GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

[Searching_for_Christ]

Question Hismessenger WHY is it Gods fault? see now your taking our actions, and putting it on God! If I was to introduce a woman to you, and you lusted after her who's fault would it be? mine? because I introduced her to you? or would it be yours because through your own choices you decided to sin, and have the pleasures of fantasizing about her? You can't blame God for the shortcomings of yourself or myself.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

God created free will and morality.

In order to choose good, evil must exist.

However, after our first biological ancestors ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and learned the difference, the LORD clearly tells us to choose good over evil.

 

[Zeena]

The point is that where did the thing come from which is lusted after. IT had a beginning and it is in the creation so who is the author of the creation.

Tempation MUST come, no?
Even as the Lord Jesus has said?

When we are drawn away [from God] by following after our our lusts [again, rather than following the Lord] THEN sin concieves.

The lusts themselves are not inherantly sinful, but the choice to follow after them can be, should we chose to do so, rather than follow after the Lord. Even as the Scripture quoted has stated.

WE must let God be God

"We must let" implies a choice, no?

Submit to God, resist the devil, and he will flee from you?

and not try to make him conform to our understandings.

It is much better we are conformed to His.
For our God doesn't fit in box's very well!

He has purpose in everything which is about in His creation. Nothing is here by chance or happenstance.

hismessenger

Nothing is HERE by chance or happenstance, but again, you are portioning off sin as an entity, rather than a choice.

 

[Zeena]

Zeena, I know you like to post verses, and obviously you should, but please try to say what you mean by posting them in your own words too.

What I was pointing out from Scripture is that men have the choice to either submit to God, resisting the devil, or to submit to the devil. And men chose to submit to the devil because it IS pleasurable, as Scripture indicates. Will the pleasure subside and will judgement come? YES! But it's still pleasureable for a season, as Scripture also indicates.

2 Peter 2:15
They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness.

Yes, but we must consider who Peter means by "they" and also to whom the letter is addressed.

Peter is speaking of professed Christians, who have turned away from following Christ.

2 Peter 2:4-22 [more in context]
4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
5And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
7And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
8(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds; )
9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
15Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

It is quite plain what the Lord is saying, in that they KNEW the Way, but they refused the Way, and went their own way, the way of death. They HAD escaped the corruption of the world by the knowledge of their Lord and Saviour, but they turned away! The Scripture is plain, this is speaking of professed Christians who have turned away from following the Lord.

Romans 11:20-21
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Hebrews 12:25-29
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

Concerning my assertions, to which I think you are replying, I think one must take into account this passage:

Romans 11:32
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

I just quoted further from Romans 11.
It is clear Paul is speaking of the hardening [in part] of the Jews.

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;

So then, Paul is not speaking of all mankind, but the children of the flesh, rather than the promise, no?

Hebrews 11:25
Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

Once again, who is Paul talking about when he mentions "the people of God," and to whom is he writing the letter?

He is speaking of the children of the faith of Abraham.

John 8:37-40
I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

Romans 9:8
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

This only seems to apply in a roundabout way. What do you mean with this one?

Roundabout is good for a full picture, is it not?

I find this verse applicable in that men CHOSE to follow their own devices, for it is not only easier [there is no yoke of bondage to God, but to sin, which is FAR easier and satisfactory [albiet for only a season] than submitting to the Holy One].

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

They will eat and drink, be merry and glad in their hearts, for the time being. But sin brings forth death, and they will die.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

1 Corinthians 16:13
Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.

 

[MarkEvan]

Then where did the iniquity come from which was found in Him. Did someone else do some creating apart from God. There are a few scripture which point out this truth but the religious have not the mind to receive this truth for it offends, just as Peter with the sheets of unclean animals. The thing is to submit to the will of God. Whether or not you understand it or not. Some things are not for our understandings at this time.

Sorry to take us back a bit but it is relevant to the rest of the thread.

Creation was free from evil and sin...no where in Genesis does it talk about God creating evil, in fact all he created was 'very good' including lucifer God even says Lucifer was blameless in all his ways......now as we know sin is not just tha act but the thoought for lucifer to be blameless meant that he had no evil thoughts to begin with...

Ezekiel 28

14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned. So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, O guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty, and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor. So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.


