God creates evil...

[joshuanazar]

She's elect if she's saved.

But she says, as well as I do, that God loves everybody. If as you say, he does not love everybody, then why would he put it in the hearts of his "elect" to tell everybody that God loves them?

 

[twin1954]

I was mistaken I thought you were a Calvinist,what ever your doctrine I respect your level of education.

I am a Calvinistic Baptist. I preach the Doctrines of Grace, also known as the five points of Calvinism, clearly and without apology. But I am not a Reformed Baptist. I hold to a modified, I guess that would be what it called since Covenant Theology is primarily Presbyterian, Covenant Theology. I hold to a Baptist Covenant Theology.

I use the Calvinist Icon because it is just much simpler to use than to have to explain to every person what you believe.

 

[now faith]

I am a Calvinistic Baptist. I preach the Doctrines of Grace, also known as the five points of Calvinism, clearly and without apology. But I am not a Reformed Baptist. I hold to a modified, I guess that would be what it called since Covenant Theology is primarily Presbyterian, Covenant Theology. I hold to a Baptist Covenant Theology.

I use the Calvinist Icon because it is just much simpler to use than to have to explain to every person what you believe.

Thank You for your explanation,I am hear to learn and you have reconciled my lack of understanding.

 

[twin1954]

I am not sure how to do multi-quotes so I will try to color code my answers to the questions. I have read those scriptures before and I agree that God has a purpose for all of us and he can work every evil, every sin, to fulfill his ultimate purpose for this universe. Most of those scriptures are from the old covenant before grace and truth came by Jesus. And that one about Jacob and Esau was actually an old Jewish figure of speech.

Now one major issue that is preventing me from understanding your view is what you said about the fall of man. You said that you were convinced that God is the one that decides what we will do. Then he was the one who decided that Adam would fall. As you said God keeps us from committing some sins while allowing us to do others. Now please help clarify, but why would God create Adam upright if his purpose for Adam was to sin. You see God created Adam without a sinful nature So if Adam was created not wanting to sin, then who chose for Adam to fall and plunge us all into depravity? If God then why would God choose for us to be born into depravity and loving our sin? Why would God rather not have chosen to have us all remain upright and love him? Because God chose for Adam to fall when he was still upright, then sin must be apart of God's will, otherwise, it would not exist. Now seeing how an omnipotent, omniscient, sovereign God could have made it will we all lived in peace and love without sin or death (that is God's ultimate purpose according to the book of Revelations), why let Adam fall? Why decide to want to have this time of wickedness where people will go to hell?

How do you know how I started out studying? Before I started studying God showed me his love and it was so overwhelming. I started out with a predisposition not of my own control but of God's love. This characteristic that God revealed to me personally and therefore impossible of misinterpreting, is that God loves everybody. His love is so overwhelming that he sent Jesus to die for sinners. I even believe that God still loves Satan and the other fallen angels, though the reason for there being no redemption is a rabbit that I'd rather not chase. I cannot believe in a God that only loves a few, because that would mean that God lied to me personally.

Though I cannot completely understand how your view makes sense, I am also glad to hear that you believe people to have responsibility for their choices. I can see how your view should not hinder grace in your life so I can still call you a brother in Christ and I see you as part of his Body. However, if I had been that father in my question, I would not have been satisfied by your answer. In your testimony you gave an excellent definition of salvation, though at the end you said that if he sends you to hell than he would have done what is right. Do you think that there is still a chance for him to send you to hell?

I would love for you to answer at least the last question in black and the ones in red. Other than that I would like for you to tell me about Calvinism so that I could get a better understanding. Do you believe in everything that the Calvinists believe in? And what is the main difference between Arianism and Calvinism?

I will get back to you on this. It will take me a little time to consider how best to answer you in such a way that you understand easily. Not that it is complicated but that I want to say it in such a way that you don't mistake my meaning.

