Lord always dealt with spiritual truth never physical things. His parables are meant to teach one thing not many and each one has a clear meaning concerning the religion of His day and ours. All three parables are a picture of true and false religion.

Your exegesis seems to be evading what Jesus spends most of his time on in this parable, which is that the sheep and goats are distinguished by their works. Furthermore, this parable is not alone in that. Similarly, the parable of the talents describes the talents as a gift, but says that the servants are responsible for what they do with the gift.

This is not necessarily a rejection of Reformed theology. We don't have to understand the works as something that the people produced for themselves. They could be a demonstration of the fact that they are in Christ. After all both justification and perseverance could be seen as gifts from God. Calvin points us to verse 34 particularly as indicating this . (However he also notes that a non-predestinarian reading of verse 34 is possible.) But the parable does seem to focus on their difference in works. I don't know where your idea that a parable can only teach one thing came from, but if it were true, the one thing would be that the sheep and the goats are distinguished by their works.

In fact I think the parable talks about lots of things: the fact that we're going to be judged, whatever you think verse 34 means, the fact that the sheep and the goats are distinguished by their works, and the fact that Christ's followers seem to produce these works naturally, not as a way to earn credit with God. Those with an inclusivist view could understand the latter point in an even more interesting way: those who Jesus approves may not even realize that they are following him.
 
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Avid

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People with a pure religion do good works, their works are different from those with a false religion, and especcially, their works are from a different motive.

James 1
27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Galatians 2
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The works do not save, but are a product and result of a changed life and a new motive. It is, also, that we are dead in Christ, and the life we live is His life...
 
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twin1954

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Your exegesis seems to be evading what Jesus spends most of his time on in this parable, which is that the sheep and goats are distinguished by their works. Furthermore, this parable is not alone in that. Similarly, the parable of the talents describes the talents as a gift, but says that the servants are responsible for what they do with the gift.

This is not necessarily a rejection of Reformed theology. We don't have to understand the works as something that the people produced for themselves. They could be a demonstration of the fact that they are in Christ. After all both justification and perseverance could be seen as gifts from God. Calvin points us to verse 34 particularly as indicating this . (However he also notes that a non-predestinarian reading of verse 34 is possible.) But the parable does seem to focus on their difference in works. I don't know where your idea that a parable can only teach one thing came from, but if it were true, the one thing would be that the sheep and the goats are distinguished by their works.

In fact I think the parable talks about lots of things: the fact that we're going to be judged, whatever you think verse 34 means, the fact that the sheep and the goats are distinguished by their works, and the fact that Christ's followers seem to produce these works naturally, not as a way to earn credit with God. Those with an inclusivist view could understand the latter point in an even more interesting way: those who Jesus approves may not even realize that they are following him.
Not at all. My exegesis clearly explains what Christ was teaching by those who work because their religion is based on it and those who are true believers who work but because it is natural to them as born again believers.

I recognize that your view is the common one as to understanding both parables but it doesn't fit the total context nor the fact that the Lord Jesus dealt with religion. He used physical things to illustrate spiritual truths. He spoke of the works because that is where the difference lies between true religion and false. False religion always looks to things, the point He made, and finds their comfort in the things that they do or don't do. True religion rests in Christ alone and does the works out of love and because they can't help themselves but they never loo to those works for any thing whatsoever.

Moreover the Lord used parables to confuse the natural religionist. Much of the Bible is a mystery to them actually.

Far too many think that the parables are meant to teach more than one thing. That is why they start trying to apply every detail to a doctrine and go off the deep end because of it. It is not only unnecessary but dangerous.
 
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Pedrito

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Thank you twin1954 for your insight.

Based on that insight, I will possibly request (at some future time, so as not to monopolise your time now) your understanding on another story told by Jesus.

I will most probably post the request in this thread, rather than (as a visitor) start a new thread.

For now, please just accept my thanks.
 
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twin1954

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Thank you twin1954 for your insight.

Based on that insight, I will possibly request (at some future time, so as not to monopolise your time now) your understanding on another story told by Jesus.

I will most probably post the request in this thread, rather than (as a visitor) start a new thread.

For now, please just accept my thanks.
Go ahead and ask. I would much rather have you monopolize my time, which you wouldn't be doing, than to waste it arguing over nonsense. There is nothing that I would rather be doing than talking about the things of Christ.
 
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Pedrito

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Thank you twin1954 for your invitation in Post #451.

In the thread “Baptists and the Virgin Mary” Avid made reference to Abraham's Bosom in Post #22.