He was blameless untill wickedness was found in him....did that wickedness come from God? No it came from lucifer's own free will choice to be disobediant 'you corrupted you wisdom because of your splender,' God did not and will not cause people to do evil and sin, He presents a choice but it is we who choose what to do:

Isaiah 53

'For we have all like sheep gone astray, we have all turned to our own way'

We chose which way to go of our own free will, yeah that may be a will in bondage to sin at that time but The Lord gives all men the ability to choose life just as he did through Joshua...


14 "Now therefore fear the LORD and serve him in sincerity and in faithfulness. Put away the gods that your fathers served beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

 

[Hismessenger]

On the contrary Markevan, there are scripture to show that very thing;

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Many believe it is about choice but it really is about submission. About being content in whatever state that you find yourself in. That is where the deception comes in about free will. I don't have to choose anything if I understand my condition as per the word of God. My life is already ordered according to the Lord of creation and I live it as it is given trusting that he has given me the path to His glory that he would have me to go, both good and bad. In the garden, Satan made them think they needed to make a choice when in fact and truth, they were and had everything they could ever need as God had given. All they needed to do was live.

hismessenger

 

[MarkEvan]

Creating the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is different than actually creating evil....firstly what is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, in Genesis it is portrayed as what gave Adam and Eve the understanding that every choice has a good and pleasing way to God and another way that is sinful and disobediant. Evil was not created with this tree mearly the knowledge of what it was to be disobediant and to be able to choose that path...before they ate of the fruit both Adam and Eve were inocent in their actions however they knew not to eat of the tree though perhaps not knowing why not. Evil at this point had already been commited by satan so it was not 'created' with the tree, it (in terms of being able to be disobediant) already existed and was not a created thing in the way that say flowers, birds and we are but was rather the act of disobediance to God.

Many believe it is about choice but it really is about submission. About being content in whatever state that you find yourself in.

But that in itself is a choice, we can choose to accept our situation or not, we can choose to submit or not....that is free will.

That is where the deception comes in about free will. I don't have to choose anything if I understand my condition as per the word of God.

But you do have to choose to 'take up your cross daily and follow Him,' and guess what you have to make that choice daily. Sure if a believer is truly wanting to serve God above all others even themselves then yes that person will always do what is the 'good, pleasing and perfect' will of God but they do that because they have chosen and then through the power of God 'laid their lives down as a sacrifice on the alter', 'choosing not to be conformed to this world.'

My life is already ordered according to the Lord of creation and I live it as it is given trusting that he has given me the path to His glory that he would have me to go, both good and bad. In the garden, Satan made them think they needed to make a choice when in fact and truth, they were and had everything they could ever need as God had given. All they needed to do was live.

But the choice still exists for us today, who will we serve? Will we follow Joshua's example or will we worship images of our own making? We make that choice with every dicision. It is not a case of when we are born again saying 'right God has clensed me of the power and guilt of sin and now He will cause me to serve him without my thinking.' But rather being clensed of the power and guilt of sin so that we can start to serve God........so that we can make the choice not to do evil because His Spirit empowers us to be able to do so.


But back to the topic at hand , God did not create evil, evil is the act of being disobediant, God gave us the choice but does not force us down either route.

 

[Tzaousios]

What I was pointing out from Scripture is that men have the choice to either submit to God, resisting the devil, or to submit to the devil. And men chose to submit to the devil because it IS pleasurable, as Scripture indicates. Will the pleasure subside and will judgement come? YES! But it's still pleasureable for a season, as Scripture also indicates.

Alright, I understand this. But you must make a distinction in the men you are talking about. Is this ALL men, across the board, from Adam to the newest one to be born, have a strictly black and white choice to submit to God or the Devil?

I find it difficult to believe, considering the clear declarations of Scripture concerning sin and its effect on the human person, that this choice is as black and white as you make it out to be.

What causes them to desire to see their sin as something bad and then to desire to submit to God and then to submit to God? In fact, a person steeped in sin and finding great pleasure in it most likely does not even recognize it as them submitting to the Devil. Neither do they look upon repentance as something God commands and that it means submission to Him.

Genesis 6:5

5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 8:21

21 And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Psalm 51:5

5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.