But I do want to answer the last part about Arianism and Calvinism. I am at a loss as to how you could equate the two. Arianism doesn't believe in the Deity of Christ and hold that He was a created being subordinate to the Father. Calvinism holds no such doctrine. Calvinists are as Trinitarian as they come.

 

[now faith]

People can claim what they want. We have pastors and teachers because scripture says those are continuing offices. But the apostles actually spoke to God. And communicated what He said. To do so today means that we do not have a closed canon.

Are you saying we cannot speak to God?
Nor can God speak to us?

Do you suppose you may have Apostles and Prophets lumped together?

Aside from the original 12 Apostles , were there any more in establishing the first Churches?

 

[now faith]

I will get back to you on this. It will take me a little time to consider how best to answer you in such a way that you understand easily. Not that it is complicated but that I want to say it in such a way that you don't mistake my meaning.

But I do want to answer the last part about Arianism and Calvinism. I am at a loss as to how you could equate the two. Arianism doesn't believe in the Deity of Christ and hold that He was a created being subordinate to the Father. Calvinism holds no such doctrine. Calvinists are as Trinitarian as they come.

I was under the impression that those who do not believe in the Trinity were Deist.

 

[now faith]

apos·tle

\ə-ˈpä-səl\noun
: any one of the 12 men chosen by Jesus Christ to spread the Christian religion

: someone who believes in or supports an idea, cause, etc.

Full Definition
1
:one sent on a mission: as

a :one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul

b :the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group
2
a :a person who initiates a great moral reform or who first advocates an important belief or system

b :an ardent supporter :adherent


Origin
Middle English, from Anglo-French & Old English; Anglo-French apostle & Old English apostol, both from Late Latin apostolus, from Greek apostolos, fromapostellein to send away, from apo- + stellein to send
First Use: before 12th century
Synonyms
advocate, advocator, exponent, backer, booster, champion, expounder, espouser, friend, gospeler(or gospeller), herald, hierophant, high priest, paladin, promoter, proponent, protagonist, supporter,true believer, tub-thumper, white knight


Source Webster.

 

[twin1954]

If you cannot see that John 3:16 is referring to everyone than you misunderstand what the word for world means and overlook the whosoever will part. Now Justice can only be justice if there is a set standard to judge from. A law is not just if there are people that are above the law. Even God put himself under the law. So for a law to be just then it has to apply to everyone. But saying that the law of redemption only applies to some "elect" few is to make the law of redemption unjust. I cannot serve a God that only loves the "elect" few, even if I was one of the few. And my view assumes that man is morally bankrupt and that God's grace is the only way for a person to love God. But my view all sees God as love. And as love, God offers his grace freely to anyone who will trust.

And please if you don't mind, could you tell me how you ended up loving God from a personal view? Your previous answer sounded to generalized, as if someone was reciting a textbook. Please tell me you personal testimony if you don't mind.

I hope you don't mind if I answer the part about John 3:16.
The word world has many different meanings in the Scriptures. In Luke 2:1 it means the Roman world. Not everybody in the world was under Roman rule at the time that Augustus decreed that all the world be taxed is just one example. The fact is that the word world rarely means everybody in the world without exception.
In John 3:16 the word simply means those scattered throughout the world. It does not mean everybody in the world for, as I pointed out earlier, God does very clearly say that there are some people that He hates.

But more than that the context explains what the Lord meant when He spoke those words. He was talking to a high Jew, a Pharisee who thought that God only just loved Jews. They wouldn't even walk on the same side of the street as a Gentile. What they called the Gentiles, as many "Christians" do unbelievers today, the world. Jesus was simply telling this Pharisee that God doesn't just love Jews.

As to the whosoever, we certainly believe in whosoever will let him come and take of the water of life freely. We just don't believe in whosoever will not. Jesus again told some of these Jews that they will not come to Him that they might have life. That is the default position of man. Man will not come and has no desire to come until and unless God, by the Spirit in the power of the preaching of the Gospel, gives him a new will. He doesn't do that for everybody.