He said:
Being in Paradise (Abraham's bosom) was not the penalty, but was the result, and everyone there (since the death of righteous Abel) were without remedy. It is still separation from God the Father which is a penalty as well.
...
Just because they were not in torment does not mean that everything was fine.
I would love to get your take on Jesus' story being referred to. (Luke 16:19-31)

Thanks.
 
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twin1954

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Thank you twin1954 for your invitation in Post #451.

In the thread “Baptists and the Virgin Mary” Avid made reference to Abraham's Bosom in Post #22.

He said:

I would love to get your take on Jesus' story being referred to. (Luke 16:19-31)

Thanks.
Since I was studying the passage in order to answer you I felt that the Lord gave me a message from it for this morning. Here are my sermon notes on it if you care to read them.


Introduction:

In Luke 16: 19-31 our Lord is speaking to a group of Pharisees who had earlier derided Him. In order to understand the parable we must first know something of those men to whom the Lord was speaking.

The Pharisees were the ruling sect of the Jews. They were very powerful men and, as is most often the case, used their power to become rich men. Not only were they rich and powerful but were the most strict in their religious practice. The Apostle Paul was of the sect of the Pharisees and he describes himself in Phl. 3: 4-6

(Php 3:4) Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:


(Php 3:5) Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;


(Php 3:6) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.



A Pharisee considered himself above reproach and looked down his nose at everyone who wasn’t a Pharisee. They expected that all others look up to them and that they be given all the best seats and be honored above all others.

The made a great show of their religion as well. Everything they did they did in such a way that was to be seen of men. Yet our Lord says of them that inwardly they were stinking dead corpses and more than once called them hypocrites. I don’t believe He ever had a good word to say about them or to them.

These men were the religious leaders of the Jews. They taught that happiness is the next world was dependant on how well you kept the law of Moses in this. They also added many of their own traditions to the law that had no Scriptural basis but were meant to make them seem to be very righteous. They studied the Scriptures continually and were highly educated.

Now we have some idea of who it was that the Lord spoke this parable to. In these twelve verses our Lord is telling these religious leaders of the great change that will take place after death. He is contrasting the result of resting in your self-righteousness and supposed wealth and living as one who is forced by life to depend totally on the Lord. He is preaching the Gospel to them.


I want us to look at five things in this parable so lets read it together.

(Luk 16:19) There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:


(Luk 16:20) And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,


(Luk 16:21) And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.


(Luk 16:22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;


(Luk 16:23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


(Luk 16:24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


(Luk 16:25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


(Luk 16:26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


(Luk 16:27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:


(Luk 16:28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.


(Luk 16:29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.


(Luk 16:30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.


(Luk 16:31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


First: The rich man.

Our Lord could paint a very clear picture in the mind of His hearers using few words, unlike most preachers today. With one simple sentence He gives us a very distinct and clear picture of the rich man.

He clearly describes the rich man as one who was very rich and very powerful. He was clothed in purple and fine linen and lived sumptuously every day. Only a ruler could afford those things and they were a sign of power and riches. Obviously he was a ruler among men.

The Lord here was picturing the Pharisees and their state in the present world. They were the religious leaders and supposed themselves to be the rulers of the Jewish nation. As such they gathered to themselves riches and wealth and lived as most rich men do.


Second: Poor Lazarus.

Now the Master is giving us a picture of a poor beggar who is full of sores and suffers torment in this present world. He was an outcast and considered less than nothing by the rich man. He was content to be fed by the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table and was such a helpless wretch that the dogs, considered unclean and detestable, would come and lick his sores.

This is a picture of a lost sinner who has nothing but his ugly, stinking, putrifying wretchedness to claim as his own. He has nothing he can hope in but the mercy of God. His life is one of torment because of his wretchedness. His sin is a hateful thing to him and he suffers in his heart because of it.


Third: The everlasting state of the beggar and the rich man.

Here is the crux of our Lord’s teaching in this parable. The beggar was carried by angels into Abraham’s bosom. The rich man woke up in hell being in torments. What a drastic change for both of them. The poor wretched sinner was taken to Heaven and the rich religious leader to torments in hell.

Now I must pause here to focus a moment on Abraham’s bosom. Far too many make so much of these two words as though they were to teach us something of where saved people went before the Lord died. Some suppose that Abraham’s bosom is a purgatory like place where souls went to await the time of redemption. We must remember that parables are not meant to teach many things but one spiritual truth. It is totally unwarranted to try and deduce a doctrine from this simple saying. Our Lord simply spoke to these people in a way that they could understand. Abraham’s bosom is nothing more than heaven. Every reputable commentator that I read tells us that it was a common saying among the Jews for happiness in the afterlife.