Proverbs 14:12

12 There is a way that seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.

Isaiah 64:4

4 For since the beginning of the world
Men have not heard nor perceived by the ear,
Nor has the eye seen any God besides You,
Who acts for the one who waits for Him.
5 You meet him who rejoices and does righteousness,
Who remembers You in Your ways.
You are indeed angry, for we have sinned—
In these ways we continue;
And we need to be saved.

John 8:43-45

43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.

1 John 5:19

19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

I just quoted further from Romans 11.
It is clear Paul is speaking of the hardening [in part] of the Jews.

Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;

So then, Paul is not speaking of all mankind, but the children of the flesh, rather than the promise, no?

Indeed, Paul is speaking of the Jews, only as "children of the flesh" in that particular context. Nevertheless, aren't the "children of the promise" deemed as such because they have been grafted into Israel by faith? Thus, before receiving the full benefits of being grafted in by faith, they were as carnal and steeped in unrepentant sin and disobedience as the covenant-breaking Jews.

He is speaking of the children of the faith of Abraham.

Yes, insofar as they have been granted repentance and have come to faith. Not all have this, though.

He is speaking of the children of the faith of Abraham.

No, often it misses the important trees for the forest.

I find this verse applicable in that men CHOSE to follow their own devices, for it is not only easier [there is no yoke of bondage to God, but to sin, which is FAR easier and satisfactory [albiet for only a season] than submitting to the Holy One].

Indeed, they freely chose to continue doing what they desired most - sin. They did not desire to submit to God in the first place, nor did they see it as something good to be desired.

As for your comment that "there is not yoke of bondage to God," I would disagree. There is a bondage to both sin and to God. The former is something undesirable while the latter is desirable. Paul says as much here:

Romans 6:15-23

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Christos Anesti]

"Sin, Gehenna, and death do not exist at all with God, for they are effects, not substances."
St Isaac of Syria

 

[Zeena]

"Sin, Gehenna, and death do not exist at all with God, for they are effects, not substances."
St Isaac of Syria

AMEN!

MERRY CHRISTMAS ALL!!!

 

[Hismessenger]

Sin, Gehenna, and death do not exist at all with God, for they are effects

Such it is with evil as well.

Blessed Christmas

hismessenger

 

[bricklayer]

Where to start? Where to start? First of all evil is a privation of good. It is not of itself a "thing". It is the privation of a thing.

And yes, there is no spontinaity, no chance,no independant trials. God is the author of creation. God alone is necessary, everything else is contingent. What is contingent cannot become necessary and what is necessary cannot become contingent. However, this does not mean that God acts contrary to His nature. We do that. He is exactly one person removed from sin.

Since you are a muslim, I will go on to add this. As Christians, we believe that there is only one God.

Any act is triune in nature having intent, affect and effect. When God acts, the intent of God is always and only ever attributed to God the Father. The affect of God is always and only ever attributed to God the Holy Spirit, and the effect of God is always and only attributed to God the Son.

Jesus is effectively God. The Holy Spirit is affectively God. The Father is, for all intents and purposes, God.

The quintessential act is speech. It embodies intent (will), affect (breath), and effect (word). The Word of God is the effect of the affect of the intent of God. All things summed up in Christ.

What do you know of my intent, my affect? You know only my word. This is what Jesus is to us. No one comes to the intent of God but through the effect of God. And no one comes to the effect of God unless God intends it.

I do not believe that anyone can be saved, because those who are saved are saved from before the foundation of the world. I do believe that anyone may be saved, and if you are, you are; and if you're not, you're not. I hope you are.

 

[OzSpen]

cksilas,

GOD CREATED EVIL, Period!

I think that that is too simple a solution.

At a recent outreach men's breakfast, I spoke on the topic, "Can you believe in God after September 11 and the tsunami? Which 'monster' created evil?" At question time, a thoughtful Christian asked: "How does your view of the creation of evil line up with God who said in Isaiah, 'I created evil.'" My response was inadequate, so I have investigated further. The following is my understanding of this verse from Isaiah.

Isaiah 45:7 in the KJV states, "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

In the NIV it reads: "I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things."

In the ESV, the translation is: "I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things."

The NASB translation is: "The One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."
Here is the contrast:

• "I make peace, and I create evil" (KJV);
• "I bring prosperity and create disaster" (NIV);
• "I make well-being and create calamity" (ESV);
• "Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does these" (NASB).

