God creates evil...

[joshuanazar]

Is anybody reading these posts on the last pages? If nobody is reading them then I wish to stop this debate. Though I am still looking forward to twin's answer about the fall of man.

 

[now faith]

In theory one could be a Trinitarian and deist. However at least in England, deism was part of a super-liberal pattern that also normally included rejection of the Trinity. There are probably modern examples of Trinitarians who are effectively deists, though.

Yes I agree in theory,but I would assume such a person would have started out being taught about the Trinity.
They being Deist would not proclaim the Devine nature of Christ as our Saviour.

 

[now faith]

No there were only the twelve.

God speaks to His people by His Son through His Word. Heb. 1:1; 4:12; 2Pet. 1:16-21

I speak to God through prayer. He speaks to me through His word.

Romans: 8. 1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


I agree we are lead in the Word, but the Spirit dwells in us.
vs.11 is clear the Spirit works in us.

Keep 2 things in mind : this was written before the completed Bible.

As well we say God's Word but who has provided the text?

Is God's Word the critical text or the received text?

God is not the author of confusion.

As well where can you find anywhere in God's Word that he is limited on how he can speak.

 

[now faith]

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

I agree that anyone who prophesies must be in accordance with God's Word.

Otherwise any Joseph Smith could claim a new gospel.

There has been only one Gospel of Christ and it will not Change.

This does not forbid being guided in life by The Holy Ghost.

To know the will of God all you need is the Word of God

John 16: -13-14-15

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
[14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
[15] All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[twin1954]

I am not sure how to do multi-quotes so I will try to color code my answers to the questions. I have read those scriptures before and I agree that God has a purpose for all of us and he can work every evil, every sin, to fulfill his ultimate purpose for this universe. Most of those scriptures are from the old covenant before grace and truth came by Jesus.

God didn't change when Jesus came. He has always been a God of grace. No one was ever saved by the law. Paul, in Gal. 3, clearly tells us the purpose of the law. It was given to expose sin and therefore be our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. The Old Covenant was actually a revelation of the New. The Scriptures that Jesus and the Apostles preached from was the Old Testament. They preached Christ from them. Don't dismiss them as though they have no bearing on us today. They have as much authority as the Word of God today as they did then.

Apparently you have been taught a very poor hermeneutic, bible interpretation. You cannot simply dismiss any part of the Word of God by making a distinction between the Old Covenant and the New. They are the same in what they teach. There is a saying that you would do well to remember, "The New Testament is in the Old concealed and the Old Testament is in the New revealed." Everything about God's grace and truth is taught in the Old Testament it is just clearly revealed in the New. Please look up these passages and read them prayerfully. John 5:39, Luke 24:25-27.

Anyway you didn't actually deal with the passages that I gave you just dismissed them and tried to explain them away. Go back and read them again and consider what they say. I am not trying to convince you to be a Calvinist I am trying to get you to deal honestly with the Scriptures.

And that one about Jacob and Esau was actually an old Jewish figure of speech.

Whoever told you that was a liar. It is a direct quote from the Old Testament. Mal. 1:2 While it is true that there are some passages in the Scriptures that seem to clearly say something that is contradictory to the teaching of the whole of the Scriptures and must be understood and explained in the context of the teaching of the whole of the Scriptures but this is not one of them.

Be very careful that you do not just dismiss any word in the Word. Paul makes an argument in Gal. 3 based on whether a word is singular or plural. Every word is important and true.

Now one major issue that is preventing me from understanding your view is what you said about the fall of man. You said that you were convinced that God is the one that decides what we will do. Then he was the one who decided that Adam would fall. As you said God keeps us from committing some sins while allowing us to do others. Now please help clarify, but why would God create Adam upright if his purpose for Adam was to sin. You see God created Adam without a sinful nature So if Adam was created not wanting to sin, then who chose for Adam to fall and plunge us all into depravity? If God then why would God choose for us to be born into depravity and loving our sin? Why would God rather not have chosen to have us all remain upright and love him? Because God chose for Adam to fall when he was still upright, then sin must be apart of God's will, otherwise, it would not exist. Now seeing how an omnipotent, omniscient, sovereign God could have made it will we all lived in peace and love without sin or death (that is God's ultimate purpose according to the book of Revelations), why let Adam fall? Why decide to want to have this time of wickedness where people will go to hell?

God purposed and ordained that Adam sin but He didn't push Adam into it. The Scriptures say very plainly that Adam wasn't deceived, 1Tim. 2:14. Adam sinned because he desired the woman more than he desired God. He knew that she must die and just chose to die with her.
Now when God made that covenant with Adam in which He promised that in the day that he ate of the forbidden fruit he would surely die the phrase, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" can be properly translated as not implying that it could come to pass but that it would. God purposed and ordained the fall of Adam in order to show the wonder and gloriousness of His mercy and grace.
When the angels fell they did not experience the mercy of God. The angels that He kept in righteousness know nothing of the mercy of God by experience. They can only know it by observing it in the church.

