Has Literalism Become a Corruption?

muddleglum

Junior Member
May 1, 2015
248
31
✟8,060.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Married
WOW. all I can say is ... Wow.
Have you really read the NT? Mark's gospel? ALL KINDS of "esoteric hidden meanings" in there.

I think it depends on what you mean by "esoteric hidden meanings." This is how Der Alter seems to think of that:
But an example of hidden meaning, found in scripture, which I vehemently reject. There is a certain, recently moved, controversial theology group which says the "stick of Joseph" in Ezek 37:16-19 refers to the 19th century founder of their sect and the book on which he founded the sect. They justify their interpretation by pointing to the parables, etc. in the Bible.

So, it looks more like a problem in definitions. "Literal" itself has a pretty squishy meaning in the wild, too, as you might have experienced yourself.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,281
20,280
US
✟1,476,230.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I'd say that common sense plays, at least, a small part. For example, if I say, "I am holding a red apple in my hand." That cannot mean, "I have a green pear on my foot." Since neither Jesus nor any NT writer found esoteric hidden meanings when they quoted the OT, then neither should I. And since they didn't find any hidden meaning in the OT, without some really good evidence, which I have yet to see, I wouldn't think they included any hidden meanings in the NT.

Let me Google that for you:

http://www.openbible.info/topics/mystery
 
Upvote 0

Norah63

Newbie
Jun 29, 2011
4,225
430
everlasting hills
✟14,569.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
many a preacher take the parables and uncover the truths they have found in them.
truth isnt always hidden so that it cannot be found, rather like love, the more you give the more you get.
how many levels of love there be in any scripture is for the seeker to expierence , imo.
 
Upvote 0
Dec 8, 2012
469
40
✟15,785.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I think it depends on what you mean by "esoteric hidden meanings." This is how Der Alter seems to think of that:

"...an example of hidden meaning, found in scripture, which I vehemently reject. There is a certain, recently moved, controversial theology group which says the "stick of Joseph" in Ezek 37:16-19 refers to the 19th century founder of their sect and the book on which he founded the sect. They justify their interpretation by pointing to the parables, etc. in the Bible."

So, it looks more like a problem in definitions. "Literal" itself has a pretty squishy meaning in the wild, too, as you might have experienced yourself.
For my part, I think I made it pretty clear in my posts that my criticism of literalism--or as I call the type of belief Der Alter parrots, "harsh literalism"--is not of naïve wooden literalism but that practiced by conservative evangelicals today. I provided a number of quotes identifying the sort of literalist beliefs I think are problematic. A few years ago this kind of belief was most often identified by the negative expression 'fundamentalist', but the term doesn't seem to be used as often these days.

DA's "vehement" rejection of hidden meaning is a mainstay of the corruption of grammatical-historical literalism. He and other harsh literalists must vehemently reject any meaning beyond the historical/moral because the champions of this form of belief have established that all such "hidden" meanings don't exist and are products of fanciful imaginations. How men with letters after their names can promote such obviously circular thinking as this is a great mystery to me, except that this makes sense as a method of control. Why control what God is allowed to say in Scripture? Could be several reasons. Doing so creates an organized field of interest, a 'good old boy's club' into which one must invest in order to be a "real" believer. (I well understand the power religion can assert on a membership having grown up attending Catholic schools in the 60's) Once established, benefits like tenure in institutions upholding the belief, recognition and standing in the literalist community, desire for as 'black and white' a faith as can be found--we automatically gravitate to uncomplicated beliefs if available, etc.

Surely you can see that the authenticity of a purportedly Biblical belief system that automatically slams the door to any possibility of hidden meaning beyond the most obvious--and this concerning the most symbolic book on earth--should be held in suspicion? Although there are problems in definition in any discussion of literalism, difficulties in semantics of the expression itself don't hold a candle to the problems the system of belief imposes on an intellectually honest pursuit of truth.
 
Upvote 0

Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old.
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
28,578
6,064
EST
✟993,188.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

And your point is? Were you to actually read my earlier posts in this thread I acknowledge the use of figurative language in the Bible. There are clearly identified types, allegories, parables, etc. My objection is to heretofore unknown figurative language which, oh by the way, just happens to support the assumptions/presuppositions of the person who conveniently found the "figure of speech." I gave an example of this type of convenient figurative language. A certain recently moved controversial theology group erroneously assumes that the "stick of Joseph" in Ezekiel 7:19 refers to the founder of their group and the book on which the group based.
 
Upvote 0

muddleglum

Junior Member
May 1, 2015
248
31
✟8,060.00
Faith
Anabaptist
Marital Status
Married
Surely you can see that the authenticity of a purportedly Biblical belief system that automatically slams the door to any possibility of hidden meaning beyond the most obvious...
True. I've been called down often enough. I've also noticed that it also shuts the door on the logically obvious if it hadn't been traditionally taught.

Although there are problems in definition in any discussion of literalism, difficulties in semantics of the expression itself don't hold a candle to the problems the system of belief imposes on an intellectually honest pursuit of truth.
I think that you've nailed something when you call it a "system of belief." Actually it can be a seriously dangerous shortcut to "works" orientation. "I have this list of easy to follow rules to know what God wants. Now I can go on with my life."

Basically, we have to grow in Christ for a while before we can start understanding how He thinks.

Abide in Christ,
 
Upvote 0
Dec 8, 2012
469
40
✟15,785.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
...I acknowledge the use of figurative language in the Bible. There are clearly identified types, allegories, parables, etc. My objection is to heretofore unknown figurative language which, oh by the way, just happens to support the assumptions/presuppositions of the person who conveniently found the "figure of speech." I gave an example of this type of convenient figurative language. A certain recently moved controversial theology group erroneously assumes that the "stick of Joseph" in Ezekiel 7:19 refers to the founder of their group and the book on which the group based. googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1431698694306-1'); });
All you really do is offer parrotlike excuses for unbelief DA. You're not defending something noble, you're attacking something you refuse to understand or even consider.

In another thread I patiently posted logical arguments with significant Scriptural proof as a foundation for warranted belief different than yours which borrows heavily from figurative meaning in Scripture not identifiable by literalist rules. You stated that you refused to even read it. You refuse to even consider evidence! To this day, all you do here is pound on those who believe differently than you with your tired, trite sayings and avalanches of copy-n-paste quotations of those who think as you do as "support".

Your example above is trivial. Throwing out extreme or obvious representations is weak evidence for any case. Further, your objection to interpretations that "support the assumptions/presuppositions of the person who conveniently found the 'figure of speech'" is a wonderful model of superficial logic. If a deeper understanding from Scripture is granted "A" from God, "A" naturally tries to fit what was shown him into his existing belief system to find coherence and congruity. When "A" then attempts to share the modification of his system with someone ("B") with a closed mind, "B" will only be willing to see the episode as an attempt by to justify what "A" wants to believe instead of what "A" was led to believe. "B" thus, by virtue of his unwillingness to consider any system outside his own, automatically deems the testimony of "A" (or anyone with similar claims) be contrived or corrupt. I.e., "B" has no method in place to either falsify or affirm the belief system of another because according to the belief system of "B" all other belief systems not in agreement with it are automatically wrong.

I've pointed out the apparent circularity of your attacks as a natural byproduct of grammatical-historical literalism several times. You've never once replied to this specific charge. If you haven't yet replied because you're still working on a well reasoned response, then my suspicion that you are unwilling or unable to engage in intellectually honest discussion is unfounded. If you haven't responded because the circularity of your method is true and you are hoping the subject will be dropped, then how close a friend are you to truth? Are you as intellectually honest in your posts as you claim to be DA?
 
Upvote 0