Does God, the Lord, create moral evil, i.e. does God create sin, or does he create calamity or disaster? There is quite a difference in the meaning. If God creates all the evil in the world, from the beginning of time until the end of this world, what kind of a God is he? If he creates calamities or disasters what kind of God is he?

The word translated "evil" or "disaster/calamity" is the Hebrew, ra. It is true that the word can be used to refer to natural disasters or calamities. It is a very common word for evil as a general description in the OT. The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" in Gen. 2:9 uses this word, as is the evil of the people that brought the judgment of Noah's flood (Gen. 6:5). The evil of the men of Sodom and Gomorrah in Gen. 13:13 uses this word (Grudem 1994, p. 326 n7).

Ps. 34:14 reads, "Turn away from evil and do good." There's that word, ra, again. We read of it again in Isa. 59:7, speaking of those whose "feet run to evil." You can read it also in other passages in Isaiah (see Isa. 47:10, 11; 56:2; 57:1; 59:15; 65:12; 66:4)

There are many other OT passages that use ra to refer to moral evil (i.e. sin) and to disaster/calamity. How do we know how to translate? The context will tell us. Does God create evil/sin, or does God create disaster?

As Gordon Lewis and Bruce Demarest put it: "Isaiah does not teach the blasphemous idea that the Lord creates sin!" (1987, p. 312). If we look to the context of Isa. 45:7, this is what we find:

• Isa.45:11, "Thus says the Lord, the Holy One of Israel." He is the God of holiness. So, God could not be the creator of sin. Sin is incompatible with God's holiness.
• Isaiah predicted that sudden disaster would come to Babylon: "But evil shall come upon you, which you will not know how to charm away; disaster shall fall upon you, for which you will not be able to atone; and ruin shall come upon you suddenly, of which you know nothing" Isa 47:11 (ESV).

You can read a similar emphasis in Amos 3:6, which the KJV translates as: "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD has not done it?" The NIV translates as: "When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?"

It is only when there is judgment for sin that the prophets write as in Isa 45:7, "I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things" (NIV).

"Like a just judge, God decrees punishment for sin but he does not decree acts of sin" (Lewis and Demarest 1987, p. 312).

Remember Jonah who was thrown overboard by men on that ship travelling to Tarshish? "Then they [the men on the boat] took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew calm" (Jonah 1:15, NIV).

However, five verses later, in Jonah 2:3, Jonah is praying to God, "You hurled me into the deep, into the very heart of the seas, and the currents swirled about me; all your waves and breakers swept over me" (NIV).

How is it that the men on the boat threw Jonah overboard and that God hurled Jonah into the deep? The Bible can affirm that men did it and that it was God in action. God brought about his plan by using the men on the boat. In a way that we don't quite understand, "God caused [the men] to make a willing choice to do what they did" (Grudem 1994, p. 326).
Alec Motyer observes:

"Prosperity … disaster: the older, literal rendering 'peace … evil' caused unnecessary difficulties. Can the Lord 'create evil'? Out of about 640 occurrences of the word ra', which range in meaning from a 'nasty' taste to a full moral evil, there are about 275 cases where it refers to trouble or calamity. Each case must be judged by its context and NIV has done so correctly here. Cyrus was 'bad news' to the kings he conquered and the cities he overthrew. But Isaiah's (and the Bible's) view of divine providence is rigorous – and for that reason full of comfort. Sinful minds want the comfort of a sovereign God but jib at saying with Job (2:10), 'Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble (ra)?' (1999, p. 287).

How does this relate to Isa. 45:7? God used people in Jonah's day to perform an evil action. In Isaiah's day, God brought disaster on Babylon through the use of human means.

God does not create all of the sinful evil in the world, but God does bring disaster or calamity as his judgment. It was God who created "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" (Gen. 2:9).

References:
Wayne Grudem 1994, Systematic Theology, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Gordon R. Lewis and Bruce A. Demarest 1987, Integrative Theology, vol. 1, Academie Books (Zondervan Publishing House), Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Alec Motyer 1999, Isaiah (Tyndale Old Testament Commentaries), Inter-Varsity Press, Leicester, England.

 

[ChildOfGod97]

So how did this creature 'turned against' God? The ONLY logical explanation is that everything was God's plan. God designed both good and evil, he is above all, rules over everything. The devil is not a rival of GOD but a creature working according to how it was designd to work.

