God's Ways

[Bungle_Bear]

Saul of Tarsus was so affected by God's mysterious ways, he became the Apostle Paul.

Muhammad was so affected by God's mysterious ways, he became the central prophet Islam.

Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain were so affected by God's mysterious ways, they set up the Spanish Inquisition.

Joseph Smith was so affected by God's mysterious ways he founded Mormonism.

God truly does work in mysterious ways, doesn't he?

 

[AV1611VET]

Muhammad was so affected by God's mysterious ways, he became the central prophet Islam.

That's a negative.

Ferdinand and Isabella of Spain were so affected by God's mysterious ways, they set up the Spanish Inquisition.

That's a negative.

Joseph Smith was so affected by God's mysterious ways he founded Mormonism.

That's a negative.

God truly does work in mysterious ways, doesn't he?

That's affirmative.

Re the Spanish Inquisition, were those atrocities done in spite of the Bible, or with respect to It?

In your opinion -- not theirs.

I say they were done in spite of the Bible.

What say you?

 

[Kylie]

Did you see the series of questions that God asked Job?

Some seventy questions, almost all, if not every one, having to do with His creation.

Saul of Tarsus was so affected by God's mysterious ways, he became the Apostle Paul.

I'm talking about the questions that people ask believers that believers don't generally have good answers to.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

That's a negative.That's a negative.That's a negative.

Those are pretty much historically certain, so we can safely ignore your refusal to accept them.

Re the Spanish Inquisition, were those atrocities done in spite of the Bible, or with respect to It?

In your opinion -- not theirs.

I say they were done in spite of the Bible.

What say you?

They say it was because of it. I have no reason to doubt them - after all, they were being advised by churchmen. Who are you to say they were lying? After all, God moves in mysterious ways.

 

[AV1611VET]

They say it was because of it. I have no reason to doubt them - after all, they were being advised by churchmen.

Advised by churchmen ≠ the Bible commands it.

And not knowing the Bible causes others to sympathize with the Crusaders.

Didn't Jesus say Jerusalem would be occupied by the gentiles until He returns?

It's Jesus job ... not the job of crusaders ... to rid Jerusalem of the gentiles.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Advised by churchmen ≠ the Bible commands it.

AV1611VET says it ≠ the Bible says it. Nice impasse, you paint yourself into a corner far too easily.

Didn't Jesus say Jerusalem would be occupied by the gentiles until He returns?

It's Jesus job ... not the job of crusaders ... to rid Jerusalem of the gentiles.

You have no idea what the Spanish Inquisition was, do you? FYI it had nothing to do with Crusades or gentiles.

 

[AV1611VET]

You have no idea what the Spanish Inquisition was, do you? FYI it had nothing to do with Crusades or gentiles.

Ah ... so true.

Got my wires crossed.

Re this Inquisition:

In the beginning, the Inquisition dealt only with Christian heretics and did not interfere with the affairs of Jews. However, disputes about Maimonides’ books (which addressed the synthesis of Judaism and other cultures) provided a pretext for harassing Jews and, in 1242, the Inquisition condemned the Talmud and burned thousands of volumes. In 1288, the first mass burning of Jews on the stake took place in France.

SOURCE

Was this done in spite of the Bible, or with respect to It?

In your opinion this time.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Ah ... so true.

Got my wires crossed.

Re this Inquisition:

SOURCE

That's not the Spanish Inquisition.

Was this done in spite of the Bible, or with respect to It?

In your opinion this time.

I already answered that question, and in the last few hours I've not received any information which would cause me to change my answer. I am more convinced, though, that you don't understand what we're supposed to be discussing.

 

[AV1611VET]

I am more convinced, though, that you don't understand what we're supposed to be discussing.

Yet you answered it "in the last few hours" ... hmmm.

Whatever atrocity you care to bring up, lets us know if you think it was done in spite of, or with respect to, the Bible.

And since you probably won't, I'll just take them with a modicum of sodium chloride.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Yet you answered it "in the last few hours" ... hmmm.

Whatever atrocity you care to bring up, lets us know if you think it was done in spite of, or with respect to, the Bible.

And since you probably won't, I'll just take them with a modicum of sodium chloride.

God Works In Mysterious Ways, but only with Scotsmen, right?

 

[Phred]

And since you probably won't, I'll just take them with a modicum of sodium chloride.

