God is not necessary for our Universe to exist?

Dorothea

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God is not necessary for our Universe to exist?
27.06.2011

Renowned astrophysicist Stephen Hawking has recently stated that God is not necessary for our Universe to exist and that Heaven is a "fairy story." As an Orthodox Christian physicist, I must disagree. Science seeks, via physical observation, to discern the mechanisms governing the Natural world. Science cannot experiment outside of our Universe which constitutes the realm of metaphysics and religion. By understanding these physical laws (e.g. quantum mechanics), we can better predict our Universe's evolution in time and, so the reasoning goes, predict "simpler" events such as stock market crashes, global warming, and other nonlinear phenomena.

The Universe, in Hawking's view, created itself out of nothing because Natural laws existed before the Big Bang and the Universe is merely obeying immutable laws that have somehow existed before, during, and after time. This is similar to a clock ticking without an outside operator (as long as its spring is wound i.e. has energy, who winds the clock is irrelevant in this vein of thinking).

In Hawking's view, despite the infinitely possible values of electron charge, the speed of light, Planck's constant, proton mass, etc. (which all couple with the four fundamental forces and which were "just right" to enable life to evolve), the Universe arrived in its' present form as an accident of nothingness because of gravity and the other three fundamental forces (electromagnetism, the weak and strong nuclear forces) that existed before the universe.

Human beings, are merely assemblies of quantum particles - robotic computers - capable of rational, linear, and scientific thought - and somehow also capable of irrational, nonlinear, and "emotional" thoughts (even love) which drive many to irrationally believe in a supernatural God as an antidote to the "scary" "darkness" and to seek purpose to our "accidental" and thereby ultimately meaningless existence.

Though Prof. Hawking's views that God is not necessary for the creation and operation of the Universe are certainly feasible, science alone cannot prove or disprove them. Science is unable to determine what happened before the dawn of time when just before the Big Bang, all of the energy in the Universe was widely believed to be a singularity in space and time.

How the Universe has been able to expand into nothing (just as a balloon expands into the atmosphere) and what existed before the Big Bang are unanswerable questions for scientists because we cannot perform experiments outside of the boundary conditions of spacetime.

Hawking is correct that we can't prove God's existence but neither can we prove God's nonexistence. God, the Creator of our universe, is likely outside of our Universe just as Michelangelo existed outside of his famous paintings (and perhaps He may even exist inside it as well as a four dimensional projection of infinity).

As such, we cannot "prove" God's existence within the framework of Natural physical laws that govern our current Universe. However, as one can study a well constructed sports car and, not knowing its' designer, discern intelligence and beauty associated with the machine, so is it with our Universe. The more I learn about the amazing ways that the physical world works, the more inspired I am that there must be a higher intelligence subtly behind it. To me, science and religion are complementary - not contradictory endeavors of the human intellect and it is unfortunate that so much effort is squandered in conflict between religious extremists and atheists. God's existence cannot be proven within the framework of natural laws - we can only have faith that God exists. There can be no rational debate about God because it really boils down to matters of faith.

Some of the world's greatest physicists such as Nikola Tesla, Isaac Newton, and Albert Einstein believed in a God. Deeply religious Newton was labeled a "heretic" in part because he advocated the notion of an "invisible" gravitational field that governed the celestial motion of planets around the sun and beyond.

In fact, physicists' belief that physical laws pervade and govern the entire Universe is a matter of faith as we have never even visited our star's nearest neighbor (Alfa Centauri) to prove this let alone visited the other 100 billion stars in our galaxy that is one out of an estimated 100 billion galaxies in our mostly empty and astonishingly vast Universe.

Sadly for humanity, we find that there are powerful and ubiquitous efforts to discredit religion to create a "new" world order in the spirit of "worship of the Golden Calf" and thus rescind any moral foundation of society and thus bring us to the natural laws of the jungle (i.e. chaos/might makes right).

There are also efforts from some "religious" extremists to convert everyone to their religion or slaughter those who do not subscribe to the tenets of their faith such as the efforts of the Croatian Catholic Church and the Vatican to convert over 200,000 Serbian Orthodox Christians to Catholicism and slaughter roughly one million Serbs, Jews and Gypsies during WWII. These extremists use religion as a political tool and are no more religious than atheists.

