Having doubts about the creation of man

Bellicus

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I read on another forum yesterday about a man that were loosing his faith because of things like evolution and the connection humans got to apes. So I started to look into it, to try to find a answer, cause I were sure there were a answer to be found. But instead I started to doubt myself, when I looked at all the evidence.

This is Lucy:

180px-Lucy_Skeleton.jpg


She lived in Ethiopia 3.2 Million years ago, and she is proven to be of a race that is the ancestor to the modern day man.

And to make it more complicated, here is a neanderthal:

200px-Neanderthalensis.jpg


Let's call him Harry. His kind walked around on earth up to about 30,000 years ago. And unlike Lucy, he is proven to not be human, but of another race. But still he knew stuff like making tools like hammers, spears, axes. And some say that that race even did things like put flowers of the graves of the dead ones, and that they had a primitive form of language. So this makes it hard to say that Harry is a ape. It would be more honest to call him some form of human.

And my problem with this is that the garden of Eden was located in something that most likely was the first civilization on earth, the Sumerian one, all I know about history points to that. And that the bible describes this to be the start of humanity, and that this was also the time where the earth was created, even if this was just some 6000 years ago.

So the doubt I am getting is: What connection do Lucy and Harry got with Adam and Eve?

And don't answer at all if you think it is a good idea to give me some links to creationist websites.
 

Onlythingavailable

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The Bible isn't exactly a detailed description of how God created everything. If it was, would anyone understand it? Maybe the important point is that God created everything, and not so much how He did it. If God used evolution, then He did, if not, then He didn't.
 
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Radagast

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...This is Lucy ... She lived in Ethiopia 3.2 Million years ago, and she is proven to be of a race that is the ancestor to the modern day man.

I don't think that's "proven." I don't think enough DNA exists in the bones to prove anything.

And to make it more complicated, here is a neanderthal

But he is human (I think you've been reading unreliable books). I quote Wikipedia:

... an extinct member of the Homo genus ... either classified as a subspecies of humans (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate species (Homo neanderthalensis).... Neanderthal stone tools provide further evidence for their presence ... Neanderthal cranial capacity was much larger than modern humans, indicating their brain size may have been larger... recent genome testing of Neanderthals suggests human and Neanderthal DNA are some 99.5 percent to nearly 99.9 percent identical...

And here is one of them:

180px-Neanderthal_child.jpg


What does this mean from a Christian point of view?

Well, what the Bible says is that sometime in the past were people (Adam and Eve) who were the first humans. This could have been a lot longer than 6000 years ago. Many Christians see no conflict between what science says and what the Bible says.
 
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Catherineanne

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I read on another forum yesterday about a man that were loosing his faith because of things like evolution and the connection humans got to apes. So I started to look into it, to try to find a answer, cause I were sure there were a answer to be found. But instead I started to doubt myself, when I looked at all the evidence.

For any of us, it is important to get the basics right. Our faith is not built on Genesis, but on Christ, who is the Rock.

If your faith is grounded in Christ, then you can move on to look at the evidence for how the world was created, and nothing that you find about Lucy or Neanderthal man will be able to shake your faith - all you will find is that God is much bigger, and much more powerful, than anything we find in Genesis. All that is, was created by him, however it was made.

After that, the Bible is put into proportion. It was not written as a literal account of creation, but as the best rendition people of the time could make of their understanding of the miracle of creation. If our knowledge has gone further, then that is wonderful, but we do not need to throw away our faith with that knowledge.

It is perfectly possible to reconcile the two. God is the creator, and science tells us more day by day about how he achieved this creation. :wave:
 
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Bellicus

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I don't think that's "proven." I don't think enough DNA exists in the bones to prove anything.
I haven't studied it in detail, but it is common knowledge that Australopithecus afarensis were the ancestor to homo sapiens.

But he is human (I think you've been reading unreliable books).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/694467.stm
The DNA extracted from the ribs of a Neanderthal infant buried in southern Russia 29,000 years ago was found to be too distinct from modern human DNA to be related.
"There wasn't much, if any mixture, between Neanderthals and modern humans," said William Goodwin, of the University of Glasgow, UK. "Though they co-existed, we can't find any evidence of genetic material being passed from Neanderthals to modern humans."