(Eph 3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


(Eph 3:10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


(Eph 3:11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God purposed to glorify Himself in sovereign mercy before the foundation of the world, Ex. 33:18-19, 2Tim. 1:9-10.

Adam fell because he wanted to but he did it according to the purpose of God to glorify Himself in sovereign mercy.

How do you know how I started out studying?

Because it is the default position of all men naturally. All men naturally believe that they have a free will and when they come to the Scriptures they read that view into them. That you have done so is obvious.

Before I started studying God showed me his love and it was so overwhelming. I started out with a predisposition not of my own control but of God's love. This characteristic that God revealed to me personally and therefore impossible of misinterpreting, is that God loves everybody.

Warning, I am going to be a bit blunt here but it isn't intended to offend you but to give you something to think about.
One of Satan's greatest lies and deceptions is to get people to read their Bibles and read into them something that isn't there. He wants folks to go to church and worship a god of their imaginations rather than the One True God as He is revealed in the Scriptures.
I have shown you clearly that God says that he doesn't love everybody but that He loves His people. I have given you the Scriptures and tried to logically show you why and how it can't be true that God loves everybody. I asked you some questions, which you either missed or have ignored, as to what difference does the love of God makes in the salvation of sinners if he loves those who end up in Hell. A god who loves all men and desires to save all men but can't unless they do something is no god at all. He is a figment of men's imaginations. He is a god more worthy of pity than of worship.

His love is so overwhelming that he sent Jesus to die for sinners. I even believe that God still loves Satan and the other fallen angels, though the reason for there being no redemption is a rabbit that I'd rather not chase. I cannot believe in a God that only loves a few, because that would mean that God lied to me personally.

It isn't God that lied to you. And nowhere does it ever say that those who God loves are only a few. It says that they are an innumerable company, more than the stars of the sky and the sand of the sea. Heaven isn't an empty shell that has only a few in it. It is full and complete filled with a numberless company called the elect of God.
But yes His love is overwhelming. He loved so much that He sent the Son to die in the place of chosen sinners and accomplish all their salvation. He loved so much that He not only saved them but gives them every blessing in Christ. His love is backed by His infinite wisdom and power and actually accomplishes whatever he has purpose in His infinite love.
The kind of love you talk about is nothing but a useless emotion.

Though I cannot completely

understand how your view makes sense, I am also glad to hear that you believe people to have responsibility for their choices. I can see how your view should not hinder grace in your life so I can still call you a brother in Christ and I see you as part of his Body. However, if I had been that father in my question, I would not have been satisfied by your answer. In your testimony you gave an excellent definition of salvation, though at the end you said that if he sends you to hell than he would have done what is right. Do you think that there is still a chance for him to send you to hell?

Truth isn't intended to satisfy. It is intended to reveal. If the father would actually think about my answer he would be comforted. I find the greatest comfort in knowing that God is absolutely sovereign in all things and that He is absolutely good to His people.
As far as your question I have no doubt that I am a child of God by faith. He will not send me to Hell not because I did something but because I trust my entire being and soul on the person and work of Christ alone. He has made a promise and will not go back on it. My assurance is in the veracity of God not my choice.

I would love for you to answer at least the last question in black and the ones in red. Other than that I would like for you to tell me about Calvinism so that I could get a better understanding. Do you believe in everything that the Calvinists believe in? And what is the main difference between Arianism and Calvinism?

As far as telling you about Calvinism how long do you have to listen? I will, though sit down and write something in the near future that may be of help to you.
And no I do differ in some things with the whole theology of Calvinism. I am not a follower of John Calvin but he did get some things very right. Where I differ is of little consequence though in the scheme of the truth of the Scriptures.

 

[joshuanazar]

God didn't change when Jesus came. He has always been a God of grace. No one was ever saved by the law. Paul, in Gal. 3, clearly tells us the purpose of the law. It was given to expose sin and therefore be our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ. The Old Covenant was actually a revelation of the New. The Scriptures that Jesus and the Apostles preached from was the Old Testament. They preached Christ from them. Don't dismiss them as though they have no bearing on us today. They have as much authority as the Word of God today as they did then.

Apparently you have been taught a very poor hermeneutic, bible interpretation. You cannot simply dismiss any part of the Word of God by making a distinction between the Old Covenant and the New. They are the same in what they teach. There is a saying that you would do well to remember, "The New Testament is in the Old concealed and the Old Testament is in the New revealed." Everything about God's grace and truth is taught in the Old Testament it is just clearly revealed in the New. Please look up these passages and read them prayerfully. John 5:39, Luke 24:25-27.