And once again the guy who tells science to "take a hike" can't help but use scientific terms.

Show me where "sodium chloride" is in the Bible and I'll buy you a donkey.

And just to be crystal clear. The Inquisition was carried out with the intention of following the Bible. For the Bible. Because of the Bible. By men who believed in YOUR God. For YOUR God. In the name of Jesus Christ. Trying to deny this because it's uncomfortable for you is just too darned bad.

 

[Soyeong]

For those of you who can't sleep at night without knowing how God did it, I present these two verses just for you:

Job 9:10 Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number.

Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out.

Sleep tight!

The Way of the Lord or God’s Ways are described as being righteous and just (Genesis 18:19), righteous, blameless, merciful, pure, humble, light, perfect, true, liberty, and gentleness (2 Samuel 22:21-37), delightful (Psalms 37:23), and everlasting (Habakkuk 3:6), merciful, gracious, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, forgiving, just (Exodus 34:6-7), love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22-23). But what specifically are they? In Exodus 33:13, Moses asked God to show him His ways that he and the nation might know Him and find favor in God’s sight. These verses describe the Mosaic Law as God’s instructions for how to walk in His ways:

“Only be very careful to observe the commandment and the law that Moses the servant of the Lord commanded you, to love the Lord your God, and to walk in all his ways and to keep his commandments and to cling to him and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.”
– Joshua 22:5

“When David’s time to die drew near, he commanded Solomon his son, saying, “I am about to go the way of all the earth. Be strong, and show yourself a man, and keep the charge of the Lord your God, walking in his ways and keeping his statutes, his commandments, his rules, and his testimonies, as it is written in the Law of Moses, that you may prosper in all that you do and wherever you turn,”
– 1 Kings 2:1-3

“Make me to know your ways, O Lord; teach me your paths. Lead me in your truth and teach me, for you are the God of my salvation; for you I wait all the day long. Remember your mercy, O Lord, and your steadfast love, for they have been from of old. Remember not the sins of my youth or my transgressions; according to your steadfast love remember me, for the sake of your goodness, O Lord! Good and upright is the Lord; therefore he instructs sinners in the way. He leads the humble in what is right, and teaches the humble his way. All the paths of the Lord are steadfast love and faithfulness, for those who keep his covenant and his testimonies.”
– Psalms 25:4-10

“Bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is within me, bless his holy name! Bless the Lord, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, 3 who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases, 4 who redeems your life from the pit, who crowns you with steadfast love and mercy, who satisfies you with good so that your youth is renewed like the eagle’s. The Lord works righteousness and justice for all who are oppressed. He made known his ways to Moses, his acts to the people of Israel. The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love.”
– Psalms 103:1-8

“Blessed are those whose way is blameless, who walk in the law of the Lord! Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart, who also do no wrong, but walk in his ways! You have commanded your precepts to be kept diligently. Oh that my ways may be steadfast in keeping your statutes! Then I shall not be put to shame, having my eyes fixed on all your commandments. I will praise you with an upright heart, when I learn your righteous rules. I will keep your statutes; do not utterly forsake me!”
– Psalms 119:1-8

“It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and shall be lifted up above the hills; and all the nations shall flow to it, 3 and many peoples shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.”
– Isaiah 2:2-3

Who handed Jacob over to become loot, and Israel to the plunderers? Was it not the Lord, against whom we have sinned? For they would not follow his ways; they did not obey his law.”
– Isaiah 42:24

“So shall you know that I have sent this command to you, that my covenant with Levi may stand, says the Lord of hosts. My covenant with him was one of life and peace, and I gave them to him. It was a covenant of fear, and he feared me. He stood in awe of my name. True instruction was in his mouth, and no wrong was found on his lips. He walked with me in peace and uprightness, and he turned many from iniquity. For the lips of a priest should guard knowledge, and people should seek instruction from his mouth, for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts. But you have turned aside from the way. You have caused many to stumble by your instruction. You have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says the Lord of hosts, and so I make you despised and abased before all the people, inasmuch as you do not keep my ways but show partiality in your instruction.”
– Malachi 2:4-9

To save space, all of these verses equate obeying God’s commands with walking in His ways: Deuteronomy 5:32-33, Deuteronomy 8:6, Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Deuteronomy 19:9, Deuteronomy 26:16-19, Deuteronomy 28:9, Deuteronomy 30:15-16, 1 Kings 3:14, 1 Kings 8:57-58, 1 Kings 11:33, 1 Kings 11:38, Judges 2:16-23 and Jeremiah 6:16-19.