DNA comparisons also showed that different ethnic groups do not have any links to Neanderthals.
So no direct connection to humans, but still something that must be said to remind a lot about humans. And this also points back to a common ancestor to both the races.
 
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Bellicus

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For any of us, it is important to get the basics right. Our faith is not built on Genesis, but on Christ, who is the Rock.

If your faith is grounded in Christ, then you can move on to look at the evidence for how the world was created, and nothing that you find about Lucy or Neanderthal man will be able to shake your faith - all you will find is that God is much bigger, and much more powerful, than anything we find in Genesis. All that is, was created by him, however it was made.

I know, it is good words that I should build my faith on the rock. But still I would like to see a connection here, between science and genesis, and it is hard to find any. It seems more like those that wrote the first chapters of genesis had no clue what they were writing, and that it is not based upon truth, but on some ancient, primitive fairytale. So that makes me wonder, when all of the scriptures is said to be the word of God. In the word of God there should be truth to be found.
 
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Radagast

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I haven't studied it in detail, but it is common knowledge that Australopithecus afarensis were the ancestor to homo sapiens.

I thought Rak et al. had demolished that theory.

So no direct connection to humans, but still something that must be said to remind a lot about humans. And this also points back to a common ancestor to both the races.

I think you miss the point: they are between 99.5% and 99.9% identical to us.

The mitochondrial DNA study the BBC referred to says that the common ancestor in the female line of all humans and all Neanderthals is a long way back. That doesn't mean "no connection." How far back is the common ancestor in the female line of you and me?

I suggest you find a good book on this stuff written by a Christian (there are several) and read it. Basically, Genesis tells us "who" and "why", Science tells us "how."

And listen to Catherineanne, she makes good sense.
 
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Mack7

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Greetings and God bless. In our society today, there are basically two common theories, the biblical and evolution. The question is sometimes, which makes more sense to us? This is where human logic always tries to come in and evaluate what is and what is not. Modern scientists, just like modern biblical scholars, determined their findings through raw facts or documentations found in the past, etc.

Because man is flawed by nature, constant scrutiny and controversies from both sides have been tampering with our belief and intelligence systems for centuries. All I do know and believe is that there is a Holy Spirit by the name of Jehovah God and in it is written in John 1:1-5, that God is and was the beginning of all things and all things were made and created by Him. Because I personally can't explain everything, I know again that it is written in Hebrews 11:1-3, where we read that FAITH is the belief in things we cannot see and things we hope that is and will be. If there is a choice to be made, I choose FAITH in God.. Better yet, I am glad that God chose me. Amen. When God spoke, things came into existence and nothing can come into this world without God. God has provided enough information for us to live through Him within the Holy Bible.

We should trust in God and His gift of eternal life to us through Jesus . We will have plenty of time to ask questions then. The task at hand is to witness for the Lord, spread the good news about Jesus and continue to pray that we will all stay in the light and blessings of the Lord. Amen.
 
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Vi

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I have a son in college, and he is scientific minded as well.
I have to have discussions on this with him all the time.
Some of what you said here is very helpful.

Now, someone want to explain the 6000 years thing (oops, wrote that wrong)...
 
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NewCovenant

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Visit "Answers in Genesis."

http://www.answersingenesis.org/

It's the ministry of Ken Ham. I heard him speak once, and he was simply brilliant. He erased my doubts. I believe I heard him say, but am not quite sure of this, that he was an evolutionist until he became convinced of the Biblical accounts of creation when he was saved. There's tons of stuff on the website.
 
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Johnnz

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Creation is not a fairy tale story. Nor is it an actual account of exactly what happened. It is a narrative that contains the 'why' of creation. There are real issues between science and the Genesis story if the time frame is only a few thousand years, as some Christians claim. Many others, including many devout, Godly scientists, accept an old earth and that the biblical account is not a chronology of creation.

John
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Catherineanne

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I know, it is good words that I should build my faith on the rock. But still I would like to see a connection here, between science and genesis, and it is hard to find any. It seems more like those that wrote the first chapters of genesis had no clue what they were writing, and that it is not based upon truth, but on some ancient, primitive fairytale. So that makes me wonder, when all of the scriptures is said to be the word of God. In the word of God there should be truth to be found.

The truth is a very rare jewel. It can be found in Scripture, just as diamonds can be found in (some) ore. But you have to do a lot of digging and searching to find diamonds, and you have to do the same to find the truth embedded within Scripture. The OT contains many such diamonds, but it is only in Christ that we find that diamond cut and mounted in pure gold, and shining brightly for all to see.