Moreover in John 6:44 the Lord said that no man can come unless the Father draws him. In verse 45 He says that they shall all be taught of God. Not all men are taught of God and will not come.

Again in John 10:11 the Lord says that He is the Good Shepherd who give His life for the sheep. But only a few verses later, verse 26, he tells some folks that that they do not believe because they are not of His sheep.

I want you to look up these passages and prayerfully consider them.

The fact is that all who desire to be saved are saved. Any who came to Christ seeking mercy found it. But why did they come? They came because, like that leper in Matt. 8:2-3; Mark. 1:40 and Luke 5:12, they had a great need and they knew it. They had no hope in themselves and they believed that the Master could do what he said He could.

Unbelievers have no need of Christ as far as they know in themselves. It is only after they have been made to know their need do they willingly come to Christ. They do it because they have been born of God not to be born of God. 1John 5:1.

 

[twin1954]

I was under the impression that those who do not believe in the Trinity were Deist.

No a Desist is one who thinks that God has set things in motion and sort of sits back and watches what will happen.

 

[twin1954]

apos·tle

\ə-ˈpä-səl\noun
: any one of the 12 men chosen by Jesus Christ to spread the Christian religion

: someone who believes in or supports an idea, cause, etc.

Full Definition
1
:one sent on a mission: as

a :one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul

b :the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group
2
a :a person who initiates a great moral reform or who first advocates an important belief or system

b :an ardent supporter :adherent


Origin
Middle English, from Anglo-French & Old English; Anglo-French apostle & Old English apostol, both from Late Latin apostolus, from Greek apostolos, fromapostellein to send away, from apo- + stellein to send
First Use: before 12th century
Synonyms
advocate, advocator, exponent, backer, booster, champion, expounder, espouser, friend, gospeler(or gospeller), herald, hierophant, high priest, paladin, promoter, proponent, protagonist, supporter,true believer, tub-thumper, white knight


Source Webster.

The same could be said for the word angel. Angel simply means a messenger. But there is a difference between being a messenger and having the office of Apostle. Paul was an Apostle and he gives the requirement for that office in 1Cor. 9:1 and other places. The office of Apostle has ceased when John died. he was the last to have seen the Lord and was taught by Him directly.

 

[twin1954]

Are you saying we cannot speak to God?
Nor can God speak to us?

Do you suppose you may have Apostles and Prophets lumped together?

Aside from the original 12 Apostles , were there any more in establishing the first Churches?

No there were only the twelve.

God speaks to His people by His Son through His Word. Heb. 1:1; 4:12; 2Pet. 1:16-21

 

[John Robie]

Are you saying we cannot speak to God?
Nor can God speak to us?

Do you suppose you may have Apostles and Prophets lumped together?

Aside from the original 12 Apostles , were there any more in establishing the first Churches?

I speak to God through prayer. He speaks to me through His word.

 

[John Robie]

But she says, as well as I do, that God loves everybody. If as you say, he does not love everybody, then why would he put it in the hearts of his "elect" to tell everybody that God loves them?

If it goes against scripture, it's not from God no matter how warm and fuzzy it makes her.

 

[hedrick]

No a Desist is one who thinks that God has set things in motion and sort of sits back and watches what will happen.

In theory one could be a Trinitarian and deist. However at least in England, deism was part of a super-liberal pattern that also normally included rejection of the Trinity. There are probably modern examples of Trinitarians who are effectively deists, though.

 

[joshuanazar]

Are you saying we cannot speak to God?
Nor can God speak to us?

Do you suppose you may have Apostles and Prophets lumped together?

Aside from the original 12 Apostles , were there any more in establishing the first Churches?

There was Timothy ,Barnabas, Mark, James the brother of Jesus, there were quite a bit of apostles more than I have named. An apostle was somebody who went and established churches. As such we still have people doing that today.