We should devote our energies toward seeking truth/performing experiments - delving into the infinite natural and spiritual mysteries of this material world. We should also respect the right to disagree on matters of faith rather than battling one another on issues that cannot be resolved within our short and physically-constrained but infinitely mysterious existence.

Michael Pravica, Ph.D.
USA

God is not necessary for our Universe to exist? - English pravda.ru
 

TheCunctator

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Stephen Hawking's theory just doesn't make sense.

We would never assume that a beautiful painting found on the ground made itself, nor would we assume that that an ancient building unearthed from the ground created itself.

If we find the notion of these objects and buildings spontaneously appearing from nothing, how more ludicrous is it to assume that the universe, something infinitely more complex than a painting or a building, could make itself appear from nothing? It really doesn't make any logical sense.

I think that in itself is a huge leap of faith.
 
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While I think Hawking is wrong, I think it's far too easy to be disparaging of his philosophy without understanding the complex physics behind it. He isn't an idiot, and his philosophy is based upon his decades of scientific research. It may be wrong, but it's certainly worth engaging with, and not simply resorting to shoddy rehashes of outdated design arguments.
 
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SeraphimSarov

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I am wary of people slipping into the appeal to authority fallacy when discussing Mr. Hawking. Surely he is one of the greatest geniuses ever to grace this planet, but he is not infallible. He has admitted to being wrong in the past. And whether one understands the complex physics or not, again, what he is claiming in regards to the origins of our universe is not falsifiable and thus not scientific; therefore, he is going on faith, just like we do. His faith is fashionable because it discounts the idea of a God that science can't find, but that doesn't make it correct.
 
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Protoevangel

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Where Prof Hawking is coming from is a facinating subject, M-Theory. His fundamental flaw is in mistaking "chance" to be the cause.

"Science predicts that many different kinds of universe will be spontaneously created out of nothing. It is a matter of chance which we are in."

So, in replacing God with chance, he thinks he can explain everything without God. As rich of a mind as he has, it is sad that he can be so foolish. I pray that he comes to see his error.

May God forgive me as well, for the ways I blind myself to the obvious.
 
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Dorothea

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Good responses, folks.

I've heard that it takes more effort to NOT believe than it does to believe. Don't know how true that is. Atheists have their own "religion," is what I've heard. And I can see that to a certain extent.
 
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Good responses, folks.

I've heard that it takes more effort to NOT believe than it does to believe. Don't know how true that is. Atheists have their own "religion," is what I've heard. And I can see that to a certain extent.

I'm sure that's the case with Christians/Jews/Muslims who become atheists for one reason or another, but I think nowadays there are enough atheists who have never believed in God, for whom atheism is their default state, and who probably see no reason ever to think otherwise.
 
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SeraphimSarov

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I've heard that it takes more effort to NOT believe than it does to believe. Don't know how true that is. Atheists have their own "religion," is what I've heard. And I can see that to a certain extent.

It depends entirely on who you're talking to, really. For my part, as an atheist, I did everything possible to eschew faith, discarding it as the crutch of the weak and irrational. Of course, the idea that reason and logic trump all is an a priori assumption that is itself based ultimately in faith, so I suppose you can call it what you like. However, I take issue with the idea (well, I'd call it a platitude) that it takes more effort not to believe than to believe... I'd have a much easier time if I dropped the idea of God again and quit struggling with him. However, the resulting existential nihilism is soul-crushing -- perhaps that is what the aforementioned platitude is referring to.
 
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TheCunctator

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Good responses, folks.

I've heard that it takes more effort to NOT believe than it does to believe. Don't know how true that is. Atheists have their own "religion," is what I've heard. And I can see that to a certain extent.

I think it's very true.

People just assume today that there is a God. Yes we live in a Christian culture (sort of), but in reality God is hardly ever discussed. But people naturally assume that there is one. People don't always just feel agnostic or atheist. They make the conscious choice to become one after being a theist their whole lives. The exceptions probably would be people who were brought up in already atheist households where the parents emphasize atheism.

Theism is the default. Not atheism. So yes, you have to work harder to think as an atheist. Because you have to twist so much logic just to assist your conclusion. It's kind of like how, when heliocentrism was beginning to replace geocentrism, people make calculations just in order to help support Ptolomey's theory until the obvious was irrefutable.
 