God did not dicate the Bible; it contains the gradual revelation of God to mankind over many thousands of years, culminating in the perfect revelation in Christ. We simply cannot expect every word to be as complete as if God wrote it his way, in his words. Some people treat it as if this is what Scripture is, but nowhere are we sanctioned to treat the Bible in this way.

There is a very good reason why God did not dictate the Bible, or give us his own words, and his own complete truth. If he had, we would worship the Bible, rather than him.

As indeed some Christians do. Such behaviour is blasphemy, and is in direct contradiction to what the Bible says of itself, and what it says of God, and of his Son. It is Christ who is the Word of God (see John and Revelation), and the Bible which points to him.
 
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Elijah2

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Mate, evolution is a theory, nothing more than a theory designed to destroy Christian views.

It's all anti-Christ.

I've spent a long time walking around our great country, and have seen the great creation and have seen all these theories about Lucy, and about the Peking Man, and all these great figures of theories, say 160 million years. Take a few noughts off those figures and you would get it down to 1600 years.

Mate, have you ever seen the fossils that come out of coal mines?

Have you heard the stories from coal miners who say that while digging through the coal face a live frog comes out of the coal face that is suppose to be 160 Million years old.

Have you seen a fossilised tree, fossilised in the upright position by the Great Flood sediment, and evolutionists say that each layer are different millions of years old, say one layer is 250M, the next is 200M, the next is 150M and so on and this tree that is suppose to be whatever age that they like to give fossilised in five different time frame.

Then the fossilised tree is suppose to extinct, and it's still growing in pockets through out our country.

A fossilised fish is said to be 250 million years old, but they are still catching the same fish off the west coast of Africa, and the fish they are catching today is exactly the same as the fossilised fish, which was probably covered during the Great Flood.

I could go on forever mate. There are many claims made by evolutionists, and when they are proven to be wrong, they NEVER admit to it. So a lot of the rubbish you hear today, has probably been proven false.

Have a read of just some trivial stuff that counteracts evolution theories.

Africa’s Congo jungle is becoming increasingly known as the reputed refuge of a mysterious creature called Mokele-Mbembe.1 The locals appear familiar with this creature, which they readily identify from drawings of fossil reconstructions as being like one of the dinosaurs. Few realize, however, that similar accounts occur in other parts of the world. Australian Aborigines have stories of encounters with huge, sometimes frightening monsters which range from what sound like dinosaurs to giant marsupials, also believed to have long become extinct.
<H2>The Aboriginal people


The term ‘Aboriginal’ is loosely applied to the people who were living in Australia at the time of European settlement 200 years ago. There were hundreds of different tribes scattered across the continent, varying in their language and customs.2
Dreamtime monsters

The myths and legends of the Aboriginal people, including their accounts of the creation of the world, are known as the Dreamtime. Such stories feature monsters, of whom many are mythological. Others, however, may have reference to real creatures, the Aborigines even insisting on their past ‘flesh-and-blood’ existence. Some of them are reminiscent of animals regarded as prehistoric, which supposedly became extinct tens of thousands, or even millions of years ago.
Aborigines did not keep written records—their knowledge and traditions were passed orally from one generation to the next.3 Such oral traditions tend not to last more than a few hundred years without being distorted out of recognition.4 This would suggest that some of these animals may have still been living in Australia some two to three hundred years ago, or even more recently.
Such a conclusion may surprise many, but it would explain why documented encounters with similar monsters post-date the time of European settlement.
The Geelong Bunyip