You are correct, and this is a difficult truth. This does not mean that villains do not exist. It does not excuse evil. As Paul stated, 'who knows He did not create vessels of wrath to demonstrate His power'. God created Pharaoh and raised him up to 'demonstrate His power'.

When God created seed bearing plants, He created "death", for seeds fall from a tree and the fruit "dies" and the seed "dies" to become reborn. Basic concept of replication. This was before much else was created at all.

Was this "evil"? It was a type of suffering. It was not "evil" as we think of it today, however. Seeds travel from above, the branches, to below, to the ground, to beneath even the ground. Then they rise up, towards the light.

That is an expression of growth and of taking on difficulties to make savoring that growth meaningful.

Only God is good. So creatures were created less then God. But overall, all of creation was stated as being "very good". This we do not yet see, for the end result is ultimately where that goodness is revealed to all of Heaven and earth.

This is common knowledge, but it is deep knowledge, so many have a difficulty thinking on it. Or admitting they understand it. That is my perspective on the matter.

 

[Hismessenger]

God has blessed you with understanding that most will not be able to grasp in two areas.
One that you submit to His sovereignty and two, that you lean not to your understanding.

May your diligence be continually blessed in Jesus

hismessenger

 

[dark-in-the-whale]

To eliminate any confusion, I am a Christian. I don't, however, think that the Bible is the infallible word of God, but a wonderful and various record of man's search for God written over several centuries, redacted, supplemented and variously translated. I am not any less a spiritual person because of this, and hope that this doesn't immediately disqualify my participation in this forum.

That said, I don't believe there is any such thing as original sin. I believe we are vastly imperfect, but not condemned to be such. I believe that much of Biblical literature is veiled in mystery and therefore there is more that one interpretation scripture.

I am curious: where did the formulation of original sin come from? I don't find it in the Bible. Was it Augustine?

 

[Almighty's humble servant]

To eliminate any confusion, I am a Christian. I don't, however, think that the Bible is the infallible word of God, but a wonderful and various record of man's search for God written over several centuries, redacted, supplemented and variously translated. I am not any less a spiritual person because of this, and hope that this doesn't immediately disqualify my participation in this forum.

That said, I don't believe there is any such thing as original sin. I believe we are vastly imperfect, but not condemned to be such. I believe that much of Biblical literature is veiled in mystery and therefore there is more that one interpretation scripture.

I am curious: where did the formulation of original sin come from? I don't find it in the Bible. Was it Augustine?

Good question. I gotta think that from womans' punishment of painful labour. Pain in general is punishment. Punishment for being born a man out of the Kingdom of Paradise.

 

[bricklayer]

God's creation is not antropocentric, it is Theocentric.
God's purpose for His creation is the revelation of His glory.
His glory is His holiness.
His holiness is the inviolate balance of His infinite perfections.
His holiness is everything about Him,
anything less than everything would violate His holiness.
It's what He loves and what He hates.
It's His mercy and His judgement.
It's His grace and His wrath.
Think: Wholeness, Inviolate, Unchanging, Infinite
Now, sin and redemption from sin make sense.
How else was he going to reveal His glory.

 

[OzSpen]

dark-in-the-whale,

To eliminate any confusion, I am a Christian. I don't, however, think that the Bible is the infallible word of God, but a wonderful and various record of man's search for God written over several centuries, redacted, supplemented and variously translated. I am not any less a spiritual person because of this, and hope that this doesn't immediately disqualify my participation in this forum.

That said, I don't believe there is any such thing as original sin. I believe we are vastly imperfect, but not condemned to be such. I believe that much of Biblical literature is veiled in mystery and therefore there is more that one interpretation scripture.

I am curious: where did the formulation of original sin come from? I don't find it in the Bible. Was it Augustine?

You say that:

• you are a Christian;
• you don't believe the Bible is the infallible word of God;
• the Bible was written over several centuries,
• the Bible was edited (redacted),
• the Bible was added to (supplemented)
• The Bible was variously translated.
• In spite of the above doctrine, you are still a spiritual person and don't expect this to disqualify you from participating in this Forum.
• you don't believe in original sin.
• we (human beings) are vastly imperfect but not condemned.
• much of biblical literature is veiled in mystery.
• there is more than one interpretation of Scripture.