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Dorothea

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I'm sure that's the case with Christians/Jews/Muslims who become atheists for one reason or another, but I think nowadays there are enough atheists who have never believed in God, for whom atheism is their default state, and who probably see no reason ever to think otherwise.
I see. Well, I can understand that. So, no outside influences had anything to do with their views on not believing in God or a "god?"
 
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I am wary of people slipping into the appeal to authority fallacy when discussing Mr. Hawking. Surely he is one of the greatest geniuses ever to grace this planet, but he is not infallible. He has admitted to being wrong in the past. And whether one understands the complex physics or not, again, what he is claiming in regards to the origins of our universe is not falsifiable and thus not scientific; therefore, he is going on faith, just like we do. His faith is fashionable because it discounts the idea of a God that science can't find, but that doesn't make it correct.

I agree that we must be wary of such an appeal to authority. I'm not saying that his authority makes his argument any more valid, but I am saying that we would be foolish to dismiss it out of hand. He's the kind of man who's worth listening to, even when he's wrong.
 
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Dorothea

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It depends entirely on who you're talking to, really. For my part, as an atheist, I did everything possible to eschew faith, discarding it as the crutch of the weak and irrational. Of course, the idea that reason and logic trump all is an a priori assumption that is itself based ultimately in faith, so I suppose you can call it what you like. However, I take issue with the idea (well, I'd call it a platitude) that it takes more effort not to believe than to believe... I'd have a much easier time if I dropped the idea of God again and quit struggling with him. However, the resulting existential nihilism is soul-crushing -- perhaps that is what the aforementioned platitude is referring to.
Excellent! I thank you for your input and perspective on this, Seraphim. I can see that, too. Even when I wasn't a practicing Christian (meaning I wasn't living a Christian life or going to Church and had no clue about Christ's teachings and such), there was always God somewhere in the background that only showed up when I needed something.
icon_rolleyes.gif
And for me, in my experience at those years of my life, I was miserable.
 
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Dorothea

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I think it's very true.

People just assume today that there is a God. Yes we live in a Christian culture (sort of), but in reality God is hardly ever discussed. But people naturally assume that there is one. People don't always just feel agnostic or atheist. They make the conscious choice to become one after being a theist their whole lives. The exceptions probably would be people who were brought up in already atheist households where the parents emphasize atheism.

Theism is the default. Not atheism. So yes, you have to work harder to think as an atheist. Because you have to twist so much logic just to assist your conclusion. It's kind of like how, when heliocentrism was beginning to replace geocentrism, people make calculations just in order to help support Ptolomey's theory until the obvious was irrefutable.
Maybe because it's in our very nature to worship God. Some just don't know it. :idea:
 
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SeraphimSarov

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Theism is the default. Not atheism. So yes, you have to work harder to think as an atheist. Because you have to twist so much logic just to assist your conclusion. It's kind of like how, when heliocentrism was beginning to replace geocentrism, people make calculations just in order to help support Ptolomey's theory until the obvious was irrefutable.

I'm just being intellectually honest here... no, as one who has been both a Christian and an atheist, it is not a stretch to think like an atheist at all. We believe in a Truth that cannot be scientifically proven, and in the culture in which we live, being unable to scientifically, logically or otherwise rationally show something to be true is tantamount to admitting its falsehood. Few, aside from the more philosophical types, are willing to admit the role faith plays in our lives, even among the atheists. Logic, reasoning and rationality ultimately fail when we start talking about first things, vis-a-vis epistemology and the like, but not many in our culture are willing to think that hard or admit its implications if they do.

No, sir, I disagree wholeheartedly -- our society is profoundly atheistic. Many of your run-of-the-mill "believers" just haven't thought hard enough about things to reach the inevitable atheistic conclusions from which modern thought stems.
 
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SeraphimSarov

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I agree that we must be wary of such an appeal to authority. I'm not saying that his authority makes his argument any more valid, but I am saying that we would be foolish to dismiss it out of hand. He's the kind of man who's worth listening to, even when he's wrong.

Very much agreed. I personally admire him a great deal, and I love to read his books geared toward laypersons such as myself. Unfortunately, some hastily dismiss all of his contributions, and all of science in general, out-of-hand because of some erroneous conclusions some scientists reach. It is a shame, because the deeper one delves into "how things work," the more amazing creation really is.
 
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