For instance, the Geelong Advertiser, of Victoria, Australia, reported in July 1845 about the finding of unfossilized bone forming part of the knee joint of some gigantic animal. The paper reported showing it to an Aboriginal they regarded as particularly intelligent. He identified it immediately as a ‘bunyip’ bone, and unhesitatingly drew the picture reproduced on page 25 of this Creation Ex Nihilo issue.
When the bone was shown to other Aboriginal people who ‘had no opportunity of communicating with each other,’ they all instantly recognized the bone and the picture as being of a ‘bunyip,’ a common word in some Aboriginal languages for a frightening monster. They gave detailed, consistent accounts of where a few people they knew had been killed by one of these. The creature was said to be amphibious, laid eggs, and from the descriptions, appeared to combine ‘the characteristics of a bird and an alligator’—i.e. a bipedal reptile. (Note that no crocodiles or alligators are found in Australia except in its far north—Geelong is deep in the south). One of the Aboriginals, named Mumbowran, showed ‘several deep wounds on his breast made by the claws of the animal.’5
The description and sketch certainly fits well with some form of bipedal dinosaur.
A large number of Aboriginal stories of creatures of possible dinosaurian origin have been collected by Rex Gilroy,6 an evolutionist. Since we should be cautious about over-reliance on this particular source without independent confirmation, a large number of the ones he describes have been omitted. However, Burrunjor and Kulta, the accounts of which appear below, also feature in a book by zoologist Karl Shuker.7
Burrunjor

Extending from the Northern Territory’s Arnhem Land east through the Gulf of Carpentaria to Queensland’s Cape York district is the story of ‘Burrunjor.’ The description is reminiscent of an Allosaurus, a smaller version of the well-known Tyrannosaurus. In 1950, cattlemen on the border between the Northern Territory and Queensland claimed losing stock to a strange beast which left mutilated, half-eaten corpses in its destructive wake. A part-Aboriginal tracker also claimed to have seen a bipedal reptile, 7–8 metres (25 feet) tall, moving through the scrub near Lagoon Creek on the Gulf Coast in 1961.
Some parts of northern Australia’s vastness are still little explored, and large areas of it are closed to public access. Perhaps some creatures unknown to science are still to be found there. That this is possible was shown a few years back when a tree, the Wollemi Pine, was found in a national park in New South Wales. Scientists said it was ‘like finding a small dinosaur.’ The tree is known from its fossils in ‘dinosaur age’ rock, but these are not found in any of the layers in between. Unlike an animal, a tree cannot run away and hide, yet this tree was completely unknown to science till recently.8
Kulta

Some parts of Australia have traditions of huge reptiles suggestive of long-necked sauropods, the dinosaur group which includes Diplodocus and Apatosaurus. For instance, Central Australian tribes described ‘Kulta’ as a giant serpent who lived in the swamps which once covered the region, and ate plants. He was said to have a small head at the end of a long, narrow neck, a massive, bulky body supported by four huge legs, and a long, pointed tail which trailed behind him. This is similar to the accounts of Wanambi from northern Australia, who features in Aboriginal cave paintings, and Kooleen and Myndie from Victoria.6
Unfortunately, the Aborigines maintain, the ‘land eventually all dried up, the forests became desert, the swamps emptied, and Kulta died.’6 This actually fits the most common creationist models of the changing climate after Noah’s Flood.
Since most of the water for the Flood came up from under the ground (Genesis 7:11 and 8:2), the post-Flood oceans would have been warmer than today. This would have generated extra moisture in the atmosphere for centuries afterwards, providing ideal conditions for an ice age.9 This same increase in moisture would have meant that there was much more rainfall for centuries after the Flood in regions not affected by ice.
Eventually, the rainfall patterns would have ‘normalized’ once all the excess oceanic heat had come into balance with the air temperature. This is consistent with the universally held view that Australia’s now-arid heart was once a lushly forested, humid environment. Thus Australia’s dinosaurs, at least, may have died out largely as a result of the environmental changes as vast areas of the inland relentlessly dried up.
Nessie: living in a Queensland lake?

While the controversy surrounding Scotland’s famous Loch Ness Monster waxes and wanes, many people are unaware that lake monsters have been reported elsewhere. Large unexplained animals similar to Nessie are said to inhabit several lakes, in both hemispheres. These are generally ones which are deep, remote, and have a water temperature around 10°C.10
Dennis Fields, a former missionary to Far North Queensland’s Kuku Yalanji tribespeople, told the Answers in Genesis ministry in Australia some years ago of a story the elders of the tribe told him, of a creature called Yarru (or Yarrba). The tribe inhabits the rainforest regions, where there are a number of waterholes in which, in earlier days, Yarru was said to live. There is a story of how the Yarru devoured a young maiden. The missionary asked one of the tribe’s artists to paint the story for him. The tribal artist, with very little formal education, had no knowledge of what so-called prehistoric animals looked like, and was drawing only from the descriptions handed down in the ancient stories.
211yarru.jpg
The painting (later donated to Answers in Genesis, and shown at the right) shows a creature with a remarkable resemblance to the extinct plesiosaurus.
European sightings of water monsters also often match this description.11 Most evolutionists, however, find this unacceptable, since they insist such creatures vanished with the dinosaurs over 65 million years ago.
For centuries, the Dharuk people have spoken of the mighty ‘Mirreeulla,’ whose home is the Hawkesbury River near Sydney. Sightings of plesiosaur-like creatures in this river have continued to modern times, with some estimating the creature at up to 15 metres (50 feet) long.
In conclusion

