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Paul is not overturning the Torah, rather, he no longer recognizes the authority of the rulers of the people in his day. I understand that this is not something MJ's are prone to hear, but it is surely the case. Paul teaches the new Way of understanding the Torah taught by the Teacher of Righteousness whose Testimony we now read in the Gospel accounts and his Gospel is no different from that Testimony. Some of these things may seem to be verging on the offensive to some MJ's, but please know that any offense is not what is intended herein, rather, the goal is to present the truth as straightforwardly and precisely as possible, without watering anything down to the point of trying to hide or avoid what may be considered unpleasant to some who may happen to read what is presented herein.
With that said, I have labeled this thread MJ Only because there is a companion thread in the "Sabbath and the Law" Board. If you are not an MJ, but wish to discuss or debate the material herein, you are free to respond at the following link:
Handwritten Dogmas and the Letter (Sabbath and the Law Forum Board).
The following translator understands the following passage quite well, even to the point that it is the Body of Meshiah which is to judge regarding what is mentioned in the text, meaning that the word order, (which is not all that important in Greek, but more critical in English translations), is not properly rendered in most if not all English translations. The phrase, "the Body of Meshiah" is more properly placed at the beginning of verse sixteen. This is why so many translators find the need to either add to this statement or change the meaning of soma from body to substance: for it does not read properly in English without adding to it or redefining words so as to make sense of it, and the reason why is because it does not belong where it is generally placed in English translations, (the end of verse seventeen).
Colossians 2:13-22 TS2009 W/Footnotes
13 And you, being dead in your trespassesc and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, Footnote: cEph 2:1.
14 having blotted out that which was written by hand against us – by the dogmasd – which stood against us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the stake. Footnote: dDogmas - also see Col 2:20 and Eph 2:15.
15 Having stripped the principalities and the authorities, He made a public display of them, having prevailed over them in it.
16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –
17 which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.e Footnote: eThe Body of Messiah is to give ruling on all matters, not the outsiders! See also Mat 18:15-20.
18 Let no one deprive you of the prize, one who takes delight in false humility and worship of messengers, taking his stand on what he has not seen, puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the Body – nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments – grows with the growth of Elohim.
20 If, then, you died with Messiah from the elementary mattersf of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to dogmas:d Footnotes: dDogmas - also see Col 2:14 and Eph 2:15. fSee Col 2:8 and Gal 4:3 and Gal 4:9.
21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle” –
22 which are all to perish with use – according to the commands and teachings of men?g Isa 29:13. Footnote: gSee also Mat 15:8-9, Mar 7:6-7.
The translator footnote for verse seventeen rightly says that it is the Body of Meshiah that is to rule on all matters, not outsiders: but it appears that the translator misses one thing, that is, the meaning of "the Body of Meshiah" in this context, and almost no doubt the Body of Meshiah in this context concerns the Tanak Body of the Meshiah because he is the Word. The Tanak Body of Meshiah was raised up in Matthew 27:51-53, and entered into the holy city, which means Yerushalem of above, not Yerushalem of below, (see Hebrews 12:22-24).
Thus it is the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the Tanak Body of Meshiah, which is to be our judge in the matters mentioned in that portion of the text above where this is mentioned. If therefore we correct the word order, as it appears to be meant in the Greek text, it should read and be rendered in the following manner.
Colossians 2:13-22
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he has made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
14 having blotted out the handwriting in dogmas that were against us, which were contrary to us: and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the stake:
15 having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no one but the body of Meshiah therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new month or the Shabbat:
17 which are a shadow of the things to come.
18 Let no man rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshiping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and bands, increases with the increase of Elohim.
20 If you died with Meshiah from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to dogmas,
21 Handle not, Taste not, Touch not,
22 (all of which things are to perish with the using), after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Nowhere in the scripture is the Torah ever called dogmas, and Paul explains at the end of the portion above that he speaks of the commandments and teachings or doctrines of men: that is surely not speaking of the Torah. However dogma does appear in the Septuagint, and is always used for edicts, decrees, dogmas, and proclamations from kings and rulers. In the sense of the Colossians passage herein above it is no doubt the rulers of the people, the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, and their handwritten dogmas and decrees which were against the people, and contrary to us all: for their interpretations of the Torah were based on a natural minded, outward, and physical understanding of the Torah, which we know from Romans 7:14 is spiritual, just as Elohim Himself is Spirit, (John 4:24), so His Word is Spirit, and likewise the Testimony of the Meshiah is Spirit, (John 6:63).
The handwritten dogmas and decrees of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were binding upon the whole nation, and which were contrary and against the people, are the same "letter" which Paul says kills.
The letter which kills is not the Torah. The letter which kills concerns the handwritten dogmas of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which Paul speaks about in Colossians 2:14. Meshiah indeed triumphed over them and their carnal minded rulings, dogmas, and decrees, all over the place in the Gospel accounts for all to see: making a show of them and their hypocrisy openly before all the people, which is one of the main reasons why the rulers of the people had him killed.