Anyway you didn't actually deal with the passages that I gave you just dismissed them and tried to explain them away. Go back and read them again and consider what they say. I am not trying to convince you to be a Calvinist I am trying to get you to deal honestly with the Scriptures. Whoever told you that was a liar. It is a direct quote from the Old Testament. Mal. 1:2 While it is true that there are some passages in the Scriptures that seem to clearly say something that is contradictory to the teaching of the whole of the Scriptures and must be understood and explained in the context of the teaching of the whole of the Scriptures but this is not one of them.

Be very careful that you do not just dismiss any word in the Word. Paul makes an argument in Gal. 3 based on whether a word is singular or plural. Every word is important and true.

God purposed and ordained that Adam sin but He didn't push Adam into it. The Scriptures say very plainly that Adam wasn't deceived, 1Tim. 2:14. Adam sinned because he desired the woman more than he desired God. He knew that she must die and just chose to die with her.
Now when God made that covenant with Adam in which He promised that in the day that he ate of the forbidden fruit he would surely die the phrase, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" can be properly translated as not implying that it could come to pass but that it would. God purposed and ordained the fall of Adam in order to show the wonder and gloriousness of His mercy and grace.
When the angels fell they did not experience the mercy of God. The angels that He kept in righteousness know nothing of the mercy of God by experience. They can only know it by observing it in the church.

(Eph 3:9) And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


(Eph 3:10) To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


(Eph 3:11) According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God purposed to glorify Himself in sovereign mercy before the foundation of the world, Ex. 33:18-19, 2Tim. 1:9-10.

Adam fell because he wanted to but he did it according to the purpose of God to glorify Himself in sovereign mercy.


Because it is the default position of all men naturally. All men naturally believe that they have a free will and when they come to the Scriptures they read that view into them. That you have done so is obvious. Warning, I am going to be a bit blunt here but it isn't intended to offend you but to give you something to think about.
One of Satan's greatest lies and deceptions is to get people to read their Bibles and read into them something that isn't there. He wants folks to go to church and worship a god of their imaginations rather than the One True God as He is revealed in the Scriptures.
I have shown you clearly that God says that he doesn't love everybody but that He loves His people. I have given you the Scriptures and tried to logically show you why and how it can't be true that God loves everybody. I asked you some questions, which you either missed or have ignored, as to what difference does the love of God makes in the salvation of sinners if he loves those who end up in Hell. A god who loves all men and desires to save all men but can't unless they do something is no god at all. He is a figment of men's imaginations. He is a god more worthy of pity than of worship. It isn't God that lied to you. And nowhere does it ever say that those who God loves are only a few. It says that they are an innumerable company, more than the stars of the sky and the sand of the sea. Heaven isn't an empty shell that has only a few in it. It is full and complete filled with a numberless company called the elect of God.
But yes His love is overwhelming. He loved so much that He sent the Son to die in the place of chosen sinners and accomplish all their salvation. He loved so much that He not only saved them but gives them every blessing in Christ. His love is backed by His infinite wisdom and power and actually accomplishes whatever he has purpose in His infinite love.
The kind of love you talk about is nothing but a useless emotion.

Truth isn't intended to satisfy. It is intended to reveal. If the father would actually think about my answer he would be comforted. I find the greatest comfort in knowing that God is absolutely sovereign in all things and that He is absolutely good to His people.
As far as your question I have no doubt that I am a child of God by faith. He will not send me to Hell not because I did something but because I trust my entire being and soul on the person and work of Christ alone. He has made a promise and will not go back on it. My assurance is in the veracity of God not my choice.

As far as telling you about Calvinism how long do you have to listen? I will, though sit down and write something in the near future that may be of help to you.
And no I do differ in some things with the whole theology of Calvinism. I am not a follower of John Calvin but he did get some things very right. Where I differ is of little consequence though in the scheme of the truth of the Scriptures.

At this point I am finished with debating. I agree perfectly with what you said about the old testament. I have often said that same saying. But the old testament was under the law it taught the law all I am saying is that in the old testament the emphasis was on his perfection and justice and wrath. The new testament has emphasis on grace. I know the Jacob and Esau verse was from the old testament, that is why I said an old saying.

Like I said I am tired of debating. You are confident of your view and I am definitely confident of mine. But the Adam you just described diss not sound like a perfect creation if he still chose to sin. It also sounds like an impossibility if he was created upright and again why would God's purpose be for man to fall? Could he not have shown grace to upright people? He can do anything. The fact that Adam was alive was proof of grace. So I can't really believe that God had to let man fall to show grace.

Feel free to ignore everything above. I answered because I taught it would be rude to ask you questions and not reply to them. But I want to know more about your beliefs, how long have you been Calvinist and what don't you agree on? I of course do not belong to any denomination as I don't see the need to. I do not even identify with nondenomational.

 

[now faith]

Well on Adam not being perfect,I must disagree.

God made man in His image,God has perfect will in anything he so desires.

Perfection exist only by imperfection or the ability to choose.

Does God lie ? No it is his omnipotent power that he wills not to.

Without a comparative example there can be no determining factor for or against imperfection.