So while I think most Christians when asked would affirm that we should walk in God’s ways and would deny that we should walk in obedience to the Mosaic Law, the conundrum is that the Mosaic Law is what teaches us how walk in God’s ways. If we were to look at the life of someone who walked in God’s ways by expressing His character traits and were to compare them with the life of someone who lived in complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, then we would not be able to tell the difference because both would look like the example that Christ set for us to follow. In other words, Jesus expressed the fruits of the Spirit through his actions and that that look like was complete obedience to the Mosaic Law, so that is what it should look like when he is living in us. Our sanctification is about being made to be more like Christ, to have and to express His character traits, and to be fully restored back into God’s image.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I'm not sure why this thread continues in its present place. It never had anything to do with evolution or creationist challenges to evolution or the genesis creation story. Now it's devolved into pointless bible quotes and preaching.

 

[Ophiolite]

I'm not sure why this thread continues in its present place. It never had anything to do with evolution or creationist challenges to evolution or the genesis creation story. Now it's devolved into pointless bible quotes and preaching.

I understand that is a requirement once a thread exceeds five and a half pages.

 

[driewerf]

Klebold & Harris gave us a piece of reality, while going against the Bible's moral compass.

Is the Bible wrong in condemning what they did?

The bible didn't condemn what they did.
The bible was written thousands of years before this happened.
What you are doing is just retroactively interpret the bible in the light of "recent" events. It's not the bible condemning K&H, it's you (and me too, though I don't do it on biblical ground).

 

[driewerf]

Oh, wow.

So the Bible criticizing science is "inane;" but science criticizing the Bible rates a "depends"?

I haven't seen the bible criticize science. I have never seen the bible walk to a pulpit, take the microphone and speak. Or I haven't seen the bible sitting at a computer and smash the keyboard.
I know of christians doing that. But not the bible.

By the way, I haven't seen "science" doing that either. I have seen science minded people doing that, but not "science".

 

[driewerf]

Do you think it's just coincidental that scientists and those who adhere to the scientific method not only are good at challenging Christians on their beliefs, but are good at ridiculing them?

Even changing the terminology in the Bible into sterile, non-sacred terms?

Examples:
calling creation "poofing"

Not a term used in the scientific literature not in textbooks, not in papers, not in journals or documentaries. Some condescending atheist might use it in the Youtube comment section, or here i a discussion, but it is not used in any scientific literature.

calling miracles "magic"

Not a term used in the scientific literature not in textbooks, not in papers, not in journals or documentaries. Some condescending atheist might use it in the Youtube comment section, or here in a discussion, but it is not used in any scientific literature.

calling a child in the womb a "fetus"

This term is used in the scientific literature. But it just describes a stage of development. For humans, between the stage of embryo until birth.
Do you also object the term embryo? Toddler? Pubescent?
I use for professional reasons terms like calf, heifer, freemartin, primiparous. Are these non-sacred too?

defining a martyr as someone who died knowing what he died for was a lie

I have never seen anyone define martyr specifically as dying for a lie.

That's all just coincidental, is it?

No, it's not a coincidence. It's you misrepresenting what you are arguing against.

 

[Ophiolite]

I have never seen anyone define martyr specifically as dying for a lie.

I have certainly seen members here post that a martyr is dying for a lie. (Perhaps it was one member posting the same thought multiple times.) If one considers the Christian faith is flawed in its core claims, one might colloquially describe this as a lie and so the statement would be accurate from the POV of the poster; undiplomatic, but accurate.

 

[driewerf]

I have certainly seen members here post that a martyr is dying for a lie. (Perhaps it was one member posting the same thought multiple times.) If one considers the Christian faith is flawed in its core claims, one might colloquially describe this as a lie and so the statement would be accurate from the POV of the poster; undiplomatic, but accurate.

I can understand that in a discussion let's say the Japanese kamikaze pilots dies thinking the emperor was a god and that that is a lie (or any other example of martyrs). But AV1611VET claims that "science" defines martyrs as dying for a lie. That's a trumpian stretch of the truth.