 

[joshuanazar]

I hope you don't mind if I answer the part about John 3:16.
The word world has many different meanings in the Scriptures. In Luke 2:1 it means the Roman world. Not everybody in the world was under Roman rule at the time that Augustus decreed that all the world be taxed is just one example. The fact is that the word world rarely means everybody in the world without exception.
In John 3:16 the word simply means those scattered throughout the world. It does not mean everybody in the world for, as I pointed out earlier, God does very clearly say that there are some people that He hates.

But more than that the context explains what the Lord meant when He spoke those words. He was talking to a high Jew, a Pharisee who thought that God only just loved Jews. They wouldn't even walk on the same side of the street as a Gentile. What they called the Gentiles, as many "Christians" do unbelievers today, the world. Jesus was simply telling this Pharisee that God doesn't just love Jews.

As to the whosoever, we certainly believe in whosoever will let him come and take of the water of life freely. We just don't believe in whosoever will not. Jesus again told some of these Jews that they will not come to Him that they might have life. That is the default position of man. Man will not come and has no desire to come until and unless God, by the Spirit in the power of the preaching of the Gospel, gives him a new will. He doesn't do that for everybody.

Moreover in John 6:44 the Lord said that no man can come unless the Father draws him. In verse 45 He says that they shall all be taught of God. Not all men are taught of God and will not come.

Again in John 10:11 the Lord says that He is the Good Shepherd who give His life for the sheep. But only a few verses later, verse 26, he tells some folks that that they do not believe because they are not of His sheep.

I want you to look up these passages and prayerfully consider them.

The fact is that all who desire to be saved are saved. Any who came to Christ seeking mercy found it. But why did they come? They came because, like that leper in Matt. 8:2-3; Mark. 1:40 and Luke 5:12, they had a great need and they knew it. They had no hope in themselves and they believed that the Master could do what he said He could.

Unbelievers have no need of Christ as far as they know in themselves. It is only after they have been made to know their need do they willingly come to Christ. They do it because they have been born of God not to be born of God. 1John 5:1.

I agree that we cannot come to Christ without being drawn. But Jesus said "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me."

 

[joshuanazar]

I will get back to you on this. It will take me a little time to consider how best to answer you in such a way that you understand easily. Not that it is complicated but that I want to say it in such a way that you don't mistake my meaning.

But I do want to answer the last part about Arianism and Calvinism. I am at a loss as to how you could equate the two. Arianism doesn't believe in the Deity of Christ and hold that He was a created being subordinate to the Father. Calvinism holds no such doctrine. Calvinists are as Trinitarian as they come.

Hey it has been a while since you were on here. I look forward to your answer. I only put Arianism and Calvinism together because I often see them on different sides of arguments a lot. What are the five points of Calvinism? Why call them the five points of Calvinism if they are from the Bible? I am assume that you believe that whatever they are, these five points are scriptural.

 

[joshuanazar]

The same could be said for the word angel. Angel simply means a messenger. But there is a difference between being a messenger and having the office of Apostle. Paul was an Apostle and he gives the requirement for that office in 1Cor. 9:1 and other places. The office of Apostle has ceased when John died. he was the last to have seen the Lord and was taught by Him directly.

I disagree. There are plenty of people today that have seen Jesus. I saw him in a vision before I was even saved.

 

[joshuanazar]

No there were only the twelve.

God speaks to His people by His Son through His Word. Heb. 1:1; 4:12; 2Pet. 1:16-21

Paul was an apostle though not one of the original twelve Galatians 1:1. And James the brother of Jesus Galatians 1:19. There are also implications of others.

 

[joshuanazar]

If it goes against scripture, it's not from God no matter how warm and fuzzy it makes her.

And throughout this whole discussion you have yet to show that God does not love everyone. God is love. If we are to love our neighbors then it makes perfect sense that God loves them to. God will not ask us to do something that he cannot do himself.