Australia’s Aboriginal heritage is rapidly being lost. Many of the Dreamtime stories still recall events from their history, up to the dispersion at Babel, such as the great Flood.12 There are several traditions which suggest that the ancestors of today’s Aborigines may have had contact with the last few dinosaurian survivors of a rapidly drying continent. The details in the newspaper report of what seems to have been a bipedal dinosaur at Geelong last century seems hard to discount.
Apparent dinosaur sightings by man from centuries past are legion, in the form of dragon legends around the globe.13 This magazine has previously shown photographic evidence of ancient rock drawings of dinosaurs.14
The many Aboriginal accounts, even if only a portion of them have a basis in fact, are consistent with this pattern. Descriptions of dinosaur-like creatures are even found in the Bible (Job 40:15–41:34).
All of this contradicts the evolutionary belief system, which insists that no man has ever seen anything like a dinosaur, since evolutionists claim that these died out millions of years before man appeared.
Man-eating kangaroos … confirming the stories

For many years, Aboriginal stories of ‘savage giant kangaroos that preyed on men’ were dismissed by Europeans as nonsense.15 ‘Everyone knows’ that there can be no such thing as a flesh-eating kangaroo. The truth, however, is otherwise.
Though chiefly a root and fungus eater, today’s rufous bettong (one of the smallest species of kangaroo) is in fact frequently observed to chew on animal bones.16 It is also known on occasion to steal eggs from chicken yards. A related species, the burrowing bettong, will scavenge sheep carcasses.17
These rabbit-sized creatures are too small to prey upon large animals. In the past however, there were ‘giant bettongs’ which weighed an estimated 70 kilograms, and which stood six or seven feet high.17
Known as the propleopine kangaroos, their teeth were more suggestive of carnivores than grazers. Their stout lower incisors were sharp and horizontally aligned, forming ideal stabbing weapons. The premolars were also shaped like great ‘buzz-saw’ blades, strongly serrated and designed for severing tough foodstuffs.17 There seems little doubt that Propleopus oscillans and P. chillagoensis were the wolves of the kangaroo family.
Evolutionists claim they became extinct over 20,000 years ago. If this were true, it is exceedingly unlikely that the oral legends would have survived intact over this period of time. Once again we have a seemingly ‘mythical’ Aboriginal account confirmed by the fossil record, and bringing so-called ‘prehistory’ into line with the Bible’s account of the true history of the world.
</H2>
bunyip.jpg


211yarru.jpg
 
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theVirginian

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Now, someone want to explain the 6000 years thing...
The 6000 (+/-) year bracket starts with the fall of Adam and goes to the present day. People who believe the Earth/universe is 6000 years old have somehow absorbed the creation account into that time frame.

...that everyone and their mother who is anti-evolution uses to down us, like - 'snap'.
I would wager that very few anti-evolutionists believe the Earth is this young.
 
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Lotuspetal_uk

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I haven't studied it in detail, but it is common knowledge that Australopithecus afarensis were the ancestor to homo sapiens.



So no direct connection to humans, but still something that must be said to remind a lot about humans. And this also points back to a common ancestor to both the races.
Have you checked down the route of environmental affects to the human body i.e. post flood variations? It doesn't discount similarities (one would also have to throw into the pot the "accuracy" or not of carbon dating) if the bone structure of a person has been altered due to disease, genetic mutation as a result of drastic climatic change :scratch:

Can't put it better into words than this (sorry! I know you said no links but when I had more time I use to enjoy this site because of questions like yours ;) )

Have a butchers and let us know if it helps.
 
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Bellicus

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Seriously I don't buy the creationism theories. They have been proven wrong again and again. There is no evidence whatsoever for any of the theories. So if anyone want to use them as a explanation that is fine with me, but personally I'm not found of using lies in my views on life. I rather want the lack of a answer, instead of a made up answer.