With your view of the Bible and Christianity, nearly every point of which can be challenged, then you want us to tell you where original sin came from. Augustine?

In fact the doctrine of original sin, inherited sin, imputed sin or sinful nature comes straight from the Scriptures. See, "Is there original sin?"

Please inform us of the origin of your heterodox doctrines that are among those that I have highlighted with dot points above.

 

[Zeena]

• you are a Christian;
• you don't believe the Bible is the infallible word of God;
• the Bible was written over several centuries,
• the Bible was edited (redacted),
• the Bible was added to (supplemented)
• The Bible was variously translated.
• In spite of the above doctrine, you are still a spiritual person and don't expect this to disqualify you from participating in this Forum.
• you don't believe in original sin.
• we (human beings) are vastly imperfect but not condemned.
• much of biblical literature is veiled in mystery.
• there is more than one interpretation of Scripture.

Umm, which one of these statements (besides the first) is untrue?

The Bible is inspired, not infalliable. --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy
(Tho, I might argue for the infalliability of the original text, what little we have that is)
The Bible was written over several centuries. Dating from what? Moses to John?
The Bible was [may have been] edited ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16 )and, obviously, we have many differing translations with us today.
There is more than one intpretation, obviously. Tell us why you believe differing denominations each have their own.
The 'mystery' itself is stated by Paul. Veiled to those who believe not.
And, oh yes, can't forget this one; Original sin is a false doctrine.

For someone to state these facts, as they have come to know and believe, does not disqualify them from participating on Christian forums according to any rules that I'm aware of.

Under what rule do you threaten the sponsorship of our brother?

For you to question this persons sonship through Christ because of his perception may jeopardise your own membership..

"Do not state or imply that another member or group of members who have identified themselves as Christian are not Christian."

http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0

Why are you angry with this person?
Because he doesn't agree with this theory?
That's not a reason to be angry with your brother .

Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

With your view of the Bible and Christianity, nearly every point of which can be challenged, then you want us to tell you where original sin came from. Augustine?

Isn't it?

Many Christians who profess to believe in the doctrine of original sin do not know what it teaches. Even more Christians are ignorant of its history and origin: that it had its roots in a heathen philosophy, that it has evolved, and that it was made a dogma of the Roman Catholic Church in the fifth century A.D., primarily by the influence of Augustine.

1. The Augustinian Theory. This is also called the Theory of Adam's Natural Headship and the Realistic Theory. This theory was formulated by Augustine in the fifth century A.D. The Augustinian Theory affirms that, by virtue of organic unity, the whole human race existed in Adam at the time of his transgression. It says that Adam's will was the will of the species, so that in Adam's free act, the will of the race revolted against God, and the nature of the race corrupted itself. All men existed as one moral person in Adam, so that in Adam's sin we sinned, we corrupted ourselves, and we brought guilt and merited condemnation upon ourselves.

2. The Federal Theory. This theory is also called the Theory of Condemnation by Covenant and the Immediate Imputation Theory. It had its origin with Cocceius in the 17th century A.D. According to this theory, God made a covenant with Adam, agreeing to bestow upon all his descendants eternal life for his obedience, but making the penalty for his disobedience to be the condemnation of all his descendants. Since our legal representative or federal head did sin, God imputes his sin, guilt, and condemnation to all his descendants. It was thought that this theory was necessary because of the problem in the Augustinian Theory of accounting for the non-imputation of the subsequent sins of Adam and less remote ancestors for if real existence in Adam explained our responsibility for his first sin, why should not real existence in Adam and in subsequent ancestors make us guilty for those sins, too?

3. The Theory of Mediate Imputation. This theory is also called the Theory of Condemnation for Depravity. This is the theory formulated by Placeus in the 17th century A.D. Placeus originally denied that Adam's sin was in any way imputed to his posterity. But when his first view was condemned by the Synod of the French Reformed Church in 1644, he published this later view. According to this view, all men are born with a depraved nature and are guilty and condemnable for that nature. They are not viewed as being guilty because of the sin of Adam, as in the Federal Theory. Instead it is the corrupted nature which they inherit from Adam that is sufficient cause and legal ground for God to condemn them.

Source --> Origin and History of the Doctrine of Original Sin

In fact the doctrine of original sin, inherited sin, imputed sin or sinful nature comes straight from the Scriptures. See, "Is there original sin?"