We find a parallel statement in Matt. 8:11;

(Mat 8:10) When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.


(Mat 8:11) And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.


(Mat 8:12) But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Abraham’s bosom is a picture of a feast in Heaven where the poor beggar is resting his head in the lap of father Abraham. The Jews made a big deal of being the children of Abraham and they would have understood what the Lord was saying.


Fourth: The torment of the rich man in Hell.

The rich man shut his eyes resting in his riches and comforts and woke in torments. The torments of Hell are describes in several ways in the Scriptures: A worm that never dies in Mark 9, a firey furnace in Matt. 13, the bottomless pit, lake of fire, everlasting fire and the second death in Rev. 21.

We see described for us that the rich man is fully aware of his condition and wide awake to the torments. He has full knowledge of why he is in torments, Son remember, vs. 25.

He is able to see the blessedness that he cannot experience and finds that great gulf fixed so that he cannot go to heaven’s bliss and heaven’s bliss cannot come to him. Oh what a wretched state he is in now that can never be eased or comforted.

Take heed that you do not find yourself in this torment when you die. I pray you in Christ’s stead be ye reconciled to God by faith in the finished work of Christ Jesus the Lord. Do not take the Gospel for granted and leave here and go to your end without knowing its power to save.

Fifth: The utter blindness and deaf ears of those who look to themselves and their goodness and religion instead of Christ.

They once asked the Master to give them a sign that He was who He said He was ad He told them that no sign would be given them but the sign of Jonah, that He would be raised from the dead.

The rich man being in unquenchable torments wanted Abraham to send Lazarus back to tell his brother of the danger they were in. But Abraham told him that they had Moses and the prophets let them hear them. Many think that they can find eternal life in the law and in self-righteous religion. They read and study the Scriptures and suppose that they understand them but they have no knowledge of the truth taught in them or the person and work of Christ revealed by them. Our Lord is pointing His finger of condemnation at the Pharisees and religious leaders. He points that same finger at those today who claim to be teachers of truth but will not believe and trust Christ alone. They who add to the work of Christ by their obedience, repentance, works and will.


Here is a link to the sermon if you care to listen:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sermonid=614151848193
 
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FredVB

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When Jesus spoke of Lazarus and the rich man, what were those listening to it then understanding? How many times did he speak of the hereafter? Were not circumstances in life in this world used to illustrate greater spiritual truths in parables? But here speaking directly on things happening in the hereafter must surely have those listening thinking of the hereafter being meant that way. Lazarus would be shown to them just to be someone who was in need and asking, not taking from others who aren't giving and benefiting from that, even while suffering things in this life, the rich man was showing them someone who does not see any need, and is withholding what is had in abundance from any in need to only benefit himself. So with such shown to them they see Jesus showing what would be the destiny of such in the hereafter. With the other things Jesus has said, it shows that any such in the hereafter in such blissful fellowship have repentance to sin and faith in God with trust in their redeemer, who is made known as Christ.

There is change possible in this life, from being such a one in sin with selfish motivations, and living with unbelief regarding God, to being such that come to having repentance to sin, to not take from others and benefit using them selfishly, with faith in God with trust in their redeemer.

One day, one doesn't believe, on another day, one does believe. Is it from Yahweh's grace? Yes, the Bible clearly shows that. God can and does use circumstances to turn one around. I know of accounts like that, and Paul in the Bible is a clear example of such a thing. And yes there something more besides grace. God's grace isn't irresistible, and I don't see from any scriptures that it would be. It requires response of faith, and that is enabled from God, but it is a willing response. Some don't respond that way. Such will give their own reasons, but I would think it often involves stubbornness, desires for what is sin that there won't be repentance to, and likely often self-delusion.
 
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Sovereign Grace

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The first verse you quote says God wants everyone to repent, this is true. He wants all men saved.
Few accept....

God has commanded all men everywhere to repent.(Acts 17:30) Most people will not repent because `And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil; for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;(John 3:19,20 YLT) The unregenerate have a sin hardened heart that can not receive the word(seed) for it to take root and grow. That is why regeneration has to bring about faith, repentance, a new heart and spirit(Ez. 11:19 & 36:26).


The word of GOd goes to all men.

Wait a minute. What about those in remote areas? What about those who died 2 hours after Jesus died? Did they receive the word that goes to all men?

Your(sic) next problem is your reading NIV.
Throw it away and get a real bible.

The pure version is KJV...

Ugh! What about those that can't read English? These KJVO cults are bad for business.
 
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