I think you miss the point: they are between 99.5% and 99.9% identical to us.

The mitochondrial DNA study the BBC referred to says that the common ancestor in the female line of all humans and all Neanderthals is a long way back. That doesn't mean "no connection." How far back is the common ancestor in the female line of you and me?
I only pointed out that neanderthal and homo sapiens is different races. Chimpanzees are about 98% identical to us, but still it is clear that it is a different race. I don't know how far back the common ancestor of neanderthals and chimpanzees and humans is. But why would you call neanderthal a human, and for example not chimpanzees? What makes the difference, and how does this fit into genesis? I can't see a reason to justify calling a creature with 0.5% different DNA more human then a creature with 2% difference.

I suggest you find a good book on this stuff written by a Christian (there are several) and read it. Basically, Genesis tells us "who" and "why", Science tells us "how."
But genesis really do tell "how". That is part of the problem. Cause the "how" don't make sense unless looking on it like it is just some cryptic myth.
 
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rejectreality

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I usually don't like contributing to these sorts of discussions (as I'm not an expert) but I have to throw my lot in with Creationism.

From what I've studied (in a few classes at university) much of what is "known" about these fossil remains seem to be artistic license. The amount of actual fossil is dwarfed by how much scientists have contributed to how they think a skull or bone fragment looked.

I'm also going to have to agree with the "effects over time" argument. A fossil, buried for thousands/millions of years will probably change. If coal can turn into a diamond via pressure, imagine what can happen to a human body. And yes, some of the more complete skeletons certainly look like variations of humans. However, those peoples could have looked that way for any number of reasons: diet, disease, birth defects, in-breading, etc. There are a number of reasons a person may look different than "normal" humans. A use normal very loosely, as there are people in society today who aren't "normal" by scientific standards. People with dwarfism, phocomelia, etc. I would count these people as normal, but I guess their skeletons wouldn't fall under the scientific definition of "normal".

Again, I'm not an expert. I simply find Evolution more questionable than Creationism. Creationism cannot be disproven, as one must first disprove the existence of God.

I hope you can find the right answer,

God bless
 
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Bellicus

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Creationism cannot be disproven, as one must first disprove the existence of God.

Creationism is not about the existence of God. It is a attempt to try to bring creation, as described in genesis, into scientific theories. But the problem is that there is nothing scientific about these theories at all. All of it has been proven wrong, or have lack of evidence showing that it is true. For example the theory of irreducible complexity were proven wrong in the Dover trial, and it is not science because it is not true. And those that continue to tell it is true, without having any proof of this are simply telling lies to try to defend their faith in the God that calls himself "truth". This is something I personally am totally against, and I know there is loads of people that both choose not to believe or loose their faith because they think they will have to defend these lies to be allowed to believe in Jesus.
 
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Catherineanne

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This is something I personally am totally against, and I know there is loads of people that both choose not to believe or loose their faith because they think they will have to defend these lies to be allowed to believe in Jesus.

If there is such a thing as faith so fragile it cannot bear to stand alongside science, then that faith is not worth having. It is built on sand, and will fall at the slightest wave, or storm.

God is truth. There is nothing in science that can disprove that truth, and no scientific truth that is not of God. But there is also nothing in the Bible that tells us to close our minds to what is real, and what is evidenced. We are told to use our minds to love God, and this does not mean closing them to anything we find too hard to believe, sticking our fingers in our ears, singing Lalalalalala, and then saying, 'there is no evidence because I cannot hear or see any'.

There may be much still to be discovered, but the universe is certainly many billions of years old, mankind many millions, and the earth somewhere in between. This does not 'disprove' Genesis at all, because Genesis does not claim to be literal truth neither are we told that believing it is essential to our faith.

The Bible was not written as The Ascent of Man. Neither was The Ascent of Man written to reveal God to his creation.

Allow each to be what it is, no more and no less, and there is nothing to prove or disprove.
 
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Catherineanne

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Mate, evolution is a theory, nothing more than a theory designed to destroy Christian views.

It's all anti-Christ.

Poppycock.

Christian faith of any strength whatever can't be destroyed by science. If anyone has such a fragile faith, then it is not worth having in the first place, because it is built on the sand of denial, fear and reactionism, rather than the Rock who is Christ, in whom is all truth.
 
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