David wrote in Psalm 51:5, “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.” (NASB). The NIV’s translation is even clearer. “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.”

What makes this incredible doctrine believable is the fact that there are verses in the Bible which seem to teach it. Psalm 51:5 comes immediately to the mind of the Christian who has been taught to believe in the doctrine of original sin: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." This settles it for the Christian. If the Bible says we were "shapen in iniquity" and "conceived in sin," then it has to be so.

And the above text would teach that men are born sinners if it were meant to be taken literally. But the language of this text is not literal, it is figurative. Both context and reality demand a figurative interpretation of this text.

For example, let's compare Psalm 51:5 with Job 1:21, which says: "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither." If Psalm 51:5 can be interpreted literally to teach the doctrine that David and all other men are born sinners, then Job 1:21 can be interpreted literally to teach the doctrine that Job and all other men will some day go back into their mother's womb.

Neither Psalm 51:5 nor Job 1:21 is to be understood literally. They are both figurative expressions. Both context and our knowledge of reality demand a figurative interpretation of these two texts.

David uses figurative language throughout his Psalms. In fact, in the 51st Psalm, verses five, seven, and eight are all figurative expressions. So if verse five can be made to teach that men are born sinners, then verse seven can be made to teach that hyssop cleanses us from sin when it says, "Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean." Also, verse eight can be made to teach the doctrine that God breaks the Christian's bones when he sins, and that his broken bones rejoice when he is forgiven "Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice."

ibid.

In Psalm 58:3 David wrote, “Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.”

Another of David's Psalms, Psalm 58:3, can be made to teach the astonishing doctrine that babies speak from the very moment they are born: "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."

But who would seriously teach from this last text that babies actually do speak as soon as they are born? None of these passages is meant to be understood in a literal sense. They are all figurative expressions. If they were understood literally, they would all teach what we know to be contrary to reality; for reality teaches us that bones don't rejoice, hyssop doesn't purge sin, babies don't speak as soon as they leave the womb, and an unborn child is not morally depraved.

The same rules of interpretation that would permit Psalm 51:5 to teach that babies are born sinners, would, if applied to these passages (or if applied to many other passages in the Bible), allow for every kind of perversion and wild interpretation of God's Word.

Look again at the words of Job 1:21: "Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither." Did Job, by these words, mean to teach that he and all other men would some day go back into their mother's womb? We know that such a meaning is absurd. But it is just as reasonable to give to Job 1:21 the nonsensical meaning that Job and all other men will some day go back into their mother's womb, as it is to give to Psalm 51:5 the nonsensical meaning that David and all other men are born sinners. David was not teaching in this passage that he was born a sinner. He instead was confessing to God the awful guilt and sinfulness of his heart, and he cried out to God in strong language the language of figure and symbol to express that awful guilt and sinfulness. But if David intended to affirm that he was literally "shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin," then he affirmed absolute nonsense, and he charged his Creator with making him a sinner; for David knew that God was his Maker:

Thy hands have made me and fashioned me. Psalm 119:73

You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body, and knit them together in my mother's womb. Psalm 139:13 (Living Bible)
Know ye that the Lord he is God: It is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves. Psalm 100:3

Are we to understand from these passages that God fashions men into sinners in their mother's womb? No, we know that God does not create sinners. Yet, upon the supposition that Psalm 51:5 teaches that men are born sinners, these texts could teach nothing else. Who cannot see that the doctrine that men are born sinners charges God with creating sinners? It represents man as being formed a sinner in his mother's womb, when the Bible clearly teaches that God forms man in his mother's womb. It represents man as coming into this world a sinner, when the Bible clearly teaches that God creates all men. It may be objected that God created only Adam and Eve, and that the rest of mankind descended from them by natural generation. But this objection does not relieve the doctrine of an inherited sin nature of its slander and libel of the character of God. For if man has a sinful nature at birth, who is it who established the laws of procreation under which he would be born with that nature? God, of course. There is no escaping the logical inference that is implicit in the doctrine of an inherited sin nature. It is a blasphemous and slanderous libel on the character of God.

ibid.

Then note Paul’s statement in Eph. 2:1-3, “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.” (NIV)

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

One of those translation differences our friend mentioned

THE "SCANDAL" OF THE NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION

Jeremiah 31:29-30
In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.