With that said, I have labeled this thread MJ Only because there is a companion thread in the "Sabbath and the Law" Board. If you are not an MJ, but wish to discuss or debate the material herein, you are free to respond at the following link:
Handwritten Dogmas and the Letter (Sabbath and the Law Forum Board).
The following translator understands the following passage quite well, even to the point that it is the Body of Meshiah which is to judge regarding what is mentioned in the text, meaning that the word order, (which is not all that important in Greek, but more critical in English translations), is not properly rendered in most if not all English translations. The phrase, "the Body of Meshiah" is more properly placed at the beginning of verse sixteen. This is why so many translators find the need to either add to this statement or change the meaning of soma from body to substance: for it does not read properly in English without adding to it or redefining words so as to make sense of it, and the reason why is because it does not belong where it is generally placed in English translations, (the end of verse seventeen).
Colossians 2:13-22 TS2009 W/Footnotes
13 And you, being dead in your trespassesc and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, Footnote: cEph 2:1.
14 having blotted out that which was written by hand against us – by the dogmasd – which stood against us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the stake. Footnote: dDogmas - also see Col 2:20 and Eph 2:15.
15 Having stripped the principalities and the authorities, He made a public display of them, having prevailed over them in it.
16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating or in drinking, or in respect of a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths –
17 which are a shadow of what is to come – but the Body of the Messiah.e Footnote: eThe Body of Messiah is to give ruling on all matters, not the outsiders! See also Mat 18:15-20.
18 Let no one deprive you of the prize, one who takes delight in false humility and worship of messengers, taking his stand on what he has not seen, puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the Body – nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments – grows with the growth of Elohim.
20 If, then, you died with Messiah from the elementary mattersf of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to dogmas:d Footnotes: dDogmas - also see Col 2:14 and Eph 2:15. fSee Col 2:8 and Gal 4:3 and Gal 4:9.
21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle” –
22 which are all to perish with use – according to the commands and teachings of men?g Isa 29:13. Footnote: gSee also Mat 15:8-9, Mar 7:6-7.
The translator footnote for verse seventeen rightly says that it is the Body of Meshiah that is to rule on all matters, not outsiders: but it appears that the translator misses one thing, that is, the meaning of "the Body of Meshiah" in this context, and almost no doubt the Body of Meshiah in this context concerns the Tanak Body of the Meshiah because he is the Word. The Tanak Body of Meshiah was raised up in Matthew 27:51-53, and entered into the holy city, which means Yerushalem of above, not Yerushalem of below, (see Hebrews 12:22-24).
Thus it is the Torah, Prophets, and Writings, the Tanak Body of Meshiah, which is to be our judge in the matters mentioned in that portion of the text above where this is mentioned. If therefore we correct the word order, as it appears to be meant in the Greek text, it should read and be rendered in the following manner.
Colossians 2:13-22
13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he has made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
14 having blotted out the handwriting in dogmas that were against us, which were contrary to us: and he has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the stake:
15 having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no one but the body of Meshiah therefore judge you in food, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new month or the Shabbat:
17 which are a shadow of the things to come.
18 Let no man rob you of your prize by a voluntary humility and worshiping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and bands, increases with the increase of Elohim.
20 If you died with Meshiah from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to dogmas,
21 Handle not, Taste not, Touch not,
22 (all of which things are to perish with the using), after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Nowhere in the scripture is the Torah ever called dogmas, and Paul explains at the end of the portion above that he speaks of the commandments and teachings or doctrines of men: that is surely not speaking of the Torah. However dogma does appear in the Septuagint, and is always used for edicts, decrees, dogmas, and proclamations from kings and rulers. In the sense of the Colossians passage herein above it is no doubt the rulers of the people, the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, and their handwritten dogmas and decrees which were against the people, and contrary to us all: for their interpretations of the Torah were based on a natural minded, outward, and physical understanding of the Torah, which we know from Romans 7:14 is spiritual, just as Elohim Himself is Spirit, (John 4:24), so His Word is Spirit, and likewise the Testimony of the Meshiah is Spirit, (John 6:63).
The handwritten dogmas and decrees of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which were binding upon the whole nation, and which were contrary and against the people, are the same "letter" which Paul says kills.
The letter which kills is not the Torah. The letter which kills concerns the handwritten dogmas of the Sanhedrin, Elders, Chief Priests, Pharisees, Sadducees, and Scribes, which Paul speaks about in Colossians 2:14. Meshiah indeed triumphed over them and their carnal minded rulings, dogmas, and decrees, all over the place in the Gospel accounts for all to see: making a show of them and their hypocrisy openly before all the people, which is one of the main reasons why the rulers of the people had him killed.